sorta ignorant, huh?

[mophed20]

ok, i may sound terribly ignorant to some....i was talking with a friend about it, and i realized that i know nothing about Messianic Judaism. but here it goes.

what did Messianic Judaism stem from? and i don't mean "the Jewish Religion and Christianity." i mean historically, where does it all fit? when did it start as a sect of Judaism/denomination of Christianity? i think that's it. but i look forward to a good discussion.

 

[A_Pioneer]

Ac 24:14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets,
From Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
A messianic Jew believes in the coming of the messiah, hence, Messianic Judahism!

On the Shavuos/pentecost, (Acts 2:41) 3,000 Believing Jews were saved and went to a mikvah/baptized.
Shalom

 

[Bananna]

I think he was asking about the modern Messianic Judaism. Jews retaining their Jewish Traditions after becoming Christians.

So many are being drawn back into Judaism right now that the whole thing is becoming a phenomena. At this point I'm hearing more conversions to Judaism than from Judaism to Christianity. It used to be the other way around.

I think though as long as it has been legal to retain their traditions, Jews have retained them when accepting Yeshua.

bananna

 

[mophed20]

don't all Jew's believe in the coming of the Messiah? or are you referring to Jesus? but i realized that, more or less. as you said, it's in the name.

well, i should probably elaborate a little. let me give an example of what i'm looking for. the early church started around 50ish years (can't really remember the real number, so i'm just estimating) after Christ died. the church split in 1053--the west and the east. the protestants split from the catholics, the copts split from the east to make the oriental orthodox church. now where does messianic Judaism fit into all that?

 

[Sephania]

They were shoved out, killed or went underground.

Not a Jew at the counsel of Nicea................

 

[mophed20]

when did Messianic Judaism become a denomination/sect/what-have-you of Judaism/Christianity?

that would make sense that there wouldn't be a Jew at the Council of Nicea. Cause it was a Christian council. why would they add yet another group with another theological difference, on top of the Nestorians and Arians and Sabellians. but that's all neither here nor there...

 

[A_Pioneer]

don't all Jew's believe in the coming of the Messiah? or are you referring to Jesus? but i realized that, more or less. as you said, it's in the name.

well, i should probably elaborate a little. let me give an example of what i'm looking for. the early church started around 50ish years (can't really remember the real number, so i'm just estimating) after Christ died. the church split in 1053--the west and the east. the protestants split from the catholics, the copts split from the east to make the oriental orthodox church. now where does messianic Judaism fit into all that?

So you were not looking for the "Truth", just a confirmation of how you heard it.

And no, not all Jews believe in the coming of the Messiah! Y H V H put a partial blindness on Israel for your sake;
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Believers in the Moshiach have been around from the time he walked the earth, yet for the most part they became a minority when Diocleation/sp tryed to wipe the Jews from the face of the earth, Messianics were caught in the cross hairs because they met with the rest of the Hebrew community on the Sabbath, heard the Torah preached and fellowshipped with them, then there was Constantine, making Sunday the day of rest and anyone caught keeping the sabbath, off with his head!

But my friend there was always believing Hebrews, being a major minority and being assimilated into the Christian community, like Jews for Jesus. In the not too distant past the finger of God began to start a revival of his people who had the testamony of Yeshua HaMoshiach and keep the commandments, this is why they became visable to you and the rest of the Christian Church.

BTW Jesus Christ was coined by the foes of the Way!
What do you think Mariam, his mother called him?
I'd bet you a nickel against a hole in a doughnut, that it was not Iasous!

Shalom

 

[Sephania]

when did Messianic Judaism become a denomination/sect/what-have-you of Judaism/Christianity?

that would make sense that there wouldn't be a Jew at the Council of Nicea. Cause it was a Christian council. why would they add yet another group with another theological difference, on top of the Nestorians and Arians and Sabellians. but that's all neither here nor there...

No, theological difference would only be because they were Jews, nothing else. I was speaking of those who believed Yeshua was the promised Messiah. If the apostles would have been around then, they would have qualified for this description, yet they too would not have been invited. At the time there were something like 18 Jewish 'bishops' in the world and not a one was not invited to participate, makes you wonder why, huh?

 

[A_Pioneer]

when did Messianic Judaism become a denomination/sect/what-have-you of Judaism/Christianity?

that would make sense that there wouldn't be a Jew at the Council of Nicea. Cause it was a Christian council. why would they add yet another group with another theological difference, on top of the Nestorians and Arians and Sabellians. but that's all neither here nor there...

How about the group who was threatened with excomuncation, the Quartodecimans.

Shalom

 

[debi b]

How about the group who was threatened with excomuncation, the Quartodecimans.

Shalom

Most people would need to look that one up

 

[A_Pioneer]

Most people would need to look that one up

LOL! Why didn't I think of that?
But that was the idea!

 

[GooberJIL]

Believers in the Moshiach have been around from the time he walked the earth, yet for the most part they became a minority when Diocletian/sp tried to wipe the Jews from the face of the earth, Messianics were caught in the cross hairs because they met with the rest of the Hebrew community on the Sabbath, heard the Torah preached and fellowshipped with them, then there was Constantine, making Sunday the day of rest and anyone caught keeping the sabbath, off with his head!

Ac 24:14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets,
From Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
A messianic Jew believes in the coming of the messiah, hence, Messianic Judahism!

On the Shavuos/pentecost, (Acts 2:41) 3,000 Believing Jews were saved and went to a mikvah/baptized.
Shalom

IMHO: "Messianic Judaism" was the original 'religion.' My research a couple of dead computers ago indicated that the Jews and Gentiles worshiped together on the Sabbath, etc. The only differentiation between them was some believed Jesus was the Messiah and others didn't. Once the post-Cross uprisings/wars/revolts began, Rome started persecuting the Jews anew for this, since they couldn't tell the non-Christian Jews from the Christians and persecuted both. (much the same as we can't tell the difference between a Shiite and Sunni Muslim) The Christians(Jew and Gentile), not wanting to be persecuted for what the non-Christian Jews did, began to separate themselves from them. At first this was done by no longer going to synagogue and then not keeping the Sabbath by substituting meeting on Sundays. At some point prayer shawls, shofars, feasts, etc. disappeared. By the time of the Constantine council there was not much left except for a few small groups that remained true to the original and the council formally abolished Sabbath worship and condemned what we would call Messianic Christianity, labeling them 'Judaizers' and making their practices heresies.

Since I know of no site that puts this all together, you've got alot of reading to do if you are serious about learning.

links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schisms_among_the_Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/37*.html

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-2.htm

 

[mophed20]

IMHO: "Messianic Judaism" was the original 'religion.' My research a couple of dead computers ago indicated that the Jews and Gentiles worshiped together on the Sabbath, etc. The only differentiation between them was some believed Jesus was the Messiah and others didn't. Once the post-Cross uprisings/wars/revolts began, Rome started persecuting the Jews anew for this, since they couldn't tell the non-Christian Jews from the Christians and persecuted both. (much the same as we can't tell the difference between a Shiite and Sunni Muslim) The Christians(Jew and Gentile), not wanting to be persecuted for what the non-Christian Jews did, began to separate themselves from them. At first this was done by no longer going to synagogue and then not keeping the Sabbath by substituting meeting on Sundays. At some point prayer shawls, shofars, feasts, etc. disappeared. By the time of the Constantine council there was not much left except for a few small groups that remained true to the original and the council formally abolished Sabbath worship and condemned what we would call Messianic Christianity, labeling them 'Judaizers' and making their practices heresies.

Since I know of no site that puts this all together, you've got alot of reading to do if you are serious about learning.

links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schisms_among_the_Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/37*.html

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-2.htm

thanks goober! this was, in some ways, what i was looking for. not necessarily what Messianic Jews believe in. i will look into those resources you provided soon when i have some more time. i'd really like for this discussion to evolve, so let's not call it an end. thanks again.

david

 

[Kalanit]

The Term "Messianic Christianity" really doesn't make sense. It was and is Messianic JUDAISM. Because it was a Jewish sect - not a Greek/Roman sect. It was a sect of Jewish faith & thought process.

 

[Yahudim]

The Term "Messianic Christianity" really doesn't make sense. It was and is Messianic JUDAISM. Because it was a Jewish sect - not a Greek/Roman sect. It was a sect of Jewish faith & thought process.

Well... not entirely correct. I mean that it is an understandable mistake, Christian being the Greek term for Messianic and all.

The Jews already had a reputation in the ancient world as blessed by Elohim and as a remarkably educated society. Almost all of the Jewish children were taught how to read and write and to critically reason from a very early age. This was not the norm with most ancient populations. So when the teachings of their religion were opened up to the Gentiles, it wasn't long after the passing of the Apostles that the makeup of the early church went from a majority of Jewish believers in Yeshua to a majority of Gentiles. The reasons are manifold. And attrition through political, theological and racial genocide not the least among them.

 

[GooberJIL]

The Term "Messianic Christianity" really doesn't make sense. It was and is Messianic JUDAISM. Because it was a Jewish sect - not a Greek/Roman sect. It was a sect of Jewish faith & thought process.

six in one hand; half dozen in the other to me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

don't all Jew's believe in the coming of the Messiah? or are you referring to Jesus? but i realized that, more or less. as you said, it's in the name.

well, i should probably elaborate a little. let me give an example of what i'm looking for. the early church started around 50ish years (can't really remember the real number, so i'm just estimating) after Christ died. the church split in 1053--the west and the east. the protestants split from the catholics, the copts split from the east to make the oriental orthodox church. now where does messianic Judaism fit into all that?

interjection:>

the called out ones who followed and lived in Yeshua did not split in 1053, nor in any other year.
it was an always apostate (not faithful) organization that split in 1053; an organization/religion/government that put to death the believers who lived Yhwh's Life and obeyed Him;
just as today, around the world in most if not all countries; this is so.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

btw, so you know ahead of time = it is getting exceedingly harder to find an honest website; just a few years ago, you could usually find 3 out of the first 10 on a google with key words including truth truthseekers holiness and so on....... now, in an all too short time, the internet is inundated with totally false sites, many many pretenders, many many claiming to be authoritative, and so on, yet virtually all with the sole purpose of deceiving you, just as mans' organizations have done since the tower of babel. This of course includes almost all religious sites and groups, in the usa and throughout the world. [exactly as Yhwh said would happen, exactly as it is written and remains unchanged].

 

[Maiseyjo]

No, theological difference would only be because they were Jews, nothing else. I was speaking of those who believed Yeshua was the promised Messiah. If the apostles would have been around then, they would have qualified for this description, yet they too would not have been invited. At the time there were something like 18 Jewish 'bishops' in the world and not a one was not invited to participate, makes you wonder why, huh?

The "true" truth of the messianic heritage and actually I guess the true truth of the true church is so fasinating to me and I am so ignorant of it! Like the fact that you quoted about there being 18 jewish "bishops" at the time of the council.

Can you please share where I can learn more about all of this? Maybe share some websites? I've found a few and learned about some of it but I have a feeling I only know a teeny teeny bit. I'd really like to know more if anyone can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it!

 

[Maiseyjo]

Since I know of no site that puts this all together, you've got alot of reading to do if you are serious about learning.

links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schisms_among_the_Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/37*.html

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-2.htm

I posted my request about sites before I read all the post on the thread. I will start to look up these sites now.