Spiritual Babylon

[k4c]

Deleted

 

[ricker]

Anyone who has spent some quality time studying Daniel and Revelation and reading historical records will have no problem identifying Papal Rome as spiritual Babylon. Why spiritual Babylon? Because all of the pagan beliefs and practices from Babylon were passed down to Rome and were filtered into Papal Rome and christianized. Babylon practiced sun worship, so does Papal Rome. Babylon believed in the immortal soul, so does Papal Rome. The king of Babylon erected a great image he called, God. He ordered everyone, through penalty of death, to worship this image. The king of Papal Rome also erected a great image he called, God. Instead of this image being formed out of gold it was made in the form of a doctrine called, the trinity. The king of Papal Rome also ordered everyone, through penalty of death, to worship this image and just about the whole world is bowing down and even helping the Pope to enforce its worship. We see the same thing happening with the seventh day Sabbath.

God says, "Come out of her my people lest you partake of her sins".

And your mood says "thinking".

Lots of Christians who regularly worship on the first day of the week and believe that the soul is eternal and believe in the Trinity think Rome is the antichrist like you do.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

And your mood says "thinking".

Lots of Christians who regularly worship on the first day of the week and believe that the soul is eternal and believe in the Trinity think Rome is the antichrist like you do.

Alot of people that work for the government believe it's corrupt but they continue to be affiliated with it...

 

[JohnMarsten]

Alot of people that work for the government believe it's corrupt but they continue to be affiliated with it...

I guess that is not the same, take the civil servants in Britain for example, they are serving the government no matter who makes the government...

One cannot simply leave ones position just because the government is corrupt, besides there will always be something that is wrong and stuff...

church situations are different, at least for me,

I must admit that I didnt study all of them church teachings years ago, just kept to what I personally believe/believed (for example never accepted any kind of health reform that went beyond the division of unclean meats...)

Once an elder approached me telling me that apparently his wife has seen me in town - apparently drunk, I would rather guess she might have seen me having a beer somewhere - I told him that I dont really believe in abstinence for the bible doesnt necessarily require it nor does God call it sin in general. He in turn told me there are certain rules in each and every church that one should abide...

Question: Can one be a member of the SDA church abiding only by the rules he or she personally believes in, completely disregarding things like alcohol, even openly admitting to be doing it, I mean I wouldnt wanna lie abou it..??

 

[k4c]

You can have the number on your forehead, which has to do with worship. When someone has the mark on their you can't question anything about the system they worship, they will fight you tooth and nail and might even kill you.

When you have the mark on your hand you may not be worshiping the system but you are believing and practicing what the system is teaching. With this you can speak against the system but no against the teachings. If you speak against the teaching they will fight you tooth and nail and might even kill you. Look up Michael Servetus and John Calvin. Is this the Spirit of Christ or the spirit of antichrist?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Question: Can one be a member of the SDA church abiding only by the rules he or she personally believes in, completely disregarding things like alcohol, even openly admitting to be doing it, I mean I wouldnt wanna lie abou it..??

I hate that word "membership" when it comes to church.... it smacks of exclusivity which is not what Jesus was about.

I read an interesting quote from sister White last week that said, telling someone to stop a sinful habit will not effect the change in the person. Only the Holy Spirit can cause a man to truly change... it puts the current practice of judgement and lordship among Adventists in it's proper light.

A person should be welcomed into the church as long as they are desirous of knowing the Lord irregardless of where they are in their walk with Him....

 

[JohnMarsten]

I hate that word "membership" when it comes to church.... it smacks of exclusivity which is not what Jesus was about.

I read an interesting quote from sister White last week that said, telling someone to stop a sinful habit will not effect the change in the person. Only the Holy Spirit can cause a man to truly change... it puts the current practice of judgement and lordship among Adventists in it's proper light.

A person should be welcomed into the church as long as they are desirous of knowing the Lord irregardless of where they are in their walk with Him....

on the other hand Paul advised us to make people leave who are evil, I guess there has to be some limits, in the end it probably is the way you put it, people who are desirous of knowing the Lord... and such will try to get rid of sin in of their own accord, however, like I said with the alcohol example, some people may not recognize the fact that alcohol in general is sin but the SDA is trying to build an outward appearance of holiness, meaning as long as you dont drink and smoke it will be OK. and this is what I disagree with...

 

[k4c]

on the other hand Paul advised us to make people leave who are evil, I guess there has to be some limits, in the end it probably is the way you put it, people who are desirous of knowing the Lord... and such will try to get rid of sin in of their own accord, however, like I said with the alcohol example, some people may not recognize the fact that alcohol in general is sin but the SDA is trying to build an outward appearance of holiness, meaning as long as you dont drink and smoke it will be OK. and this is what I disagree with...

I have no problem with having people leave who are living an unrepented sinful lifestyle that's beginning to effect the rest of the congregation. The proplem is when the church calls and enforces something as sinful when God doesn't.

 

[Stryder06]

I'm sorry but for clarification's sake: are you saying that the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine of Babylon?

 

[k4c]

I'm sorry but for clarification's sake: are you saying that the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine of Babylon?

It all depends on how you define the godhead using the word, trinity.

 

[Stryder06]

It all depends on how you define the godhead using the word, trinity.

That doesn't answer my question nor clarify anything. How can one define the Trinity outside of how it is defined?

 

[k4c]

That doesn't answer my question nor clarify anything. How can one define the Trinity outside of how it is defined?

There are a few ways and neither one is an easy study. This is why I have a problem with people using the trinity doctrine as a bases for fellowship, salvation and even personal safety.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/michael-servetus.htm

I believe in a trinity or tri-unity in that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are working towards the same unified goal. I believe Jesus had a preexistance before His virgin birth. What form and what timeline is open to interpretation. We know He was with the Father before creation, along with the rest of the angelic host but there is not one verses that says He is eternal or that we need to believe He is eternal to believe He is divine.

 

[Stryder06]

Being eternal is part of God's nature. Doesn't God say that ther was no god before Him? If Jesus is God but didn't exist for a time, how could that apply? And how did He become God? Did the Father create a demi-god? This seems to be some dangerous territory you're fishing through.

 

[k4c]

Being eternal is part of God's nature. Doesn't God say that ther was no god before Him? If Jesus is God but didn't exist for a time, how could that apply? And how did He become God? Did the Father create a demi-god? This seems to be some dangerous territory you're fishing through.

We have to interpret words the way God interprets them. Just because someone is given the title, God, does not mean he is eternal or equal with the Father.

John 14:28 Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

Here is the order and authority.

1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus was battling this same, God title, argument in His day. God defines the title, God, with anyone who is the position of authority or with someone God speaks through. Jesus was dealing with the same issue you have with someone being called, God. Listen to one such argument.

John 10:33-36 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”? “If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), “do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Jesus had both the authority and was speaking for the Father because the fullness of God.

We too can have the fullness of God in us.

Eph 3:19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

God was in Jesus speaking through Him and doing all the miracles through Him.

John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know–

John 3:34 "For Jesus whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

I have no problem with anyone believing Jesus is eternal as a personal belief but to say unless I believe it I am not a christain or even saved and if I attempt to find truth I am said to be treading on dangeous grounds.

The Bible says clearly, eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus whom He sent.

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Anytime man devises a doctrine and enforces it with fear of excommunication, salvation and even death that doctrine needs to be tested. Especially if it came from Papal Rome and people were killed because of it.

 

[ricker]

There are a few ways and neither one is an easy study. This is why I have a problem with people using the trinity doctrine as a bases for fellowship, salvation and even personal safety.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/michael-servetus.htm

I believe in a trinity or tri-unity in that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are working towards the same unified goal. I believe Jesus had a preexistance before His virgin birth. What form and what timeline is open to interpretation. We know He was with the Father before creation, along with the rest of the angelic host but there is not one verses that says He is eternal or that we need to believe He is eternal to believe He is divine.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Jesus existed before there was anything. To me that says He is eternal.

 

[k4c]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Jesus existed before there was anything. To me that says He is eternal.

The word, logos, is not a person. Bible translators that are influenced by a trinity mindset call the word, logos, a he but other translators call logos an it.

Jesus had memory of His existance before His birth. How can logos retain memory?

Do you believe the Angel of the Lord is logos?

 

[ricker]

The word, logos, is not a person. Bible translators that are influenced by a trinity mindset call the word, logos, a he but other translators call logos an it.

Jesus had memory of His existance before His birth. How can logos retain memory?

Do you believe the Angel of the Lord is logos?

If you can't see this is referring to Jesus, I will move on down the line.

 

[k4c]

If you can't see this is referring to Jesus, I will move on down the line.

Jesus had two wills. He had to resist His will to obey the Father's will. Which will was logos? Was it Jesus' will or the Father's will?

Jesus spoke His Father's words even though He had His own words. Which one is the logos, Jesus' words or the Father's words.

 

[ricker]

Jesus had two wills. He had to resist His will to obey the Father's will. Which will was logos? Was it Jesus' will or the Father's will?

Jesus spoke His Father's words even though He had His own words. Which one is the logos, Jesus' words or the Father's words.

I was explaining one reason why most people believe Jesus is eternal. It is accepted and logical that John 1 is referring to Christ. Believe what you want about logos.

 

[Princessdi]

A better question first, JM. Are all SDAs(worldwide) required to observe ALL of the rules?

I guess that is not the same, take the civil servants in Britain for example, they are serving the government no matter who makes the government...

One cannot simply leave ones position just because the government is corrupt, besides there will always be something that is wrong and stuff...

church situations are different, at least for me,

I must admit that I didnt study all of them church teachings years ago, just kept to what I personally believe/believed (for example never accepted any kind of health reform that went beyond the division of unclean meats...)

Once an elder approached me telling me that apparently his wife has seen me in town - apparently drunk, I would rather guess she might have seen me having a beer somewhere - I told him that I dont really believe in abstinence for the bible doesnt necessarily require it nor does God call it sin in general. He in turn told me there are certain rules in each and every church that one should abide...

Question: Can one be a member of the SDA church abiding only by the rules he or she personally believes in, completely disregarding things like alcohol, even openly admitting to be doing it, I mean I wouldnt wanna lie abou it..??