Speak in Tongues - essential :

Maybe we can ask the REAL JOEL -- he preaches in Houston !!

lol

Anto9us said:

It's not in Joel, but Leviticus, 1stcenturylady

Lev 11:21
Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;

Lev 11:22
Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

Lev 11:23
But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

Lev 11:24
And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.

I think a key phrase is "which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth" -- somehow how high up their legs are was seen to be a difference in kosher or not

There are other Talmud references to non-kosher locusts -- I'm just a Wild Olive Branch -- and don't care

Are locusts really Kosher?!

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The Talmud are teachings of Rabbis. There are other flying insects like flies. And fleas hop. I really don't believe there are any locusts or grasshoppers that are unclean. Personally, I've never tried a fried grasshopper, and don't intend to. Ugh!

Anto9us said:

View attachment 201671

Maybe we can ask the REAL JOEL -- he preaches in Houston !!

lol

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Sorry, he believes faith is a force. He watched too many Star Wars movies. LOL

1stcenturylady said:

Yes, I've only heard there is a sect of Pentecostals that teach on it, but I've never heard the teaching, and don't care to. I just go by my understanding of the Bible alone.

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There is an entire belief system built around this concept. Ppl love the flashy theology that let's them go ham on either satan or others.

swordsman1 said:

Again, how could there be cessationist visitors in Corinth during the apostolic age, when the definition of a cessationist is someone who believes that certain gifts ceased after the apostolic age?

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This is actually a very good point. Interesting to hear the discussions

ToBeLoved said:

There is an entire belief system built around this concept. Ppl love the flashy theology that let's them go ham on either satan or others.

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ham?

ToBeLoved said:

This is actually a very good point. Interesting to hear the discussions

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I was a cessationist and was writing a letter to a Pentecostal I was in a debate with. I quoted verses from 1 Cor. 13:8, but when I read to the end of the chapter, I stopped writing, because the truth of it hit me like a ton of bricks. I never sent the letter. I began seeking the truth, and 6 years later after years of study, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Biblicist said:

The jump from Strong's to Lexicons such as the BGAD and Louw-Nida's can be a bit daunting at first but with a bit of experience these two lexicons can radically help to transform how we currently do our studies.

With the BGAD, you will need to avoid referring to the earlier BAGD and the BAGD as they differ quite a lot from the current BGAD edition particularly with how the new edition has incorporated extended definitions and glosses.

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Biblicist said:

There will be those times when the BGAD simply falls flat so the L-N then becomes a very useful companion; of course, you might decided to eventually buy the L-N as against the BGAD and there is no reason that you shouldn't. Mind you, if you choose to go down the pathway of either the BGAD or the Louw-Nida lexicon then the good ol' Strong's Concordance definitions will be a thing of the past - there will be no return!

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For someone who makes themselves out to be an expert in lexicons I'm surprised you haven't even managed the get the name of Bauer's latest revision right. I suppose I shouldn't be too critical - its an easy mistake for an amateur to make.

1stcenturylady said:

I was a cessationist and was writing a letter to a Pentecostal I was in a debate with. I quoted verses from 1 Cor. 13:8, but when I read to the end of the chapter, I stopped writing, because the truth of it hit me like a ton of bricks. I never sent the letter. I began seeking the truth, and 6 years later after years of study, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

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And ....

Not everyone has the same calling or receives the same gifts. I don't hang doctrine on peoples experiences. God has different plans for everyone

1stcenturylady said:

ham?

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Can mean going ballistic about
Something in slang

Anto9us said:

I am seeking work -- may soon be able to afford this BAGHDAD Lexican (hope no Muslim influence)

Of course you realize, my obtaining it could well be TO TELEION - it might truly BRING IN THE KINGDOM if I was able to afford a hunnerd-and-fifty dollar lexicon

Stand by to CEASE !!

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Okay, now that I have hopefully encouraged a few to to at least buy one of the better Lexicons, such as with either the BAGD or the Louw-Nida, let me add in that as these resources are of course expensive that any such purchase should be carefully considered - if at all!

Probably the first consideration would be do you want to go down the hardcover or the software track? Even though I have a reasonable size library of paper resources which has been built up over a number of years, where I have about a dozen of my earlier lexical purchases such as with Thayer's and the the BDB (along with my earlier BAGD), I still rely heavily on my BibleWorks program which contains all of my current eleven Greek lexicons (12 if I include the old Thayer's).

My recommendation for those who are just starting out is to consider one of the major Bible programs - it will end up being far cheaper and the process of serious Bible study far more rewarding.

There are a number of great packages out there, such as Accordance, BibleWorks, Logos and others, you might want to consider Logos as they currently have a plan where you can buy their Base Starter Package (US$265.49) for a down payment of US$27.12 per month where you can add in either the BGAD or Louw-Nida lexicon or both in the payment plan. The best part is that you can add in additional resources over time to fit into our budgets.

In the meantime, I would strongly suggest that those who are considering buying these tools that they spend a bit of time understanding how the BGAD and Louw-Nida lexicons work, particularly with their strengths and weaknesses and even the mighty BGAD has its weaknesses, and weaknesses that can almost drive you into derision.

swordsman1 said:

For someone who makes themselves out to be an expert in lexicons I'm surprised you haven't even managed the get the name of Bauer's latest revision right. I suppose I shouldn't be too critical - its an easy mistake for an amateur to make.

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Hey, I am certainly an amateur when it comes to the use of the better lexicons, who knows, one day I might even progress to being that of a novice!

Where did I slip up or have I maybe confused you with the;

As for the current edition:

Anto9us said:

Well, NEWEST is always best, I guess, (hmmmm.)

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Yes, just like every new release of a Windows operating system, though hopefully they will never be as bad as their Millennium and Vista releases.

so comes up another paradox -- were writers CLOSER TO THE TIME when epistles were written at ADVANTAGE or DISADVANTAGE to today's piled higher and deeper textual gurus?

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If you are referring to the early Latin churchmen, I must admit that their material tends to leave me a bit cold especially when it comes to the things of the Spirit as most of them seem to be guessing.

I wonder what it would be like to have read Paul's letters during his time as a Roman who was well versed with the rhetorical methods that Paul employed and who had a solid command of both Latin and Greek?

The phrase "actual Pauline epistles" -- in and of itself -- is glibly thrown out as to be self-evident, but is it?

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As to each Epistle that has been attributed to Paul I see no reason to question his authorship.

Anto9us said:

Maybe we can ask the REAL JOEL -- he preaches in Houston !!

lol

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Ouch . . . how about warning us that we are about to see a large picture of the patron of Dentistry, my brand new dental crown almost popped out of its setting in horror.

Biblicist said:

Okay, now that I have hopefully encouraged a few to to at least buy one of the better Lexicons, such as with either the BAGD or the Louw-Nida, let me add in that as these resources are of course expensive that any such purchase should be carefully considered - if at all!

Probably the first consideration would be do you want to go down the hardcover or the software track? Even though I have a reasonable size library of paper resources which has been built up over a number of years, where I have about a dozen of my earlier lexical purchases such as with Thayer's and the the BDB (along with my earlier BAGD), I still rely heavily on my BibleWorks program which contains all of my current eleven Greek lexicons (12 if I include the old Thayer's).

My recommendation for those who are just starting out is to consider one of the major Bible programs - it will end up being far cheaper and the process of serious Bible study far more rewarding.

There are a number of great packages out there, such as Accordance, BibleWorks, Logos and others, you might want to consider Logos as they currently have a plan where you can buy their Base Starter Package (US$265.49) for a down payment of US$27.12 per month where you can add in either the BGAD or Louw-Nida lexicon or both in the payment plan. The best part is that you can add in additional resources over time to fit into our budgets.

In the meantime, I would strongly suggest that those who are considering buying these tools that they spend a bit of time understanding how the BGAD and Louw-Nida lexicons work, particularly with their strengths and weaknesses and even the mighty BGAD has its weaknesses, and weaknesses that can almost drive you into derision.

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We need tutorials. There is blog space here on CF Bibs.

swordsman1 said:

Let me remind you of what you said before your subsequent attempts to dodge your way out of your obvious blunder: . . . . . .

Again, how could there be cessationist visitors in Corinth during the apostolic age, when the definition of a cessationist is someone who believes that certain gifts ceased after the apostolic age?

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Oh boy, here we go again . . . and again . . . and again!
Tell me, how many discussions have you and I had over my frequent use of the terms cessationist and hardcore-cessationist, let alone with my frequent references to those who are deemed to be 'open-but-cautious'? For that matter, how many times have I explained to other members how these terms are best used -- and here you are pretending as if it is something new.

Now, what is a cessationist. Some are hardcore-cessationists such as yourself, who for whatever reason have chosen what is deemed to be a rationalist-humanist approach to the things of the Spirit. As for most who are cessationists, they are this way not so much as a result of a conscious decision but often it is a result of being raised in an environment that is little different to the Ephesian disciples who said to Paul, "We have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit". Were the Ephesians cessationists by choice, of course not, but the term still applies even if they are this way by choice or through ignorance - they are still one in the same.

Then again, many contemporary 'cessationists' are this way not because of any theological belief but merely because they believe that the Holy Spirit somehow changed his mind in that he no longer works the same way today as he once did. As most of these individuals have probably never witnessed any tangible power or presence of the Holy Spirit then I suppose, due to their lack of experience, that their worldview actually makes some sense.

And of course, as Paul wrote not only to the Churches in Corinth and Achaia but to the churches throughout the Roman world and to us down through the Ages, then his words are just as relevant, or even more relevant today than they were in his day.

Tell me, if you need any further explanations can I maybe reply using a crayon font if this would help - for goodness sake!

I see you are using your usual ploy of being ultra pedantic in order to try to deflect attention away from your obvious mistakes, this time claiming 1 Cor 12:31 should read 'graces' instead of 'gifts'. Whatever font is used, everyone can see for themselves that BDAG, along with all other lexicons, states that charisma means 'gift' throughout 1 Cor 12, including v31 (just as all bible versions have translated it), especially as I have highlighted the relevant parts in red. As you well know, the only parts I removed were the irrelevant drawn-out sections that BDAG says do not apply to 1 Cor 12 (and in doing so inadvertently removed the italic tag after the gloss).

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As I have said to you on COUNTLESS OCCASIONS, learn to understand how the BGAD (and other lexicons) use both glosses and Extended definitions. If you can demonstrate that you can figure this out then we can proceed further with the BGAD (not the BAG or BAGD) lexicon definition of charisma.

ToBeLoved said:

We need tutorials. There is blog space here on CF Bibs.

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That's a good point but at this stage I would not be confident enough with the intricacies of the BGAD to go that far, as an amateur I would love to sit through some formal sessions on its use, one day I will track down such a course within one of our Christian colleges.

Then, I suppose that those who could really use these resources but have never come across them that they would not be inclined to go to such a forum. It's really a shame that very few local churches teach their members about these things, though from experience, I have learned all too well that many salaried church staffers are just as confused as are their members.

PS. I have been using the various online resources on the BGAD and Louw-Nida and there are quite a few of them available. What they rarely seem to get into is with the paper or software options and with what packages to buy.

A good place to start with the lexicons is with the various tutorials that discuss the use of glosses and extended definitions, this information can really be helpful, even if you haven't as yet purchased a major lexicon.

If nothing else, every bookshelf should at least contain a copy of the TDNT, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, even the single volume abridged version should suffice.

ToBeLoved said:

And ....

Not everyone has the same calling or receives the same gifts. I don't hang doctrine on peoples experiences. God has different plans for everyone

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Sorry to have bored you.