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Soulless Christianity

cloudyday2

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Imagine that humans are simply a collection of natural materials with no soul or freewill. It seems to me that Christianity can still be made to work.

(1) We need to assume soul sleep. When our bodies die, we no longer exist until our bodies are recreated along with a new Earth at Christ's return.

(2) Without free will, heaven and hell can be viewed as a way to improve human behavior or as inevitable outcomes of different paths in life.

(3) God can continue to be above the material world. Maybe God is the programmer who wrote a computer simulation of reality or whatever. From our perspective God the progammer is very Godlike.

I don't see any big problems with removing the human soul from the theology, and it brings Christianity into closer harmony with science. Any opinions?
 

juvenissun

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Imagine that humans are simply a collection of natural materials with no soul or freewill. It seems to me that Christianity can still be made to work.

(1) We need to assume soul sleep. When our bodies die, we no longer exist until our bodies are recreated along with a new Earth at Christ's return.

(2) Without free will, heaven and hell can be viewed as a way to improve human behavior or as inevitable outcomes of different paths in life.

(3) God can continue to be above the material world. Maybe God is the programmer who wrote a computer simulation of reality or whatever. From our perspective God the progammer is very Godlike.

I don't see any big problems with removing the human soul from the theology, and it brings Christianity into closer harmony with science. Any opinions?

If so, how do you explain that no two humans are the same?
 
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I don't see any big problems with removing the human soul from the theology, and it brings Christianity into closer harmony with science. Any opinions?

Why do you want to remove the soul from theology, and how would that bring Christianity into closer harmony with science?
 
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juvenissun

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No two snow flakes are the same.

Good reply.
Somehow, there is a big difference between the two. But I could not get to it easily yet.
You raised two issues, the soul and the free will. The arguments are quite different.

Just take the issue of soul. There are functions of soul. If you take the soul out, then the functions are disabled. So, what are the functions of soul? I guess you need to provide (define) that in your OP. If you think soul serves no function, then the question became meaningless.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Why if humans have no soul would they necessarily have no free will? I don't think you need to remove free will from your argument.
If you assume God above the world, then He is outside time. Therefore He would see all time at the same eternal instant and thus see all human actions as they are occuring. No need to create automata.

Second, why have hell? If no souls, why recreate something to punish it etc. Such an argument would only work with universalism.

Third, as you said, you should hold to soul sleep.

So, what you are describing could work for a very limited bit of the theology, but it wouldn't work for Christianity as the theology speaks of becoming reborn, to become New Men. There must be something upon which is acted, for which the world acts as a crucible of sorts to bring it to fruition.
Automata or soulless individuals would not be able to undergo the fundamental change to be sons of God, as a computer program cannot be in a living relationship with its creator.
Furthermore, Christianity teaches that you are a soul, which happens to inhabit a body.

As to science, the idea of the soul is an unscientific principle, it cannot be proven but also it is not falsifiable. Therefore Science cannot comment on it, by the very definition of scientific method. For a soul as most now understand it, is like a ghost in the machine, non-material. It mimics the creature to which it was bound, as most assume we will retain memory and personality etc. which likely have physical components, but is substantially different in its permanence. Therefore its substance, if it consists of substance, must be coterminous with our matter, which precludes testing it in a material sphere as it substantially is different.
So therefore, it cannot be tested for, is therefore unfalsifiable and thus scientific method cannot be applied to it.
So to say by removing the soul we are bringing Christianity more in line with science is silly, for science cannot comment on whether there is a soul or not. Science functions without the concept, but it cannot disprove or support its existence at all. If someone says there is no soul, they are stating a unscientific belief therefore. A scientist would merely say there is no conclusive evidence for or against it. (Unless you define soul in a different manner, as in assume it consists of matter etc. but then you should have defined your concept of 'soul' to begin with.
 
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cloudyday2

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Good reply.
Somehow, there is a big difference between the two. But I could not get to it easily yet.
You raised two issues, the soul and the free will. The arguments are quite different.

Just take the issue of soul. There are functions of soul. If you take the soul out, then the functions are disabled. So, what are the functions of soul? I guess you need to provide (define) that in your OP. If you think soul serves no function, then the question became meaningless.
I suppose one function of the soul is to allow the person to continue after death without a body. Some (or most) Christians imagine that the souls of the dead go immediately to an afterlife. Christians who believe in "soul sleep" imagine that the dead are gone until the collective resurrection of all people at Christ's return. So "soul sleep" makes souls unnecessary. With the soul eliminated, Christianity is much more in harmony with science.
 
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cloudyday2

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Why do you want to remove the soul from theology, and how would that bring Christianity into closer harmony with science?
Metaphysical naturalism is tacitly assumed by science. It is called methodological naturalism when it is merely a practical position as opposed to a philosophical position. Neither form of naturalism allows for the existence of souls. Many scientists believe in souls, but they ignore that belief while practicing science.
Methodological naturalism is concerned not with claims about what exists but with methods of learning what nature is. It is the idea that all scientific endeavors, hypotheses, and events are to be explained and tested by reference to natural causes and events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Methodological_naturalism
 
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cloudyday2

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Why if humans have no soul would they necessarily have no free will? I don't think you need to remove free will from your argument.
If you assume God above the world, then He is outside time. Therefore He would see all time at the same eternal instant and thus see all human actions as they are occuring. No need to create automata.

Second, why have hell? If no souls, why recreate something to punish it etc. Such an argument would only work with universalism.

Third, as you said, you should hold to soul sleep.

So, what you are describing could work for a very limited bit of the theology, but it wouldn't work for Christianity as the theology speaks of becoming reborn, to become New Men. There must be something upon which is acted, for which the world acts as a crucible of sorts to bring it to fruition.
Automata or soulless individuals would not be able to undergo the fundamental change to be sons of God, as a computer program cannot be in a living relationship with its creator.
Furthermore, Christianity teaches that you are a soul, which happens to inhabit a body.
Free will seems to imply responsibility for choices. We can punish soulless humans to influence future behavior. We can also threaten punishment to influence future behavior. Burning in hell for past behavior makes no sense unless that person can be used as an example to change the future behavior of others who still live. Of course that doesn't work with soul sleep, because hell only happens after Christ's return. We might also say that pain and pleasure are equivalent. What is wrong with God burning somebody in hell for eternity if God knows that person is simply a soulless robot, and God knows that pain and pleasure are simply different neural states? There are lots of different perspectives possible.

I don't agree that soulless humans are incapable of refinement. Gold can be refined without having a soul.

Of course, resurrection of the human is as simple as recreating the material state of the body before death (including enough memories to be considered "equivalent" to the original person).
 
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(2) Without free will, heaven and hell can be viewed as a way to improve human behavior or as inevitable outcomes of different paths in life.

The idea of heaven or hell does not improve human or social behavior.

Christians often ask why atheists don't go around raping or murdering since, after all, there is no sense of moral responsibility in the atheistic worldview: we are all just lifeless atoms with no purpose or meaning.

But we can flip this around on the theist:

Why don't Christians go around raping or murdering since, after all, there is no sense of moral responsibility in the Christian worldview: we are all forgiven of every sin.

While the idea of heaven or hell does not improve human or social behavior, living by the words of Jesus would probably actually accomplish this improvement. The problem is simply that Christians do not make any attempt to live by Jesus' words. And no, slapping a bumper sticker on your car doesn't count as bearing your cross.
 
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juvenissun

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I suppose one function of the soul is to allow the person to continue after death without a body. Some (or most) Christians imagine that the souls of the dead go immediately to an afterlife. Christians who believe in "soul sleep" imagine that the dead are gone until the collective resurrection of all people at Christ's return. So "soul sleep" makes souls unnecessary. With the soul eliminated, Christianity is much more in harmony with science.

In that regard, your argument makes some sense.
However, that understanding of soul neglected the functions of soul when the person is still alive. This issue involves the need of soul in a human life. Put it in a simple way, the idea of soul is raised to explain behaviors of human which can not be explained by science. An example is love. If necessary, you may also include the free will as a function of soul.
 
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Chesterton

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Metaphysical naturalism is tacitly assumed by science. It is called methodological naturalism when it is merely a practical position as opposed to a philosophical position. Neither form of naturalism allows for the existence of souls. Many scientists believe in souls, but they ignore that belief while practicing science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Methodological_naturalism
I don't think you answered my first question, but as to the second one - many barbers believe in souls, but they ignore that belief while cutting hair. How's that different from science, and what does that have to do with Christianity?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Free will seems to imply responsibility for choices. We can punish soulless humans to influence future behavior. We can also threaten punishment to influence future behavior. Burning in hell for past behavior makes no sense unless that person can be used as an example to change the future behavior of others who still live. Of course that doesn't work with soul sleep, because hell only happens after Christ's return. We might also say that pain and pleasure are equivalent. What is wrong with God burning somebody in hell for eternity if God knows that person is simply a soulless robot, and God knows that pain and pleasure are simply different neural states? There are lots of different perspectives possible.

I don't agree that soulless humans are incapable of refinement. Gold can be refined without having a soul.

Of course, resurrection of the human is as simple as recreating the material state of the body before death (including enough memories to be considered "equivalent" to the original person).
They are incapable of refinement if they are mere atoms, for 'refinement' is not about a material change. Gold cannot be refined further than pure gold, it is isolated from other forms of matter. In your analogy of gold, I would have to say it is like transmutation in an Alchemical sense then. This is not allowed of simple matter, for the change is profound to bring depraved humanity inline with God.

As to the moral relativism of hell vs heaven and both being equal. This makes little sense even in your analogy, as they aren't if soulless robots suffer. For pain and pleasure have different pathways in physicality (Nociceptive vs Endorphin, Encephalin etc.) They would also not be neutral states either, as during both the natural homeostasis is disrupted. These statements are non-sequitors from your previous position, so if you want to make them, then you need to justify them as well.

The point of Christian Resurrection is that the bodies would be perfected and glorified. A good example would be The Great Divorce of CS Lewis. The beings that would arise are substantially different than the previous ones, so a physical recreation of the human before death does not fit the Christian criteria and nor would any physical creation as the flaws in standard bio-psycho-social framework of the human body would not countenance glorification in the manner promised by Christianity, matter simply would not allow it.

Also as I said, Christianity says we are a soul. So no soul, no Christianity, the body is a secondary concept and arguably the Cartesian dualism on display is inimical to original hebrew conceptions which failed to see a substantial separation between the two (as in If your hand offends, cut it off. The hand and the offense were equated, not the brain as originator of the concept). This does not allow your concept and would require the jettisoning of the old Testament, a problem not incurred if we consider a soul to exist.

Metaphysical naturalism is tacitly assumed by science. It is called methodological naturalism when it is merely a practical position as opposed to a philosophical position. Neither form of naturalism allows for the existence of souls. Many scientists believe in souls, but they ignore that belief while practicing science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Methodological_naturalism

I don't think you answered my first question, but as to the second one - many barbers believe in souls, but they ignore that belief while cutting hair. How's that different from science, and what does that have to do with Christianity?
You ignored why I say that removing souls from the equation does not bring Christianity in any way more in line with Science, then turn around my argument to try and show it does in another post. This is somewhat disingenuous as with Christianity we are talking of Metaphysics and you would equate that to the Practice of science instead of the Metaphysics thereof. Therefore if the goal is to try and synthesise some agreement between the two with this hypothesis, it fails by definition. Souls cannot be placed in scientific propositions, so cannot be scientifically evaluated and have therefore no place in practice, but metaphysically science cannot say anything for or against it. You cannot create a false dichotomy between practice and the theory of science in order to apply practical methodologies against metaphysics.
 
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cloudyday2

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I don't think you answered my first question, but as to the second one - many barbers believe in souls, but they ignore that belief while cutting hair. How's that different from science, and what does that have to do with Christianity?
Psychology, neurology, etc. should consider the soul as an important variable in human behavior, but mostly these fields treat humans as biological automata - helpless products of childhood memories, neurotransmitters, etc. Psychologists are aware of the importance of religious faith to some patients, and certain religious practices such a meditation are promoted, but mostly psychologists believe in medicating people to solve their problems. There is an assumption that any human soul that might exist is not very important.

On the first part of your question ("why do I want to eliminate souls?"), the answer is because there is little evidence that souls exist. In fact the whole idea that humans have souls and coffee mugs do not have souls is somewhat silly from a scientific perspective. A universal soul running through all matter doesn't seem quite as silly. I hope that answers your question.
 
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cloudyday2

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They are incapable of refinement if they are mere atoms, for 'refinement' is not about a material change. Gold cannot be refined further than pure gold, it is isolated from other forms of matter. In your analogy of gold, I would have to say it is like transmutation in an Alchemical sense then. This is not allowed of simple matter, for the change is profound to bring depraved humanity inline with God.
Why can't refinement mean simply removing impurities?

As to the moral relativism of hell vs heaven and both being equal. This makes little sense even in your analogy, as they aren't if soulless robots suffer. For pain and pleasure have different pathways in physicality (Nociceptive vs Endorphin, Encephalin etc.) They would also not be neutral states either, as during both the natural homeostasis is disrupted. These statements are non-sequitors from your previous position, so if you want to make them, then you need to justify them as well.
What does suffering mean? If I write a computer program so that I can ask it "how do you feel?", and the program responds by saying "I'm suffering real bad", am I truly tormenting that computer program? A human suffers because we invented a word called "suffering" that happens to include states similar to what this human is currently experiencing. Hopefully that makes sense now?

The rest of your questions seem to result from a misunderstanding of my ideas. I am sorry that I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts, because they shouldn't be particularly controversial. I stated a few obvious ideas in hopes that others would expand on those ideas. Unfortunately, my words are obviously not making sense, and we are getting hung-up trying to understand what I might have meant.
 
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cloudyday2

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The idea of heaven or hell does not improve human or social behavior.

Christians often ask why atheists don't go around raping or murdering since, after all, there is no sense of moral responsibility in the atheistic worldview: we are all just lifeless atoms with no purpose or meaning.

But we can flip this around on the theist:

Why don't Christians go around raping or murdering since, after all, there is no sense of moral responsibility in the Christian worldview: we are all forgiven of every sin.

While the idea of heaven or hell does not improve human or social behavior, living by the words of Jesus would probably actually accomplish this improvement. The problem is simply that Christians do not make any attempt to live by Jesus' words. And no, slapping a bumper sticker on your car doesn't count as bearing your cross.
The only reason heaven and hell would not affect human behavior is that the human doesn't believe in heaven and hell. Most of us pay our taxes because we are afraid of the consequences of not paying our taxes. Everything humans do is driven by expected rewards and expected punishments. We eat chocolate, because we expect to be rewarded with a yummy taste in our mouths. I agree with your observations about the apparent irrelevance of heaven and hell in human behavior, but this only indicates that humans do not take heaven and hell very seriously (regardless of what they might claim).
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Why can't refinement mean simply removing impurities?


What does suffering mean? If I write a computer program so that I can ask it "how do you feel?", and the program responds by saying "I'm suffering real bad", am I truly tormenting that computer program? A human suffers because we invented a word called "suffering" that happens to include states similar to what this human is currently experiencing. Hopefully that makes sense now?

The rest of your questions seem to result from a misunderstanding of my ideas. I am sorry that I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts, because they shouldn't be particularly controversial. I stated a few obvious ideas in hopes that others would expand on those ideas. Unfortunately, my words are obviously not making sense, and we are getting hung-up trying to understand what I might have meant.

I originally spoke of refinement, and I did not mean it in that manner as I tried to explain. For removing impurities is not what Christianity does. It fundamentally recreates a person until little is left of what came before, although the process is gradual and partial in our earthly lives. To think there is something 'pure' to be refined out of the dreck is an assumption which much of Christianity and Calvinism in particular, would disagree with.

I still don't understand your point on suffering though, for you said they were neutral states, which I showed you they were not. On your computer analogy, suffering would be error messages, I assume. It is not about ascribing the word suffering to something, but finding an analogous position that encompasses the idea. A computer program programmed to respond by saying it is suffering is not suffering, but as suffering occurs when our systems breakdown, the same should holds true in your analogy.
As such, as I said, suffering is not a neutral state or equivalent to pleasure, unless you define it that way initially and hence the word becomes almost meaningless.

As to the last point, you ascribe the practical methodology of science against the metaphysics(not really the same, but for ease lets call it the 'theory') of Christianity. You must measure like to like and if we use the Metaphysical basis of Science, then souls aren't inimical to it. I hope you now understand, but your original assertion of soulless christianity being more inline with science is flawed. I don't think you explained it poorly, it just doesn't hold up philosophically.
 
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Psychology, neurology, etc. should consider the soul as an important variable in human behavior, but mostly these fields treat humans as biological automata - helpless products of childhood memories, neurotransmitters, etc. Psychologists are aware of the importance of religious faith to some patients, and certain religious practices such a meditation are promoted, but mostly psychologists believe in medicating people to solve their problems. There is an assumption that any human soul that might exist is not very important.

On the first part of your question ("why do I want to eliminate souls?"), the answer is because there is little evidence that souls exist. In fact the whole idea that humans have souls and coffee mugs do not have souls is somewhat silly from a scientific perspective. A universal soul running through all matter doesn't seem quite as silly. I hope that answers your question.
You are wrong. Psychologists mostly work through therapy. Psychiatrists medicate and even then they go out of their way to exclude enviromental or societal bias.
As such, if a person undergoes delusions or hallucinations that fit cultural or religious criteria, that tends to be excluded as Psychiatric symptoms. (Besides for most psychiatric symptoms, no neurotransmitter or physical component has been found. Even the link between depression and neurotransmitters is suspect, but we tend to keep that inside the medical fraternity)
For instance, I used to work at a Psychiatric hospital where they brought in a Xhosa woman with hallucinations. In the end, after consulting with Sangomas(Xhosa traditional healers), she was discharged to undergo training to become one. The idea of it being physical was left as a diagnosis of exclusion after Religious considerations were first adressed. Only when Religious factors are outside of the norm of the society are they medicalised (I understand if you are unfamiliar with this aspect as you likely have little contact with non-western societies in which these factors tend to be more pronounced).
Another example would be that a Pentecostal that fell on the ground and spoke in tongues would not be considered a psychiatric case, but if you fell down and spoke gibberish, they would stick a syringe of antipsychotics into you in a heartbeat.

There is the Bio-Psycho-Social model of Medicine that brings all enviromental and developmental effects to bear on the Physiology, but this is again treating the creature. The question of the soul does not arise as it is outside the scope of medicine, but doctors send patients to ministers etc. and the same occurs within Psychology and Psychiatry. They don't treat it, so refer those questions on to those that work in that framework. The soul is not ignored, but is not defined in the scope of medicine itself. Religious factors are taken into account and therefore arguably the soul in symptomology as I tried to illustrate above.
No neurologist looks for the soul, not because they don't think it exists, but because it is unscientific to do so (See my above posts for reasoning).
Most Psychiatric institutions have whole corps of chaplains and are frequently affiliated to churches or religious groups.

As to a world soul being more plausible, on what grounds? I would think both are equally plausible and unfalsifiable from a scientific perspective. Not silly from science's viewpoints but untestable and therefore excluded by its methodology. Your wording is very unscientific here.

From a religious perspective, a coffee mug is not a moral agent or entity and therefore less likely to have a soul.
 
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I still don't understand your point on suffering though, for you said they were neutral states, which I showed you they were not. On your computer analogy, suffering would be error messages, I assume. It is not about ascribing the word suffering to something, but finding an analogous position that encompasses the idea. A computer program programmed to respond by saying it is suffering is not suffering, but as suffering occurs when our systems breakdown, the same should holds true in your analogy.
As such, as I said, suffering is not a neutral state or equivalent to pleasure, unless you define it that way initially and hence the word becomes almost meaningless.
Aha, there is the confusion. I said "neural" - not "neutral" (or at least that is what I meant to say unless I typed wrong). Probably a better word would have been "neurological"? So I assume that we are in agreement on that issue now right?
 
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cloudyday2

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You are wrong. Psychologists mostly work through therapy. Psychiatrists medicate and even then they go out of their way to exclude enviromental or societal bias.
As such, if a person undergoes delusions or hallucinations that fit cultural or religious criteria, that tends to be excluded as Psychiatric symptoms. (Besides for most psychiatric symptoms, no neurotransmitter or physical component has been found. Even the link between depression and neurotransmitters is suspect, but we tend to keep that inside the medical fraternity)
For instance, I used to work at a Psychiatric hospital where they brought in a Xhosa woman with hallucinations. In the end, after consulting with Sangomas(Xhosa traditional healers), she was discharged to undergo training to become one. The idea of it being physical was left as a diagnosis of exclusion after Religious considerations were first adressed. Only when Religious factors are outside of the norm of the society are they medicalised (I understand if you are unfamiliar with this aspect as you likely have little contact with non-western societies in which these factors tend to be more pronounced).
Another example would be that a Pentecostal that fell on the ground and spoke in tongues would not be considered a psychiatric case, but if you fell down and spoke gibberish, they would stick a syringe of antipsychotics into you in a heartbeat.

There is the Bio-Psycho-Social model of Medicine that brings all enviromental and developmental effects to bear on the Physiology, but this is again treating the creature. The question of the soul does not arise as it is outside the scope of medicine, but doctors send patients to ministers etc. and the same occurs within Psychology and Psychiatry. They don't treat it, so refer those questions on to those that work in that framework. The soul is not ignored, but is not defined in the scope of medicine itself. Religious factors are taken into account and therefore arguably the soul in symptomology as I tried to illustrate above.
No neurologist looks for the soul, not because they don't think it exists, but because it is unscientific to do so (See my above posts for reasoning).
Most Psychiatric institutions have whole corps of chaplains and are frequently affiliated to churches or religious groups.

As to a world soul being more plausible, on what grounds? I would think both are equally plausible and unfalsifiable from a scientific perspective. Not silly from science's viewpoints but untestable and therefore excluded by its methodology. Your wording is very unscientific here.

From a religious perspective, a coffee mug is not a moral agent or entity and therefore less likely to have a soul.
As a person with psychological problems, I also know something about the attitudes of psychologists and psychiatrists. I am anti-medication, so my inclination has been to seek psychotherapy. The inclination of the care providers has been to medicate me. So you can't tell me that psychotherapy is the preferred solution LOL - I know what I have experienced as a patient. I agree that people in the psychological trades are trained to respect the patient's religious beliefs and consider them in the diagnosis. Unfortunately, religious beliefs can mask psychological symptoms. I had brief psychotic disorder several years ago, but I did not understand what was wrong with me and my family assumed that my problems were religious rather than psychological. As a result, I did not get any treatment, and I switched briefly from an atheist to a deranged Eastern Orthodox. My priest and others that he gossiped with should have directed me to a psychiatrist, but instead they played along with me. After two years of Christianity, I finally began to realize that something was wrong, and I gradually came back to my senses (but not before I had given away most of my retirement savings and generally made a fool of myself). Thanks to religion, everybody around me was reluctant to interfere, so I only learned afterwards about psychosis when I saw a therapist. So that is the downside of being too considerate of religious people and their beliefs. (Sorry I guess that is a bit of rant LOL)
 
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