Speaking in Tongues and Having The Ability to Interpret Them

Are you saying then that Satan can bring false conviction and false conversions, and because it is outside of your theological frame, this must be the case?

Events that I find agreement on scripturally would be people such as Charles Finney, or Maria Woodsworth Etter, etc. Christians that were evangelistic types empowered by GOD to save souls. Where they went GOD was with them and led the charge into those areas.

ARBITER01 said:

Events that I find agreement on scripturally would be people such as Charles Finney, or Maria Woodsworth Etter, etc. Christians that were evangelistic types empowered by GOD to save souls. Where they went GOD was with them and led the charge into those areas.

Click to expand...

OK - well we know God moved sovereignly without human mediation in the OT.

We know He did it with Paul at his conversion in the NT well after Pentecost.

What scriptural support is there for God limiting the way He moves today to human mediation only?

Oscarr said:

The Scripture provides enough information for us to know God's plan of salvation and how we can become part of it, and to go on to spread the Gospel, and to provide guidelines in order to live holy lives to glorify Christ.

It was never intended to be a comprehensive manual about how God should act under every situation. We can limit the power and influence of the Holy Spirit through a hard and fast view of Scripture being the whole gambit of who God is and how He should act.

But there are promises and examples in Scripture to give us the discernment between good and evil.

I believe the report that happened during the Great Awakening on the East Coast of the United States. It falls well within the principles of the mission of the Holy Spirit, to seek and save the lost. To organise the converse of whole shiploads of travellers is something that God can quite easily do, and it is something He would do given the right circumstances. It is certainly not a violation of Scripture for God to sovereignly bring conviction of sin on whole groups of people. In the Hebrides revival. It all started off with a couple of old ladies praying, and there was a minor earth tremor rattling the dishes on the sideboard. Then they saw people coming from all directions in the town, going to the church which was opened up, and turning to Christ. The revival then spread right throughout the whole region. I think it was Duncan Campbell who was called to go and preach the Word to them and confirm the people in the faith.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Last year I taught a class that a deep dive into revival. Studied historical and biblical revivals (Hebrides was one of my favorites). When you actually take the time to study it, revivals are extremely scriptural.

This "outside of scripture" drum is just a spiritually disguised excuse. It has zero to do with actually following scripture and everything to do with self-righteousness and immaturity.

I must say that the times I have seen Him move in spectacular ways have been despite not because of me...

I think the modern theology that always puts man at the centre of His work is egocentric and deceptive.

The fact that I can a times move in faith and see the miraculous is because of what I believe He can do - not what He can use me for.

For this reason I'm not too concerned about gifts - He is the gift.

The Spirit moves as He wills and I have seen it time and again - more than I could ask or think.

I remember sitting praying with my prayer partner as we did every Monday morning at 7.

As He sat there - no special prayer - suddenly the Holy Spirit was powerfully upon him and you could physically hear the bones cracking as his back was healed.

I love that God does that as He wills.

He loves to involve us - but He doesn't need us.

Miraculous healing can take place in private as God chooses to bless and release.

God is sooooo good...

and I love Him deeply.

Carl Emerson said:

I think the modern theology that always puts man at the center of His work is egocentric and deceptive.

Click to expand...

Jesus said "Follow Me."

Is that really modern theology?

Paul said "Imitate me as I imitate Christ."

Is that egocentric and deceptive?

That is a different issue.

The matter at hand is can and does God move sovereignly in this age, bringing healing and such, without mediating through man.

I say yes.

You seem to think no (if I understand correctly)

Carl Emerson said:

I must say that the times I have seen Him move in spectacular ways have been despite not because of me...

I think the modern theology that always puts man at the centre of His work is egocentric and deceptive.

The fact that I can a times move in faith and see the miraculous is because of what I believe He can do - not what He can use me for.

For this reason I'm not too concerned about gifts - He is the gift.

The Spirit moves as He wills and I have seen it time and again - more than I could ask or think.

I remember sitting praying with my prayer partner as we did every Monday morning at 7.

As He sat there - no special prayer - suddenly the Holy Spirit was powerfully upon him and you could physically hear the bones cracking as his back was healed.

I love that God does that as He wills.

He loves to involve us - but He doesn't need us.

Miraculous healing can take place in private as God chooses to bless and release.

God is sooooo good...

and I love Him deeply.

Click to expand...

Putting man at the centre of God's work is a form of humanism and this is one of the major causes of the Holy Spirit being quenched and grieved in so many churches and religious enterprises.

ARBITER01 said:

To be honest my friend, I've never been a supporter of any sort of Acts 2 type of revival scenario since there is no biblical example of it. We do have biblical examples of anointed apostles/disciples going into areas and the power of GOD upon them performing miracles for the salvation message to be preached, but there is no arrival of GOD on His own for some sort of demonstration of power beyond Acts 2.

Click to expand...

I've no idea what this means, "..........but there is no arrival of God on his own..........."
or what its connection to my post is?

ARBITER01 said:

Again, we are to expect anointed/empowered disciples of Christ going into areas and the power of GOD flowing through them for the actions, not big amounts of people trying to pray GOD down into an area

Click to expand...

I suggest you read about the 1949 Isle of Lewis revival where it was the people crying out that God would come down. ie. It was absolutely nothing to do with an anointed/empowered disciple going into an area and the power of God flowing through them.

Duncan Campbell is always credited with that famous revival, but he denies it categorically stating it was the work of the parishioners. This brief transcript is worth reading.
Christians Together : Revival in the Hebrides (1949)

so that folks can do oddball fleshly things.

Click to expand...

Yet more guilt by association nonsense. I've never heard of anyone ever praying that God would come down so they could do oddball fleshy things.

The examples that we are to expect have to align with biblical accounts, or it is something wrong.

Click to expand...

Problem is that you only want things to match your blinkered vision of biblical events!

ARBITER01 said:

No, I just don't care about it. Just because you or anyone else presents something outside of scripture as a fact on here doesn't mean that I'm automatically suppose to agree with it.

Click to expand...

Serious question.
Do you think God is limited to only doing things already written about in scripture?

Francis Drake said:

Serious question.
Do you think God is limited to only doing things already written about in scripture?

Click to expand...

It is worse than that because it's not just "already written" it's actually, "fits MY narrative" which of course if full of irony. That is how one ends up with ridiculous statements like this:

ARBITER01 said:

To be honest my friend, I've never been a supporter of any sort of Acts 2 type of revival scenario since there is no biblical example of it.

Click to expand...

And here I thought Acts 2 was scripture and a biblical example of revival. This just verifies what I've been saying. The insistence on lining up with scripture is smoke and mirrors.

ARBITER01 said:

No, I just don't care about it. Just because you or anyone else presents something outside of scripture as a fact on here doesn't mean that I'm automatically suppose to agree with it.

Click to expand...

One of the interesting things about scripture, is that it constantly illustrates the saints doing things not revealed in scripture.
I'm not talking about contradicting previous scriptures, but just not revealed to date.

Jn21v25And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

If you insist on limiting yourself to things you read in scripture, then you are truly putting a straight jacket on what the Holy Spirit might do with you.

As I said before, the gift of tongues is an excellent weapon against demonic strongholds.

This experience is from around 30 years ago. It is not meant to be prescriptive. In all such situations we need to be led by the Holy Spirit not an instruction book.

Carl Emerson said:

That is a different issue.

The matter at hand is can and does God move sovereignly in this age, bringing healing and such, without mediating through man.

I say yes.

You seem to think no (if I understand correctly)

Click to expand...

No it's not, in fact I find it to be the very issue involved here Carl.

GOD has chosen to operate through His people to His glory. It is why the body of Christ can have a ministry in the gifts of healings, where someone can operate specifically through that gift in that particular congregation....

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

It's not that GOD can't heal apart from the gifts, of course He can, He is sovereign, but it is His preferred will to heal His people by the gifts of The Holy Spirit. Where the problem resides is with His people. Hardly anyone is reaching to GOD for such a ministry nowadays. People are just too involved in the world anymore, so Christians have to resort to direct answers from GOD in response to prayer, and sometimes that can take a lot of years to receive, whereas it could be instant from GOD through a sanctified and holy vessel of His.

Francis Drake said:

If you insist on limiting yourself to things you read in scripture, then you are truly putting a straight jacket on what the Holy Spirit might do with you.

Click to expand...

Well it comes down to your fruit, what is the fruit of your ministry?

If GOD has plans to operate through you in a very powerful way before His people, do you just do wing it and do whatever you think is best, or do you try to adhere to what Jesus did and the apostles?

What are people going to look at to judge your ministry???

I'll take the bible for 200 Alex.

See it doesn't matter if it is just between you and GOD there Francis, He can show you all sorts of interesting things to do with Him, and He will, but when it comes down to operating in front of His folks, you either abide by scripture examples or people will easily call you false or a heretic.

That's why I constantly refer back to the example that Jesus gave, He is our perfect example in all these situations. You either do it His way or people will immediately call you a crackpot, like many out there doing oddball things right now.

ARBITER01 said:

No it's not, in fact I find it to be the very issue involved here Carl.

GOD has chosen to operate through His people to His glory. It is why the body of Christ can have a ministry in the gifts of healings, where someone can operate specifically through that gift in that particular congregation....

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

It's not that GOD can't heal apart from the gifts, of course He can, He is sovereign, but it is His preferred will to heal His people by the gifts of The Holy Spirit. Where the problem resides is with His people. Hardly anyone is reaching to GOD for such a ministry nowadays. People are just too involved in the world anymore, so Christians have to resort to direct answers from GOD in response to prayer, and sometimes that can take a lot of years to receive, whereas it could be instant from GOD through a sanctified and holy vessel of His.

Click to expand...

I think the issue is that your focus is on the segment of Christianity that either doesn't move in the gifts or doesn't even believe they are for today.

My focus is on the churches that do believe in the gifts but propagate a man centred theology around their use...

Carl Emerson said:

My focus is on the churches that do believe in the gifts but propagate a man centred theology around their use...

Click to expand...

Give me an example of what you mean.

Dear ones,
I understand that we are discussing speaking in tongues and having ability to interpret them.

Let us be mindful of what we have heard:
All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills. -1 Corinthians 12:11

Dear ones,
The operation of gift of tongue, whether its form, use, discipline, freedom are EMPOWERED by Holy Spirit whom the Lord has given to us.

Dear ones,
Let us be mindful that the Holy Spirit is the one who apportions to each one of us individually, not as we will as but as He, the Holy Spirit wills.

Dear ones,
why I want to remind you to be mindful, for we have heard:

Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. -Matthew 12:31

Dear ones, I understand that you are discussing the gift of tongue, whether its form, use, discipline and freedom — dear ones, be careful not to judge those who use the gift or the gift, lest you be found to commit blasphemy against the Spirit.

Yes, I perceived that you have heard what apostle John have said :
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1

Yes dear ones, we are not to believe every spirit but to test the spirits to see whether they are from God, but we are also reminded to be mindful not to judge.

Dear ones, let us not name “mocking names” to our brethren in Christ. Dear ones, are we not called to love one another? Didn’t apostle Paul tell us to use the gift in the way of love of Christ ? Yes, he did, dear ones. Dear ones, let us not be bad examples to those who recently received the gift of tongue.

Dear ones,
Didn’t our Lord realize what people say about gift of tongue? He did. This is also what we have heard:

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" -Matthew 16:13
And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." -Matthew 16:14
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" -Matthew 16:15

So dear ones, who do people say that REVIVAL IS? Some say revival of Hebrides, others say revival of John Wesley, Charles Wesley, George Whitefield in England or revival of the Pentecostal in Azusa street.

Dear ones, what would you say to the Lord,” But who do you say that revival is ?”

Dear ones, the revival is the Holy Spirit,
and on the spiritual rock, that is, Christ —the Holy Spirit will build His church and the gates shall not prevail against it.

Dear ones,
are you concerned about what the Holy Spirit have said :

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, -1 Timothy 4:1
through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, -1 Timothy 4:2

Dear ones,
Are not more reasons for us to be united in one Spirit of God, to be likeminded in Christ and striving for the faith of the gospel? Yes.

Dear ones, I understand that many are disgusted at the sight of demons working in Toronto blessings but in the beginning it was not so.

Dear ones, let us not mock and scorn Toronto blessings but prayed for our brethren with love, that they may be delivered from the oppression of the enemies.

For we heard:
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer. -2 Corinthians 5:16

Let us not regard Toronto blessings according to the flesh. For we also heard:

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. -Galatians 6:1
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. -Galatians 6:2

Dear ones, didn’t many consider Toronto blessings caught in transgression ? Dear ones, let us humble ourselves before God, that He may give us the strength to restore our brethren in Toronto blessings in a spirit of gentleness. Let us bear their burden. Thus we fulfill the law of Christ.

Dear ones, let us remember:
To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. -1 Corinthians 12:7

So dear ones,
Let us use the gift for the common good of our brethren for all things in Christ, that the Holy Spirit leads us.

To God be glory. Amen