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Speaking in Tongues?

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princess_ballet

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I'm Catholic, but some of my friends are Pentocostal. I was invited to their church one day for a visiting pastor and for their youth group. I went and I have some questions.

Why does the Catholic church feel about talking in tongues? :p The whole thing didn't seem very real to me. I know that the aposltes did it, but not in the same context.

And they believe that church service should be spur of the moment type thing. They also say that if you won't pray outloud to God, then you have something to hide. I don't agree with that though. I believe that my relasionship with God is special and not everyone needs to know what I'm telling him. What do you think about this?

:sigh:

Thanks
 

Miss Shelby

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Why does the Catholic church feel about talking in tongues? The whole thing didn't seem very real to me. I know that the aposltes did it, but not in the same context.
If I were you, I would ask a priest about this. The Church does believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still here today, but I wouldn't want to drift away from Church supervision if I were to explore this.
They also say that if you won't pray outloud to God, then you have something to hide.
This is a new one on me. These are probably some of the same people who will tell you you don't need to confess your sins to a priest, you can just go straight to God.

I'd tell them you don't want everyone on the entire face of the planet knowing what you have to say God all of the time. :)

However, I don't see anything wrong with group prayer.

Michelle
 
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patriarch

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princess_ballet said:
I'm Catholic, but some of my friends are Pentocostal. I was invited to their church one day for a visiting pastor and for their youth group. I went and I have some questions.

Why does the Catholic church feel about talking in tongues? :p The whole thing didn't seem very real to me. I know that the aposltes did it, but not in the same context.

And they believe that church service should be spur of the moment type thing. They also say that if you won't pray outloud to God, then you have something to hide. I don't agree with that though. I believe that my relasionship with God is special and not everyone needs to know what I'm telling him. What do you think about this?

:sigh:

Thanks

The Catholic Church recognizes the charismatic gifts, charismatics, and charismatic prayer groups. In fact, for Pentecost of 1998 Pope John Paul invited various movements to Rome, among them Focolare, the Neo-catechumenal Way and etc, but bigger by far than any of them was the Catholic Charismatic Renewal...where the gift of tongues, prophecy and healing are all very evident. The Pope entrusted the evangelization of the world to these groups in a very special way. Catholic Charismatics number about 5,000,000 throughout the world, with the bulk being in South America, I believe.

Speaking personally, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1968, received the gift of tongues, and about a year later the gift of prophecy. It's been a while since I've been to a prayer meeting, but nevertheless when I have my back against the wall physically, emotionally, spiritually, the gift of tongues has come in very handy on several occasions. "He who prays in a tongues edifies (that is, builds up) himself..."

Find yourself a Catholic prayer group, and don't let anyone draw you away from Our Lady, the Eucharist, the Church, the Pope and true doctrine. Without submission to the doctrinal authority of the Church, the pentecostal movement can get very silly indeed, while submitted to it, it can be an enormous force for good for yourself personally and for the Church.
 
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jukesk9

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princess_ballet said:
They also say that if you won't pray outloud to God, then you have something to hide. I don't agree with that though. I believe that my relasionship with God is special and not everyone needs to know what I'm telling him. What do you think about this?

Thanks

Good answer. I've heard the praying aloud thing taken to the extreme that God won't hear you unless you prayed aloud--this coming from a member of the United Pentecostal Church (Oneness, Jesus Only folks). Anyway, I believe the problem with that kind of thinking is that you are putting a limit on God.
 
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Benedicta00

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Coptic,

The two are different. Baptism in the spirit and confirmation. Baptism in the spirit is not a sacrament but is a manifestation of what was given at confirmation, which are the gifts of the spirit. We all have them although they may not be manifested.
 
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MariaRegina

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Shelb5 said:
Coptic,

The two are different. Baptism in the spirit and confirmation. Baptism in the spirit is not a sacrament but is a manifestation of what was given at confirmation, which are the gifts of the spirit. We all have them although they may not be manifested.

Dear Michelle:

Are you the same Michelle who uses the name "Miss Shelby"

It seems like you two are one and the same.

YSIC
Elizabeth
 
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CopticOrthodox

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Thanks, but can you explain more what you mean by Baptism of the Spirit? Is it a one time thing? I mean, when I think of this term I think of Pentecostals falling over slain in the Spirit & stuff since that's all I've had extensive contact with other than one Charismatic Catholic parish I've seen a little. I mean, when the Holy Spirit speaks through the priest during the homily, this is a gift of the Spirit, but there's no Baptism of the Spirit that precedes it, only Chrismation & Ordination. Of all the gifts of the Spirit, only toungs, prophacy & interpretation fit in with the Baptism in the Spirit stuff I've seen from Protestants, how do all the gifts fit in in Catholic understanding? I mean, if a person is given one gift of the Spirit, is that their Baptism of the Spirit, or is the Baptism of the Spirit something distinct which preceeds the first gift their given? Sorry if I'm not making any sense, I'm just trying to understand exactly what it is you mean.
 
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Benedicta00

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Coptic,

I don’t know if this is the correct answer but here is what I think. I also used to be confused about this too.

It is more or less when the Holy Spirit comes over you and you receive this new out pouring or anointing, you suddenly feel on fire or intoxicated with the holy Spirit, that is the best way I can describe it. One becomes very sensitive to the Holy Spirit and very close to the Holy Spirit after this happens.

At ones confirmation it can happen [it should] if the person is sensitive to the Holy Spirit and open to his gifts, but sadly in the Roman Church not may 13 years old are.

Baptism in the Spirit usually occurs when someone prayers over you to receive this anointing or you pray for it yourself. It is a manifestation of your confirmation but it is not a sacrament. The gifts can come right after or they can be developed, or they may not be any visible gifts, they could be subtle but that does not mean that one did not experience the Holy Spirit. It is growing closer to the Holy spirit that lives in you.

Being slain in the spirit is not being baptized in the Spirit. Being slain is when you are being convicted or purified by the spirit. God can used those with certain gifts of the spirit to touch certain people in order to either bring them to repentance or to deepen their relationship with God. At healing masses and prayer services those who are slain usually will "awaken" to go straight to the tabernacle and pray to Jesus or maybe some will go to confession after being away from the sacraments for years. Its purpose is to touch a person’s soul and bring them to God but the person must be open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is not a baptism in of itself but I imagine a person could receive a new anointing through this experience.

Also the gift of tears is given for this same reason. Sometimes instead of being slain a person will cry almost uncontrolably because the Holy Spirit is convicting them or bringing them closer to God. in either case they basically have been touched by the Holy Spirit.

It also should be noted that having gifts does not mean a person is anymore holier than one with out manifested gifts, they are being used for a purpose and this is not evidence that they are holy. Jesus said those who prophesied in his name he will say “depart from me I never knew you.” Rather it is the fruits of the Holy Spirit that speak to ones level of holiness, not the gifts.

I also imagine that a person can have certain gifts with out being “Charismatic” according to God’s will he gives the gifts. An unbeliever can have gifts if it is God’s will to accomplish God’s plan.

We also have free will so a person can use their gifts for evil as well. Many fall pray to the new age movement and the things of the occult.

I personally believe a person can be born with certain gifts and through a relationship with the Holy Spirit those gifts are brought to fruition but outside the Holy Spirits guidance, disaster can happen that is why being obedient to the Church is so important because one can become confused and tempted by other spirits under the guise of the Holy Spirit. The Church is our only true way we have to “test the Spirits.”
 
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Benedicta00

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CopticOrthodox said:
I guess we see things differently since in the East Chrismation is given immediatly after Baptism and people are raised in relation with all three persons rather than leaving Chrismation & Communion until one can understand.

The Roman Church used to do that as well, I guess when we all used to be in union, it is one of those things that changed, I can't recall right now when and why it was.

Are they any Orthodox that are Charismatic?
 
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MariaRegina

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Shelb5 said:
Are they any Orthodox that are Charismatic?

Dearest Michelle:

There are some Orthodox Christians who call themselves "charismatics" but they are not the norm.

Let me explain.

Benny Hinn is an excommunicated Orthodox Christian. A "charismatic" Orthodox Christian Priest down in Florida started to follow Benny Hinn's teachings, so the Greek Orthodox Church excommunicated this priest and defrocked him. As a result, the "charismatics" are looked upon as a fringe group and we don't hear much about them.

We do have an abundance of true charismatics, however. These are people who live saintly lives. These are the people whom you can find in a local Orthodox parish. They come to every service. They never complain. They are the first to offer aid or to bring a dish when someone dies. Just godly men and women, who love Christ and edify all by their charity and kindly words. These are the true charismatics, who radiate God's love to all they meet.

There was this monk in Greece (I'm not sure he is still alive) who had the gift of tongues. An atheist French woman went to see him because she had some questions about the faith. For the first few minutes her interpreter would translate from French to Greek and then from Greek to French, but suddenly she noticed that she could understand the Priest perfectly without the need of the translator. The translator was confused at first because the woman continued to speak rapidly in French and the monk would respond rapidly in Greek, yet they both understood each other, as they spoke about the wonders of God. After this experience she converted to Christianity and entered a monastery in Greece. So, through the gift of tongues she was converted by the Holy Spirit.

Then we have the wonderful example of St. Seraphim of Sarov who received and spoke with people from all over the world (in many different tongues), who could see future events (told a man that his wife would life), who could read into your very soul and reveal unconfessed sins, who healed the sick, who cured the mentally ill, who could see at an impossible distance that you were coming and what you were thinking, and who radiated love of Christ so much that he became literally a living Flame through theosis. He even loved God's creatures so much that he would take the shirt off his back and let the mosquitoes have their meal so that his back would be covered with bites. (Note the Church would caution us not to follow that example today.)

There are many truly saintly people in the Orthodox Church - even today - who are saints and who do marvelous deeds as true followers of Christ. I would have to call these people true charismatics because they truly possess the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Today there is a Greek Orthodox Monastery, St. Anthony, in Florence, Arizona. My friends who have visited and who have spoken with the elderly monks say that these monks are like angels. To speak with them is to truly speak with a living saint. Their eyes can pierce your soul and reveal your inner thoughts without you ever saying a word.

I was told that in the Early Church before the schism, when the people who converted as adults were accepted into the Church, one of the signs that they were ready to receive the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion) was that they were already living a saintly life. One example is our Holy Ambrose, the Bishop of Milan. When he was still a catechumen and an election was being held for a new Bishop, a young child said, "Ambrose shall be Bishop." Within a space of one week, Ambrose was baptized, chrismated, received Holy Communion, made Deacon, followed by Holy Ordination to the Holy Priesthood and then consecrated to the episcopacy. He was already on fire with the Holy Spirit before his Baptism.

Do you remember reading Acts when the apostles came across some people who had already received the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the gifts of the Holy Spirit? These people had not received Baptism yet. So they were immediately instructed in the Faith and given Baptism.

Today there is a shrine here in Southern California, right next to a Roman Catholic Church, and every day of the week, the Orthodox Priest opens the church so that the Catholics can come in to be blessed with the oil of St. Nectarios. This is the lovely new Church, St. Nectarios Shrine of Covina, California, where a holy relic from St. Nectarios is kept. Here lots of miracles are happening as I speak. People who are blind can see, cancers of all kinds are cured, the lame can walk, the deaf can hear. Since the Orthodox Priest does not try to convert the Catholics, the Catholics have received permission to visit the shrine.

Hope this helps.

Lovingly yours in Christ,

Elizabeth
 
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CopticOrthodox

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Shelb5 said:
Are they any Orthodox that are Charismatic?

There's nothing in the Orthodoxy Church similar to the Charismatic movement, but this isn't because of a lack of moving of the Holy Spirit, but becasue devotion to, and believe in the power of the Holy Spirit never wained in the East, so there never needed to be a movement to restore it. A friend of mine said he served at the altar with some priests who were visiting at a nearby Church who were spirit-born, ie they can move from one place to another instantly. Our previous Pope, Pope Kyrollos worked many miracles, including healing thousands, and has continued to do so since he departed. The father of one person I know visited a monastary and a monk there told him something about them revealed to them by God so he could deal with it. My priest had a bishop go up to him and ask him if he'd ever thought about the priesthood, and later admit that he didn't know he was going to do it. This was after he'd been hearing God tell him this would happen for 3 days. This kind of stuff has always been common, so there's been no need for a movement to restore it.
 
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Benedicta00

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Elizabeth,

Did Benny Hinn begin his Charismatic movement while he was a practicing orthodox?

This is the reason why those who have been given certain gifts need be obedient to the Church because look what can happen.

The Charismatic movement/renewal is not so much one living a saintly life, those are the fruits of the Holy Spirit, not the gifts but living a holy life is what we are all called and led by the Spirit to do.

Charismatics use gifts to build the Church in a particular way, like the gift of deliverance or healing. Those with these gifts aid the Church in prayer, for whom the Spirit leads them to pray for or over. It is not quite the same thing as living a holy life, that is really not how one defines Charismatics although we hope everyone is living a holy life and as I mentioned before, one can have gifts and not be holy if they do not use their gifts under the obedience of the Church, Benny Hinn is an example. You can have valid gifts and use them recklessly.

I believe the tongues that you describe the monk as having is a particular gift not exactly the same as the commonly known gift of tongues but I do not know a whole lot about that. I think that is a separate gift of tongues though.
 
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MariaRegina

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Shelb5 said:
Did Benny Hinn begin his Charismatic movement while he was a practicing orthodox? This is the reason why those who have been given certain gifts need be obedient to the Church because look what can happen.

My Dearest Joy in Christ, Michelle:

Christ is Risen!

Benny Hinn left the Orthodox Faith as a teenager, according to a biography I read, and followed in the footsteps of the tele-evangelicals, especially Margaret Kullman - "I believe in miracles." Since he mentioned his Orthodox background and Orthodox Christians were following his teachings, the Orthodox Church had to excommunicate him publicly.

Please pray for Benny Hinn. I heard that he was starting to believe in the Eucharist again. From what I remember he tried to receive Communion in the Catholic Church. I think the sacrament was denied him. We must pray that he grows in the faith and returns to the Church.

Shelb5 said:
The Charismatic movement/renewal is not so much one living a saintly life...

It is not quite the same thing as living a holy life, that is really not how one defines Charismatics although we hope everyone is living a holy life and as I mentioned before, one can have gifts and not be holy if they do not use their gifts under the obedience of the Church, Benny Hinn is an example.

I think this is precisely why the Orthodox Church frowns on the "Charismatic movement". All Christians are called to be holy - set apart. Our Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist are supposed to confirm our holiness in Christ. St. Ambrose of Milan is a perfect example of what the Church expects of catechumens. The Church gave the sacraments to the holy ones to confirm them in the Holy Spirit.

Here lies the problem. How can an unholy person be spirit-filled or even receive the Holy Spirit in Confirmation? Except for Holy Confession, the Holy Sacraments confirm our life in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit recreates us in Christ so that we can become Christ to all we meet. This is very Catholic theology. This is the life of sanctity. The saints possess the Holy Spirit and that is why they can work miracles and do the work of the Holy Spirit.

We are all called to be saints - to be holy - to be spirit-filled. Apart from the Church and her Holy Sacraments, we cannot grow in holiness.

Saint Seraphim of Sarov stated, "Acquire the Holy Spirit and a thousand souls will be converted." He truly lived a spirit-filled live and became a pillar of fire - a living vessel of God -- a temple of the Holy Spirit. He was not unique. We are all temples of the Holy Spirit according to St. Paul and we should all be living holy lives.

Shelb5 said:
You can have valid gifts and use them recklessly.

Yes, we all have to be very careful here, whether we believe in the Charismatic movement or not.

Even the devils can give gifts to the unholy and deceive even the elect. I am not saying that the "charismatics" are devil-filled. No. Visit Brazil and you will see the miracles worked in the name of the devil. Anyone can be deceived if they are outside the Church.

Another problem is pride. Without the guidance received in Holy Confession, people can be deceived by pride and then become the tools of the devil himself.

Please, understand, I am not condemning the Charismatics but I am only pointing out the dangers, as I used to be in the Charismatic Movement. The leaders were constantly pointing out the dangers of pride and the deception of the devil. One of the biggest dangers I saw there was the idea that if you weren't healed, then you didn't have enough faith. Or that if you didn't fall down backwards you were resisting the Holy Spirit. Do you see the abuse that can occur? Too many people focus on the gifts and how they can be cured, and not on repentance and living saintly lives by frequenting the sacraments.

Shelb5 said:
I believe the tongues that you describe the monk as having is a particular gift not exactly the same as the commonly known gift of tongues but I do not know a whole lot about that. I think that is a separate gift of tongues though.

The early church was indeed spirit-filled but as new converts came into the Church (and everyone was a convert then), abuses started to occur. This is one reason why St. Paul wrote his epistles. Shortly afterward, the Church forbade the use of "tongues" inside the Church.
Prophecy has continued, but not within the Divine Liturgy. There are still saints today who have uttered prophetic warnings.

Yes, if you read THE MOUNTAIN OF SILENCE, by Kyriacos Markides (available through Amazon.com) you will read the story of a Greek Orthodox Monk who saved a Catholic monastery in Italy, although he had never visited that monastery. This Orthodox hermit gave a prophetic warning to a visiting Catholic priest and saved their monastery from certain destruction. (If you insist perhaps I can copy the excerpt from that book. It is profound.)

Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
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MariaRegina

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CopticOrthodox said:
There's nothing in the Orthodoxy Church similar to the Charismatic movement, but this isn't because of a lack of moving of the Holy Spirit, but because devotion to, and believe in the power of the Holy Spirit never waned in the East, so there never needed to be a movement to restore it. A friend of mine said he served at the altar with some priests who were visiting at a nearby Church who were spirit-born, ie they can move from one place to another instantly.

Re: NO LACK OF DEVOTION TO THE ALL-HOLY SPIRIT

Great quote, dearest Coptic Brother in Christ!



Christ is Risen, my joys!

Dearest Michelle and Coptic Brother:

Re: BI-LOCATION OR SPIRIT-BORN TRAVELERS

The Catholics venerate St. Padre Pio who had the gift of being in two places at once. He would warn his spiritual children of dangers by a strong scent of flowers. One time his spiritual daughter was dangerously close to falling off a cliff, but she smelled a fragrant rose and quickly moved forward to discover there was no rose around. Upon her next visit, Padre Pio told her that she must be more careful. Once during WWII, Padre Pio flew up into the sky in Italy and told a US pilot not to bomb his monastery!

St. Martin de Porres, of Lima, Peru, another Catholic Saint, used to bi-locate and brought ransom monies to free the Christian captives in Japan. The freed prisoners would come to Lima to personally thank St. Martin who never left Lima. Just this year, I smelled a strong scent of roses when venerating his Icon, and it was in February when there were no roses around.

There is a hieromonk (priest-monk), currently living at St. Anthony Greek Orthodox Monastery in Florence, Arizona, who has the habit of disappearing occasionally (spirit-born). He will occasionally call the monks in Arizona from Mt. Athos in Greece and tell them that he is okay and will be back shortly. He doesn't fly Virgin, he is truly spirit-born!

Another tid bit:

Have you ever visited the Coptic Monastery in Barstow, California? I've heard that St. Elijah visited the monks there not too long ago.

Lovingly yours in Christ,

Elizabeth
 
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Benedicta00

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Elizabeth,

think this is precisely why the Orthodox Church frowns on the "Charismatic movement". All Christians are called to be holy - set apart. Our Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist are supposed to confirm our holiness in Christ. St. Ambrose of Milan is a perfect example of what the Church expects of catechumens. The Church gave the sacraments to the holy ones to confirm them in the Holy Spirit.

And I did not disagree with this at all. The Charismatic movement is to build the Church with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, we all are supposed to be holy, that is a non issue but being Charismatic is using the gifts that God decides to manifest in you, like the gift of healing. If you have this gift then you pray over and for those who need healing whether it be physical or spiritual healing.

Here lies the problem. How can an unholy person be spirit-filled or even receive the Holy Spirit in Confirmation? Except for Holy Confession, the Holy Sacraments confirm our life in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit recreates us in Christ so that we can become Christ to all we meet. This is very Catholic theology. This is the life of sanctity. The saints possess the Holy Spirit and that is why they can work miracles and do the work of the Holy Spirit.

Yes we all [confirmed and baptized Catholics and Orthodox] have the holy spirit so in a way we are all Charismatic but as Fr. Cohen used to say, the Holy Spirit is like chocolate on the bottom of the glass, one needs to stir it up in order to have it manifest. A unholy person [a sinner] would have no desire to do this, but someone in sanctifying grace who has a lot of work to do on their own perfection can still be given gifts for the Church, that is what I meant by it does not speak to ones own level of personal holiness but I was not meaning that the person was in mortal sin.

We are all called to be saints - to be holy - to be spirit-filled. Apart from the Church and her Holy Sacraments, we cannot grow in holiness.

I agree.

Saint Seraphim of Sarov stated, "Acquire the Holy Spirit and a thousand souls will be converted." He truly lived a spirit-filled live and became a pillar of fire - a living vessel of God -- a temple of the Holy Spirit. He was not unique. We are all temples of the Holy Spirit according to St. Paul and we should all be living holy lives.

Yes but the Charismatic movement is a ministry doing particular works for the evangelization and building up of the Church. The sacraments grants us our sanctification through the Holy Spirit, that is ordinary for all Catholics but being Charismatic is something different, it is a ministry.

Yes, we all have to be very careful here, whether we believe in the Charismatic movement or not.

Agreed.

Even the devils can give gifts to the unholy and deceive even the elect. I am not saying that the "charismatics" are devil-filled. No. Visit Brazil and you will see the miracles worked in the name of the devil. Anyone can be deceived if they are outside the Church.

Agreed.

Another problem is pride. Without the guidance received in Holy Confession, people can be deceived by pride and then become the tools of the devil himself.

And that is the number one danger a Catholic Charismatic is open to; himself first. Pride gets the better of them and they think they can wing it with out the Church’s guidance and then the devil gets in a takes over and that spells TROUBLE.

One of the biggest dangers I saw there was the idea that if you weren't healed, then you didn't have enough faith. Or that if you didn't fall down backwards you were resisting the Holy Spirit. Do you see the abuse that can occur? Too many people focus on the gifts and how they can be cured, and not on repentance and living saintly lives by frequenting the sacraments.

I have not been told that in Catholic circles, that is more of a Protestant thought, not Catholic. If a Catholic taught this then they were in error. The true renewal does not teach this at all, they teach God’s will be done.
 
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MariaRegina

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Michelle said:
I have not been told that in Catholic circles, that is more of a Protestant thought, not Catholic. If a Catholic taught this then they were in error. The true renewal does not teach this at all, they teach God’s will be done.

My Dearest Joy in Christ, Michelle:

Christ is in our midst! He is and always shall be!

When I was in the Catholic Charismatic movement - and I still consider myself to be filled with the Holy Spirit - although falling short sometimes, there were Protestants who would visit - even some Protestant speakers. Then we had a lot of Catholics who would go over to the Assembly of God or other Pentecostal churches. They would come back and say things which I will not repeat here, but they did sound like they had picked up some erroneous beliefs, to put it mildly. Does this still go on? The leaders in the Catholic Charismatic movement were constantly correcting these people.

However, one of the worst abuses was following certain people around for cures. People would hear that Father Hampsch was coming and there would be a flood of people just wanting cures. Some of the people who were set apart as healers were in constant danger of pride. It is a risk.

Even St. Seraphim had to be careful. People would line up at his door early in the morning. Some people he would not see; to others he would give a prophetic word through another monk.

God be with you, Michelle.

Do you have any comments here?

Lovingly in the Lord and God, JesusChrist,

Elizabeth
 
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