Source of Christian Validity?

[DrFate]

I edited this and moved it to apologetics.

I would really like to believe in the Christian myth but I do not see any OT justification for the doctrine of Atonement. Any authority for the idea of a Hebrew Messiah comes from the Hebrew scriptures. So

I would really like to know where in the OT:
1) Jehovah says that human sacrifice is acceptable.
2) Jehovah says that one person may atone for the sins of another person.
3) Jehovah says that an individual is not responsible for his own actions.
4) Any place where Jehovah holds humans to the standards of perfectionism.
5) The principles Jehovah established quite clearly in EZK 18 are made invalid.


If this should be in a different forum please inform the mods. I did not know where else to put my questions.

 

[Secundulus]

I would really like to believe in the Christian myth but I do not see any OT justification for the doctrine of Atonement. Any authority for the idea of a Hebrew Messiah comes from the Hebrew scriptures.

The doctrine of atonement is contained in the sacrificial laws of Leviticus. As you have noted, these laws called for the sacrifice of animals, not humans.

This verse specifically calls out a Day of Atonement to be observed annually.

26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
The Holy Bible : King James Version., Le 23:26-27.

1) Jehovah says that human sacrifice is acceptable.

He does not say this. He says the opposite. In The following verse he specifically condemns the practice of human (child) sacrifice that Israel had begun practicing in imitation of some neighboring tribes.

16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
The Holy Bible : King James Version., 2 Ki 17:15-18.

2) Jehovah says that one person may atone for the sins of another person.

He does not say this. However, in the case of Christ, it was not a mere man providing the atonement. Rather it was God himself working through his person of Jesus.

If you are interested, the Book of Hebrews provides a detailed explanation inthe context of the Old Testament.

3) Jehovah says that an individual is not responsible for his own actions.

He does not say this either.

4) Any place where Jehovah holds humans to the standards of perfectionism.

He holds them to the standard of perfection in that they will worship him only. Worship directed towards anything else is unconditionally condemned.

Beyond this he gives them a moral code of conduct and expects them to follow it. However, he recognizes their imperfection and forgives their transgressions if they turn to him in repentence. This is seen in many places in the Old Testament. The story of David is prominent and the Psalms are replete with this theme.

5) The principles Jehovah established quite clearly in EZK 18 are made invalid.

Ezekiel 18:21-22 below demonstrates what I said above. If a wicked man turns from his sins in repentence then God will forgive them and will not remember them at all.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
The Holy Bible : King James Version., Eze 18:21-22.

 

[arunma]

2) Jehovah says that one person may atone for the sins of another person.

Actually the Old Testament quite specifically excepts God as the only person who can redeem one's soul:

Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit...
But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. (Psalm 49:7-9, 15)
​

It would appear then that Jesus, who is equal with God (see St. John 5:18, Romans 9:5, and Titus 2:13) is able to redeem anyone whom he choses from hell. This is one important reason that the Bible teaches the doctrine of Jesus' divinity.

 

[DrFate]

The doctrine of atonement is contained in the sacrificial laws of Leviticus. As you have noted, these laws called for the sacrifice of animals, not humans.

This verse specifically calls out a Day of Atonement to be observed annually.

26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
The Holy Bible : King James Version., Le 23:26-27.





He does not say this. He says the opposite. In The following verse he specifically condemns the practice of human (child) sacrifice that Israel had begun practicing in imitation of some neighboring tribes.

16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
The Holy Bible : King James Version., 2 Ki 17:15-18.





He does not say this. However, in the case of Christ, it was not a mere man providing the atonement. Rather it was God himself working through his person of Jesus.

If you are interested, the Book of Hebrews provides a detailed explanation inthe context of the Old Testament.



He does not say this either.



He holds them to the standard of perfection in that they will worship him only. Worship directed towards anything else is unconditionally condemned.

Beyond this he gives them a moral code of conduct and expects them to follow it. However, he recognizes their imperfection and forgives their transgressions if they turn to him in repentence. This is seen in many places in the Old Testament. The story of David is prominent and the Psalms are replete with this theme.




Ezekiel 18:21-22 below demonstrates what I said above. If a wicked man turns from his sins in repentence then God will forgive them and will not remember them at all.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
The Holy Bible : King James Version., Eze 18:21-22.

Thank you for your response. I will have to rewrite the questions and move them to Apologetics.
DeeF

 

[DrFate]

Actually the Old Testament quite specifically excepts God as the only person who can redeem one's soul:

Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit...
But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. (Psalm 49:7-9, 15)
​

It would appear then that Jesus, who is equal with God (see St. John 5:18, Romans 9:5, and Titus 2:13) is able to redeem anyone whom he choses from hell. This is one important reason that the Bible teaches the doctrine of Jesus' divinity.

I am looking for OT sources not NT sources.

 

[arunma]

I am looking for OT sources not NT sources.

I believe that's precisely what I provided, in spite of your error of seeking "proof-texts."

 

[Catherineanne]

I edited this and moved it to apologetics.

I would really like to believe in the Christian myth but I do not see any OT justification for the doctrine of Atonement. Any authority for the idea of a Hebrew Messiah comes from the Hebrew scriptures. So

I would really like to know where in the OT:
1) Jehovah says that human sacrifice is acceptable.
2) Jehovah says that one person may atone for the sins of another person.
3) Jehovah says that an individual is not responsible for his own actions.
4) Any place where Jehovah holds humans to the standards of perfectionism.
5) The principles Jehovah established quite clearly in EZK 18 are made invalid.


If this should be in a different forum please inform the mods. I did not know where else to put my questions.

To understand this issue you need to read the OT carefully, and see what has been largely edited out. This is infanticide.

If you read and compare Kings and Chronicles, you will see that one king after another is condemned as commiting abomination in the sight of the Lord, and then is followed by another king who is righteous. Sometimes the abomination is not specified. Sometimes it is. Where it is, the abomination has survived editing, and it is ritual child sacrifice to Molech/El.

The abomination was the sacrifice of firstborn children, especially sons, to placate God. The children were burnt in fire, as an offering, and one Isrealite prophet after another condemns this practice, and says that God does not want it. The story of Abraham offering Isaac is written in direct conflict with the practice of infanticide, and is written to show people that they do not have to do this, and more importantly, that God does not want it.

Eventually the message is understood, and an offering of a lamb without blemish or a pair of doves is substituted instead.

You have a look again, and see what is there. Once you know what you are looking for, it is quite shocking stuff.

Then the rest of your questions will fall into place.

 

[Catherineanne]

He does not say this. He says the opposite. In The following verse he specifically condemns the practice of human (child) sacrifice that Israel had begun practicing in imitation of some neighboring tribes.

16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire,

Israel certainly practiced child sacrifice, but they were not copying anyone. That is a bit of historical revision by the writer. It was a practice endemic to their culture, which is why it took so long for their prophets to eradicate it. The evidence for it being a particularly strong element in their culture is the activity at the Temple, which continued long after the infanticide fell out of practice, but which was substitutionary for it.

Israel is no worse than any other culture in this. Every single ancient culture on the face of the earth practiced infanticide in one form or another. Israel's is particularly nasty, but it is by no means unusual.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

It would appear then that Jesus, who is equal with God is able to redeem anyone whom he choses from hell.

I don't think I like this change of faith icon next to your name.