sound catholicism?

[Jeronimomoulia]

I´m christian catholic; therefore I believe in communion of saints, and that heaven is a palace were the King is sitted together his knights, it´s to say, the saints, according to Hebrews 12. So I revere Christ in its member, sometimes. But my worship is mainly to God throught Christ, throught his Word contained in Bible, without any intercession.

Some catholics are surprised at my lack of devotions; in my life I am like protestant; I dont use images, rosaries, or any devotional practice. In fact, I think devotions are against warning of Paul in 2 Colossians, usually devotions breeds hypocrital humbleness. I reject Fatima or any apparition bringing new revelations; by example the need to pray rosary. Guadalupe moves me.

I accept that the Church must keep the balance between heathen tendencies of people and sound communion of saints, so I am not shoked by processions, even sometimes I am moved by devotion of modest people, because I see in the image of Virgin Mary, a image of a member of Christ. I accept that my point of view can be out of focus, so i dont think on it that often.

Why other catholics reject my lack of devotions? because they think it is a protestant character; so, if there was no protestantism, now this rejection would not be motived, and catholicism would be balanced between people who use devotions, and who not. Action reaction is not only a physical law, it is also a hystorical law.

So I think a sound catholicism must focus of former revelation, when herexies had not caused in right doctrine carcinogenic growths. I think it was the purpose of II Council Vatican, but the strength of devotional tendence is still very, very violent on serious catholics.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I´m christian catholic; therefore I believe in communion of saints, and that heaven is a palace were the King is sitted together his knights, it´s to say, the saints, according to Hebrews 12. So I revere Christ in its member, sometimes. But my worship is mainly to God throught Christ, throught his Word contained in Bible, without any intercession.

Some catholics are surprised at my lack of devotions; in my life I am like protestant; I dont use images, rosaries, or any devotional practice. In fact, I think devotions are against warning of Paul in 2 Colossians, usually devotions breeds hypocrital humbleness. I reject Fatima or any apparition bringing new revelations; by example the need to pray rosary. Guadalupe moves me.

I accept that the Church must keep the balance between heathen tendencies of people and sound communion of saints, so I am not shoked by processions, even sometimes I am moved by devotion of modest people, because I see in the image of Virgin Mary, a image of a member of Christ. I accept that my point of view can be out of focus, so i dont think on it that often.

Why other catholics reject my lack of devotions? because they think it is a protestant character; so, if there was no protestantism, now this rejection would not be motived, and catholicism would be balanced between people who use devotions, and who not. Action reaction is not only a physical law, it is also a hystorical law.

So I think a sound catholicism must focus of former revelation, when herexies had not caused in right doctrine carcinogenic growths. I think it was the purpose of II Council Vatican, but the strength of devotional tendence is still very, very violent on serious catholics.

I wouldn't be the right person necessarily to get much advice from, as I'm a Protestant, but my general recommendation would be to talk to your priest and wrestle with your faith from within your theological tradition (Catholicism).

Becoming more educated about one's own tradition or denomination is always a good thing. You'll get far more helpful answers from within your church, more likely, than outside of it. Those of us outside of the Roman Catholic tradition will more than likely be unhelpful, if only because it's not the way we live out our Christian faith and won't have the kind of grasp and understanding of Catholicism that those educated within the Roman Catholic Church have on their own faith.

That said, it's my understanding that devotions of the Saints isn't required in individual Catholic devotional practice, though it may be that there are some Catholics who would regard not having such as part of one's devotional activity as "Protestant" (much, as it often happens, that a number of Protestants regard certain devotional practices as "Catholic" such as praying the Rosaryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosaries#Usage_in_Lutheranism or making the Sign of the Cross).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DreamOutLoud]

I´m christian catholic; therefore I believe in communion of saints, and that heaven is a palace were the King is sitted together his knights, it´s to say, the saints, according to Hebrews 12. So I revere Christ in its member, sometimes. But my worship is mainly to God throught Christ, throught his Word contained in Bible, without any intercession.

Some catholics are surprised at my lack of devotions; in my life I am like protestant; I dont use images, rosaries, or any devotional practice. In fact, I think devotions are against warning of Paul in 2 Colossians, usually devotions breeds hypocrital humbleness. I reject Fatima or any apparition bringing new revelations; by example the need to pray rosary. Guadalupe moves me.

I accept that the Church must keep the balance between heathen tendencies of people and sound communion of saints, so I am not shoked by processions, even sometimes I am moved by devotion of modest people, because I see in the image of Virgin Mary, a image of a member of Christ. I accept that my point of view can be out of focus, so i dont think on it that often.

Why other catholics reject my lack of devotions? because they think it is a protestant character; so, if there was no protestantism, now this rejection would not be motived, and catholicism would be balanced between people who use devotions, and who not. Action reaction is not only a physical law, it is also a hystorical law.

So I think a sound catholicism must focus of former revelation, when herexies had not caused in right doctrine carcinogenic growths. I think it was the purpose of II Council Vatican, but the strength of devotional tendence is still very, very violent on serious catholics.

You're not the only one.

Well... In theory any Catholic isn't forced to cult of saints etc., it isn't in Credo. When I realised it I felt relieved: "Oh, I don't have to become a member of Protestant Church which I disagree with some issues, I can be a Catholic. A specific one, but still". But I'm not not that optimistic anymore.

Firstly, the Church has a list of compulsory holidays, some of them are connected with Mary and saints I don't really want to attend to. But what? They're obligatory and the Church claims I'll sin if I don't go.

Secondly, I have problems with shrift. If a priest says me that my atonement is a rosary prayer, will I have to tell him I'm not use it? In Poland where I live there are many priests who are really Mary-concerned and I'm sure they won't understand me.

I don't get paranoid when I see images and sculptures in church. I treat them as decorations (oh, maybe I've been irritated a few times when I saw a hudge painting or a sculpture with Mary instead of a cross above an altar). But I just can't stand selling "holy drawings" near churches along with toys etc. - a common situation next to Polish sanctuaries - which some people treat as objects of faith.
And this paying for prayers, masses etc. - I can't stand it.

Many Catholics think I'm a freak.
Well, it seems to me I'd be able to survive it somehow if they gave me a chance. I don't want to be forced to anything that isn't in doctrine.

I'm curious: did you have some major problems caused by your beliefs in a Catholic community?

 

[Jeronimomoulia]

I´m pleased to meet you. We have in common one thing: we two are from very very catholic countries (I´m spanish). Yes, I have some problems, but I think that these are ordinary problems of life in community; I just think different, but keeping myself in the spacious church: I dont try narrow churches, according to my emotions.

About your problems with obedience, take advice that obedience is subject to our conservation, it´s to say, our spiritual or corporal health. If a commandement of the church, by example a holiday or a fast, is detrimental to your spiritual peace, of make you doubtful in faith, then sense of obedience changes.

By example, the priest of my town denies hell, so I dont go to mass in holidais, because if I hear his sermons, I will be angry, with risk to my spiritual health: so I go in the week, when there are no sermons.

The womanwith loss of blood touched the robe of Christ; this was a superstition act, because she thought Christ didnt realise; she expected the robe had powers. But Christ turn around, and said: who touched me?: she was frightened, but Christ said: your faith saved you. I think this is a profetical sentence: saints are members of Christ, they are his robe, so in spite of any superstition, Christ always listen to devotional prayers.

I think clean prayer to God is better that any rosary, but if we cut the darnel, wheat will be lost with the darnel.

Blessings from Spain.

 

[DreamOutLoud]

About your problems with obedience, take advice that obedience is subject to our conservation, it´s to say, our spiritual or corporal health. If a commandement of the church, by example a holiday or a fast, is detrimental to your spiritual peace, of make you doubtful in faith, then sense of obedience changes.

Wow, wise words! I've never thought about it in this way.

 

[Dark_Lite]

You're not the only one.

Well... In theory any Catholic isn't forced to cult of saints etc., it isn't in Credo. When I realised it I felt relieved: "Oh, I don't have to become a member of Protestant Church which I disagree with some issues, I can be a Catholic. A specific one, but still". But I'm not not that optimistic anymore.

You don't have to perform Saintly devotions, must you must believe in the Communion of Saints and that asking the Saints for intercession is possible and etc etc etc.

 

[Erose]

You have to be careful how you say things. We are all called to obedience and obedience is a virtue. We must always strive to learn what the church teaches and more importantly why it teaches what it teaches.

For example, concerning the communion of saints, particulary why devotions to saints are incouraged, is because Christ knows that we need examples on how to follow him and that it is possible to follow him. Communion of saints does not mean that we worship the saints. We only worship God anything else than this is idolatry. No we are called to honor the saints and follow their examples. Can you pray to them? Yes. Why pray to them? Because they are saints and they are much closer to God at this time than I am. Also they know better than us what to ask God for us since they have already taken the journey. Praying to saints is the same as asking someone in your congregation, who you think is a holy person, to pray for you. No difference in all reality.

Do you have to pray to the saints? No you do not. Do you have to pray to Mary? No you do not. You can make it to heaven without the rosary. But you also need to understand the function of the rosary which it sounds like you truly do not. The rosary when done properly is a mediative prayer on the life of Jesus and His mother. It calls us to contemplate the mysteries of the Incarnation, which are very beneficial to our salvation. But you can contemplate these mysteries without the rosary if you wish, but that is up to you.

Concerning the images in the churches. The Catholic church has a long history of using images in the churches, either with statues, stain glass windows, etc. These in the past were used by the devout to learn the gospel. Especially during the time when most people did not have the ability to read. So without the ability to read the bible they had these images to teach them the gospel of Christ outside of mass and the hours.

Praying before an image feeds our senses while we are praying. It helps us to focus and minimize detractions. This is much like us looking at a picture of a loved one we haven't seen in a long time while we are talking to them on the phone.

As I said before we are called to obedience by Christ to His teachings. We are called by Christ to mold ourselves into His image and not try to mold our image of Him into our image. Like I said before, having a devotion to Mary or one of the other saints is not a requirement, but I think it is important that you do not have a devotion to the saints because of some reason that is counter to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

God bless.

 

[Jeronimomoulia]

The apostle Paul said that Levi was in the bosom of Abraham, when he gave Melquisedec the tithe; in that mysterious way died jews were to the bosom of Abraham. The desdendants of Abraham was Christ: all saved, before of after Christ, are the hystorical Christ, the church from Adan to the last blessed, and this Church was in the bossom of Mary, before and after her: she is the new Eve.

The prayer of Mary for his son during his life was prayer for all christians: in that sense Mary is universal intercessor of all graces. The relationship of the Church with Mary is the relationship of Christ with her mother expanded: Christ asked for Mary for his sustenance, from his weeping to the intercession of the marriage of Canaa, and when we pray to Mary, we develop that prayer in the expanded Church. I think this is the sense of hiperdulia. (the loved disciple became the son of Mary by the word of God, through Christ, and Joan assumed her in his house)

About dulia, I think that when we pray to a saint, this prayer goes up to the city in heaven, not as a straight communication to any saint, but a inciense smoke to the body of Christ, it´s to say, to Christ.

In fact paganism was assumed by the Church, but in everything that could be assumed by the Christ; Diana of Ephessy will be converted to Mary of Ephessy (see acts 19), the tiara of the high priest of heathens is handed down to the bishop.

Literal interpretation of the second commandement of the Law, leeds rejection of Trinity, because God says: "I´m one", but God is three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Church is well balanced for all seasons, and for all minds. Herexies unbalance the right doctrine.