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Speak in Tongues - essential :

Anto9us

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Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So - I am a "new term" = Trichotomist

Never knew that before, just thought I was someone who accepted the biblical tripartite nature of man as spirit, soul and body.

If soul and spirit are the same, how can the word of God divide them asunder?

But that is one of the side issues of this thread.

The big deal -- the big issue -- is that
THAT WHICH IS PERFECT
has in fact NOT COME YET -- no way it was the "completion of the New Testament" -- despite the plethora of CESSATIONIST TRIPE posted by commentators grabbing the "completion of the New Testament" idea out of the air and using it to bolster their "tongues have ceased" error.
 
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Albion

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Re bold..all of them .
So you have no argument.only opinion.and if ones opinion disagrees with the word of God...it ain't God that's wrong.
All of them? Really now. How many times have you witnessed an ordinary person raising another person from the dead? Compare that with the number of ordinary people throwing some meaningless syllables into their speech and thinking it is the gift of tongues?
 
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Biblicist

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Even though the classic or historical Dichotimist position has the words soul and spirit as being interchangeable, as this is obviously a rather sloppy solution, not all all Dichotomists follow this line, where individuals such as myself view the soul as being a distinct entity whereas any reference to the 'human' spirit is a reference to our sentient facilities which are our thoughts, deliberations, actions, countenance, attitudes, demeanour etc which only the Father can seperate.

It should be pointed out that over the centuries the Church has held to the view that man is a Dichotomy, where the Trichotomist view is a relatively new one; though it is based on the ancient Greek idea that the soul is evil and the spirit of man is essentially good.
 
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Alithis

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Like all False doctrines ...and falsehood of cessationism is no exception.they depend heavily upon external commentaries to take a collection of out of context verses and forcefit them together .because thier desired point cannot be unambiguously shown from scripture.
..................
Unbelief is a most insidious sin.
 
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Biblicist

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This is one of those interesting discussions that moves beyond the Continuist-cessationist debate as it rests primarily, but not solely, within our individual understanding of the nature of man, whether man is a Dichotomy or a Trichotomy.

For the Dichotomist, the question is relatively simple as we see the unregenerate man as being composed of a body and a soul, whereas the Trichotomist sees man as being a body, soul and spirit, where the interaction between the soul and ‘spirit’ can realise various understandings, though for the unregenerate man the ‘human’ spirit is somehow inactive or dead.

For the Christian, the Dichotomist recognises that man is now Tripartite in that we now consist of a body, soul and Holy Spirit, whereas the Tripartite view has man being a quadlateral where he then has two ‘spirits’.

Here’s where Fee’s solution to Paul’s use of pneuma in 1 Cor 14:14-15 solves the question of whether it is the supposed ‘human’ spirit or the Holy Spirit who is the one praying through us to the Father, where in your post #693 you stated “The human spirit's words needed to be interpreted so that the church may be edified: "Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit”, which again begs the question, who is the one praying, is it the ‘human’ spirit or the Holy Spirit as you have both the Holy Spirit and the ‘human’ spirit praying?

As we agree that it is the Holy Spirit who is the agent or originator of tongues, this means that as he is the agent that he must be the one who is praying through us, where the ‘us’ is where the Biblical references to the spirit of man refers to our sentient abilities where we cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he speaks through us to the Father.
 
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Anto9us

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1Th 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Trichotomist view a "RELATIVELY NEW ONE ????!!!????"

Isn't 1st Thessalonians probably the EARLIEST WRITTEN NT book that we have?

If "RELATIVELY NEW" means "50's AD" - I guess the spirit soul body concept is relatively new...
 
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Anto9us

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I am going to move my thoughts on Trichotomist/Dichotomist concepts to another thread on Watchman Nee on another board, a thread that may not have a CHINAMAN'S CHANCE of really taking off, and I will confine efforts in this thread to refuting Cessationist Tripe !
 
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Albion

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The only reason that cessationists are cessationists is because tongues did cease. That's hardly any different from a Christian observing that the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the age with it has not occurred yet.

You can say, if it makes you feel better, that the Second Coming of Christ DID actually occur at some time in the past and insist that it is so purely because of interpreting a passage in the Bible to say it had to be. In fact, that is pretty close to what the Adventists and Jehovahs Witnesses have done.
 
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Alithis

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Nice misdirection..I didn't know raising the dead was the only miracle allowable by the ability (gift)of miracles.
 
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Alithis

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And yet your communicating in a tongue..how strange
 
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High Fidelity

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Some people need to experiential aspect to believe.

Just goes to show how convincing the human mind can be in times of desperation.

Your other post sums it up; people focus on tongues but the other gifts aren't present today either but that's conveniently ignored.
 
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High Fidelity

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Nice misdirection..I didn't know raising the dead was the only miracle allowable by the ability (gift)of miracles.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that it is yet another that doesn't occur today... like tongues.
 
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Albion

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And yet your communicating in a tongue..how strange
It is not an unknown tongue or ecstatic or angelic speech, though, is it? I don't think anyone claimed that English had ceased.
Nice misdirection..I didn't know raising the dead was the only miracle allowable by the ability (gift)of miracles.
No one said that it was, but you claimed to have seen:
all of them
--all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation, that is, not just the ever-popular tongues speaking. How fast you backed down from that one.
 
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Alithis

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That's not what he's saying. He's saying that it is yet another that doesn't occur today... like tongues.
Tut tut..now your opinion is dishonest as well. I knew what he meant.

Because I have not personally seen a person raised from the dead (regardless of knowing a person who returned from the dead) then it doesn't happen .
But by that reasoning nothing I hsvnt personally seen happen can happen .
I didnt see Jesus raised from the dead either..it's all testimony and hearsay. So it didn't happen ?
But
I believe it Did.because I am a believer.
And having believed I repented and obeyed in water baptism and received the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues and still Do.
I testify of this in the name of Jesus .
 
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Anto9us

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"The only reason that cessationists are cessationists is because tongues did cease."

Hog wash.

I say that cessationists are cessationists because they are scared of something, they want the Holy Spirit contained in a nice little box of their own theology, and climb on to the band-wagon of "that which is perfect" being completion of the New Testament because it conveniently allows them to dismiss the reality of tongues for today, which is practiced by MILLIONS of Christians NOW and throughout the last 2000 years.
 
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Albion

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Yes, I think you're right, and the evidence is in how incensed and even abusive they become when anyone dares to point out a simple fact of history, that tongues ceased. It's not as though we wanted them to cease or made them cease, after all.
 
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Biblicist

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The interesting thing about the commentators that you have quoted is that they are all committed hardened cessationists (a dying breed), who admittedly have understood that the 'telion' of 1 Cor 13:10 was the last bastion of the cessationist worldview, which died a death by the mid to late 1970's, which is why they are still trying to flog what is now a 'dead horse'.

In this day and age, any attempt to say that 'the perfect' is anything but the return of the Lord with his future Kingdom is little more than a relic of a bygone era, where the vast majority of even non-Continuist scholars acknowledge that Paul was making reference to the future return of the Lord with his Kingdom.

Even the cessationist grammarian Daniel Wallace has recognised this:

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, Daniel B. Wallace (1996)

1 Cor 13:10 όταν δε ελθη τό τέλειον, τό έκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται whenever the perfect comes, the partial will be done away

Although there can be no objection to the τέλειον referring to the completion of the canon grammatically (for the adj. would naturally be neuter if it referred to a thing, even if the inferred noun were feminine, such as γραοή), it is difficult to see such a notion in this passage, for this view presupposes that (1) both Paul and the Corinthians knew that he was writing scripture, and (2) the apostle foresaw the completion of the NT before the Lord's return.6 A more likely view is that "the perfect" refers to the coming of Christ7 (note the terminus given in v 12 (τότε) as "face to face," a personal reference that does not easily comport with the canon view).8

Cf. also Matt 19:17; 27:29; Mark 1:4; Acts 5:31; Rom 8:34; 12:9, 21; 1 Cor 1:20, 25-28; Gal 4:27; Eph 1:20; 2:14,16; 1 Tim 5:16; Heb 1:3; 1 Pet 4:18; 1 John 2:20; Rev 3:7.

Footnotes:
6 G. D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians (NICNT) 645, n. 23, remarks that this "is an impossible view, of course, since Paul himself could not have articulated it."

7 One cannot object that the reference is not to the coming of Christ because the adj. is neuter, since the neuter adj. is sometimes used for persons for masons of rhetoric, aphoristic principle, suspense, etc. Cf. Matt 12:6,41; 1 Cor 1:27-28; Heb 7:7.

8 This is not necessarily to say that the sign gifts would continue until the Second Coming, for in Paul's mind he would be alive when Christ returned (cf. 1 Thess 4:15). Such an anticipation summarily removes this text from supporting either the charismatic or cessationist position on sign gifts.


Of the 11 individuals in the following chart only two would be fully theologically Continuist, whereas the others range from being 'Open-but-cautious' to being cessationists.


 
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Biblicist

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The advantage of having the ever decreasing number of old die-hard cessationist commentators who are still prepared to try push the old view that 1Cor 13:10 is speaking of either the death of the last Apostle-of-Christ or with the completion of the Canon in the fourth century, is that in the end, for most quasi-cessationists it is self-defeating as even a less than educated reader will realise that these two old views are baseless. So the more that they are promoted we can be assured that more cessationists will come to the realisation that Paul is saying that the Manifestations of the Holy Spirit will only end with the return of the Lord and his Kingdom.

During the massive worldwide Charismatic Renewal of the 60's and 70's, the realisation by many cessationists that Paul was referring to the future Kingdom of God was the last nail in the cessationist-coffin, where the theological coffin of cessationism in this day and age barely has a few inches showing above ground.
 
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Anto9us

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It is interesting that Dan Wallace addresses -- and dismisses -- the notion that THE PERFECT is the completion of the New Testament.

English is not a language that makes much ado about GENDER of words like other languages -- we call SHIPS and NATIONS as "SHE" -- but otherwise our nouns carry no "gender" grammatically.

If I am not mistaken, even the New Testament Koine Greek does not CONSISTENTLY refer to the Holy Spirit Himself as masculine, usually it does, but sometimes Holy Spirit is neuter.

So the whole RED HERRING of pointing to gender of nouns is just that; ruah in Hebrew for Spirit is a feminine word -- I mean, these gender-benders are just another case of Cessationists grabbing at straws to prove "Tongues have ceased" when it's obvious they still go on today -- Christians DO SPEAK IN TONGUES -- it is HAPPENING.
 
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