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Sometimes I feel so tired
- Thread starter rogsr
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rogsr, I don't know what I can say
Pehaps you're right. Pehaps there's something lacking on some views of Christianity. Pehaps, like our Master Jesus, when He Washed the feet of His apostles, we should focus on serving the others. No matter who. Do to those in need, in order to Do for Jesus. And let our acts, our way of life, speak much louder than words.
But, ah, how difficult this is.
rogsr, I don't know what I can say.
We have personal needs, interests, bills to pay. And we have a biological, animal need for safety. to gain that, we look for those like us.
And it only can have "those like us", if we have "the others". And, since the world is world, it has being like so. We against them.
We can count on the fingers the ones who overcome this barrier. It's not, not easy at all.
rogsr, I don't know what I can say.
All we can do is pray for the change begin with each one of us. To improve, each day, in direction of Christ's Example. Maybe, one day...
peace
coyoteBR
Pehaps you're right. Pehaps there's something lacking on some views of Christianity. Pehaps, like our Master Jesus, when He Washed the feet of His apostles, we should focus on serving the others. No matter who. Do to those in need, in order to Do for Jesus. And let our acts, our way of life, speak much louder than words.
But, ah, how difficult this is.
rogsr, I don't know what I can say.
We have personal needs, interests, bills to pay. And we have a biological, animal need for safety. to gain that, we look for those like us.
And it only can have "those like us", if we have "the others". And, since the world is world, it has being like so. We against them.
We can count on the fingers the ones who overcome this barrier. It's not, not easy at all.
rogsr, I don't know what I can say.
All we can do is pray for the change begin with each one of us. To improve, each day, in direction of Christ's Example. Maybe, one day...
peace
coyoteBR
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Rev. Smith
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Many sects truly believe that their theology/ecclesiology (even the ones who deny haveing either) is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth and thus all of the rest of us are in grave peril of our souls. For those folks we are truly frustrating. Unlike atheists or members of other, non-judeo christian creeds, we are "almost saved" in their eyes. We have the basics, belief in Christ as the redeemer of the world, the Father and Holy Spirit and so on. As close as we get, they are sure we arn't really saved because we're doing it wrong, or don't have some essential element of doctrine to save us.
Others fear we will lead the lurkers astray, they welcome us to our damnation but feel if they don't dispute or heritical views then some other soul out there will be lead astray.
I, for one, just keep trying to share with any who care to listen, pray and love the Lord.
Others fear we will lead the lurkers astray, they welcome us to our damnation but feel if they don't dispute or heritical views then some other soul out there will be lead astray.
I, for one, just keep trying to share with any who care to listen, pray and love the Lord.
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Speaking as "one of them," I can tell you it makes me tired as well. Even the apparently well meaning comments of Rev. Smith come almost like a slap in the face. I mean, is it possible that we post publically for the same reasons you do? Is it possible we feel for the wounds of people, but that we also feel that it is a false comfort being offered sometimes when people teach things contrary to the Bible?
The constant accusation of traditional, normal Christian views as somehow only being motivated by fear, anger, or misunderstanding is as grinding to us as our ideas are to you.
The constant accusation of traditional, normal Christian views as somehow only being motivated by fear, anger, or misunderstanding is as grinding to us as our ideas are to you.
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Do you honestly think that you have the absolute interpretation on everything in the bible? I don't know about you but I learn new things every single day. I don't appreciate being talked down to by a fundy every single time I offer advice to someone who is suffering. I have an education and a lot of 'life expierience' to back it up not just a few memorized verses and some harsh words. Their is an entire world full of different kinds of Christians that live in totally different realites than you and I do and I would like for us to start to think about that a little more before we go castrating each other. I also don't like being spoken to like I've never read the bible. I've read the gospels more times than I can count, I've put into practice, and I've come out with a certain mind set. I assume that you have done the same and I am happy that you are here also to offer a helping hand in the process of helping fellow brothers and sisters through the beating that is life, but why do many of you have to shove your particular mind set down everyones throat? The faith is the same but the life expieriences that build on that faith are different...sometimes very different.
I love all of you but it would be nice not to bump heads all the time. It's irritating and counter-productive,
Peace-
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Hi rogsr:
Can I ask, is it conservative or liberal views that erk you the most, or is it both?? At this point I'm not certain if your a conservative fed up with liberal views or the other way round? I think a healthy exchange of ideas is a good thing, but it seems that conservative are the ones always thinking their views are the correct views. Am I wrong??
Can I ask, is it conservative or liberal views that erk you the most, or is it both?? At this point I'm not certain if your a conservative fed up with liberal views or the other way round? I think a healthy exchange of ideas is a good thing, but it seems that conservative are the ones always thinking their views are the correct views. Am I wrong??
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Well apenman, if that is your real name...
I might be labeled as a liberal. I am an episcopal and we are often known for being liberal. However, I would consider myself a moderate..that is just a bit left of center. But none of that really matters anyway. It makes me really sad(honestly) when people call me a false teacher or...ask an unwed mother(coworker of mine) to leave their church because she is unwed. Who has the right to call me a false teacher except for the Lord? I wouldn't be here writing this today if Jesus thought I was a false teacher. But I understand where the right wing is coming from. Being legalistic is like carrying around a huge shield; and being loving to everyone is like carrying around a huge spear. The shield will guard you but the spear strikes fear into the devil's soul. Somewhere along the line I had a thought and came to the conclusion that it is better to be a little to lenient then a little to harsh. But it seems like more and more people feel the opposite is true. Please forgive the choppyness of this post, I just got off work and am totally whipped. Thanks for reading.
Sean
I might be labeled as a liberal. I am an episcopal and we are often known for being liberal. However, I would consider myself a moderate..that is just a bit left of center. But none of that really matters anyway. It makes me really sad(honestly) when people call me a false teacher or...ask an unwed mother(coworker of mine) to leave their church because she is unwed. Who has the right to call me a false teacher except for the Lord? I wouldn't be here writing this today if Jesus thought I was a false teacher. But I understand where the right wing is coming from. Being legalistic is like carrying around a huge shield; and being loving to everyone is like carrying around a huge spear. The shield will guard you but the spear strikes fear into the devil's soul. Somewhere along the line I had a thought and came to the conclusion that it is better to be a little to lenient then a little to harsh. But it seems like more and more people feel the opposite is true. Please forgive the choppyness of this post, I just got off work and am totally whipped. Thanks for reading.Sean
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When you get beat up by the world and those around you....hold on. God gives you the biggest blessings during this time. These times soften you up and make you maleable.
I am going through such times right now.....it is so exciting, and wonderful....full of promise......full of true love......Christ coming out in me......enduring the trials.
I am going through such times right now.....it is so exciting, and wonderful....full of promise......full of true love......Christ coming out in me......enduring the trials.
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Hi rogsr!
Yes, apenman is my real name, Alexander Penman. I to have been beaten up by life at times, quite extensively actually. Years ago, my mother & I attended an open brethren church, my mom was single after leaving an abusive husband, the church people thought it important to point out that because she left her husband, she was paying double rent. No thought "at all" of the abusive side of the equation.
Your right, it is better to be lenient. And, to be wary of conservatives who think that "only they have the truth." The fact is they do not understand the law of the new covenant, being the "Law of Christ", and this means their religion-based theoligies aren't worth much. Christ opposed the religious people of his time, calling them blind guides. Well, I can tell you that the Pharisees are alive and well on planet earth. So, don't take what they say to heart.
Yes, apenman is my real name, Alexander Penman. I to have been beaten up by life at times, quite extensively actually. Years ago, my mother & I attended an open brethren church, my mom was single after leaving an abusive husband, the church people thought it important to point out that because she left her husband, she was paying double rent. No thought "at all" of the abusive side of the equation.
Your right, it is better to be lenient. And, to be wary of conservatives who think that "only they have the truth." The fact is they do not understand the law of the new covenant, being the "Law of Christ", and this means their religion-based theoligies aren't worth much. Christ opposed the religious people of his time, calling them blind guides. Well, I can tell you that the Pharisees are alive and well on planet earth. So, don't take what they say to heart.
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UberLutheran
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I really do.
Earlier this summer, I attended the state assembly for my denomination, which spent very little time (about 1/2 hour) discussing motions and problems which affect a very great number of people (genocide in Africa, starvation, lack of health care, the problems of the elderly who have to choose between purchasing necessary health care and purchasing food) and SIX HOURS discussing homosexuals in the church.
I didn't make any points when I suggested that people "buy a vowel" and realize that there have always BEEN homosexuals in the church; there would always BE homosexuals in the church; and if we're interested in ridding the church of "those AWFUL sinners" we'd better be prepared to leave, ourselves, because there is "no one righteous, no, not one" in and of anything we do on our behalf aside from our righteousness through Christ -- and even then, we were still sinners.
I have received hate mail from posters on this forum -- and some of the mail I've received has been REALLY nasty. I think the idea was that if I received email which was foul enough, and personally threatening enough, that I would back down. Problem is: I usually don't back down, period. I certainly did before I accepted the idea of justification by grace, through faith, and gave my soul to Christ without any holding back -- but that doesn't happen much, now.
It happens on the the anonymity of forum boards, too -- as a Christian who is also a liberal, there are things I believe which I'm willing to discuss, but I'm not willing to compromise on -- and when people hit one of those boundaries, sparks tend to fly. (I think the general idea is that I'm supposed to roll over, but people tend to be surprised when I don't do that.)
It does get old, after awhile. Very recently, I got fed up with the attacks on CF to the point where I was ready to leave -- and in fact, closing up shop, when someone wrote to me and said while she disagreed with much of what I said, my sincerity was obvious and she referred to me as a "Warrior for Christ." That was all I needed -- and I think there really ARE times when ALL of us need that kind of reassurance.
It helps to remember that it was not easy for Jesus to be Jesus and do what He had to do -- so if we're being challenged, at least we're in good company. God never promised us "fair" (and Jesus certainly never got "fair", especially at the end of His life on Earth), but He did promise us the Holy Spirit and grace sufficient for every need. I find it helpful to remember that.
Earlier this summer, I attended the state assembly for my denomination, which spent very little time (about 1/2 hour) discussing motions and problems which affect a very great number of people (genocide in Africa, starvation, lack of health care, the problems of the elderly who have to choose between purchasing necessary health care and purchasing food) and SIX HOURS discussing homosexuals in the church.
I didn't make any points when I suggested that people "buy a vowel" and realize that there have always BEEN homosexuals in the church; there would always BE homosexuals in the church; and if we're interested in ridding the church of "those AWFUL sinners" we'd better be prepared to leave, ourselves, because there is "no one righteous, no, not one" in and of anything we do on our behalf aside from our righteousness through Christ -- and even then, we were still sinners.
I have received hate mail from posters on this forum -- and some of the mail I've received has been REALLY nasty. I think the idea was that if I received email which was foul enough, and personally threatening enough, that I would back down. Problem is: I usually don't back down, period. I certainly did before I accepted the idea of justification by grace, through faith, and gave my soul to Christ without any holding back -- but that doesn't happen much, now.
It happens on the the anonymity of forum boards, too -- as a Christian who is also a liberal, there are things I believe which I'm willing to discuss, but I'm not willing to compromise on -- and when people hit one of those boundaries, sparks tend to fly. (I think the general idea is that I'm supposed to roll over, but people tend to be surprised when I don't do that.)
It does get old, after awhile. Very recently, I got fed up with the attacks on CF to the point where I was ready to leave -- and in fact, closing up shop, when someone wrote to me and said while she disagreed with much of what I said, my sincerity was obvious and she referred to me as a "Warrior for Christ." That was all I needed -- and I think there really ARE times when ALL of us need that kind of reassurance.
It helps to remember that it was not easy for Jesus to be Jesus and do what He had to do -- so if we're being challenged, at least we're in good company. God never promised us "fair" (and Jesus certainly never got "fair", especially at the end of His life on Earth), but He did promise us the Holy Spirit and grace sufficient for every need. I find it helpful to remember that.
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Apenman,
Thanks for sharing that story about you and your mom, that is exactly what I am talking about. It's is frustrating and really sad because your mom I'm sure was a sheep that really needed the shepherd at that time and they tried to keep them apart.
One other thing is that I think the Old Covenant Law was also based on love too but most people couldn't see that. I was walking around one night at my job and was thinking and WHAM! it occured to me. Like "You shall not commit adultery" Who gets hurt when a man sleeps with another man's wife?......If you said everyone you're a winner! God, with the Law, seems like He was trying to keep us all away from suffering. Do you catch what I'm saying...It's always been about love, even in the days of the Law when everyone thought God was some angry and distant diety. God gave us the law to free us from suffering not to bind us and hold us down with rules and regulations.
Thanks for sharing that story about you and your mom, that is exactly what I am talking about. It's is frustrating and really sad because your mom I'm sure was a sheep that really needed the shepherd at that time and they tried to keep them apart.
One other thing is that I think the Old Covenant Law was also based on love too but most people couldn't see that. I was walking around one night at my job and was thinking and WHAM! it occured to me. Like "You shall not commit adultery" Who gets hurt when a man sleeps with another man's wife?......If you said everyone you're a winner! God, with the Law, seems like He was trying to keep us all away from suffering. Do you catch what I'm saying...It's always been about love, even in the days of the Law when everyone thought God was some angry and distant diety. God gave us the law to free us from suffering not to bind us and hold us down with rules and regulations.
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One of the common definitions of the words "evil" & "sin" is "the harm that has been done." I believe in God's eyes, sin is all about the harm we do to one another, as opposed to breaking this law, or that law. In Matthew 12:36 Christ talks about giving account for "every careless word", because it is crimes against love and mercy that are crimes against the "law of Christ."
Unfortunately, there are sooo many religious Christians who don't get this. They are so focused on religion that they have left love far behind, and the unconditional love of God is something that they can only talk about, or they are only words on a page, in a sermon.
Christ accused the Pharisees of keeping the ceremony of the law, but forgetting love, mercy & justice. Well, this occurs more in our world today than it ever did back then. It is said that history repeats itself. Well, there are many Christians today, who look at the mistakes made by the Pharisees, without understanding that they have gone down the exact same road themselves.
Here are some thoughts on sin and evil:
The Hebrew root word for sin is "chata" (khaw-taw’ which means "to miss." It also means "the harm that has been done." If the real goal in life is love, compassion or caring, then harming others would definitely be the opposite of this goal.
The Greek word for sin is "hamartano" (ham-ar-tan’-o) which means "to miss the mark." If the mark is to care, be compassionate or love, then harming others would certainly be missing this mark. The Hebrew root word for evil is "raa" (raw-ah’ which means "to be bad, evil, injurious, wicked and to do injury or hurt." Again we see the definition of "doing injury to", or harming others which is definitely the opposite of caring or love. The Greek word for evil is "poneros" (pon-ay-ros’ which means "hurtful."
Unfortunately, there are sooo many religious Christians who don't get this. They are so focused on religion that they have left love far behind, and the unconditional love of God is something that they can only talk about, or they are only words on a page, in a sermon.
Christ accused the Pharisees of keeping the ceremony of the law, but forgetting love, mercy & justice. Well, this occurs more in our world today than it ever did back then. It is said that history repeats itself. Well, there are many Christians today, who look at the mistakes made by the Pharisees, without understanding that they have gone down the exact same road themselves.
Here are some thoughts on sin and evil:
The Hebrew root word for sin is "chata" (khaw-taw’
which means "to miss." It also means "the harm that has been done." If the real goal in life is love, compassion or caring, then harming others would definitely be the opposite of this goal.The Greek word for sin is "hamartano" (ham-ar-tan’-o) which means "to miss the mark." If the mark is to care, be compassionate or love, then harming others would certainly be missing this mark. The Hebrew root word for evil is "raa" (raw-ah’
which means "to be bad, evil, injurious, wicked and to do injury or hurt." Again we see the definition of "doing injury to", or harming others which is definitely the opposite of caring or love. The Greek word for evil is "poneros" (pon-ay-ros’ which means "hurtful."
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What is a traditional, normal Christian view? I was in a fundamentalist church for most of my life, and their "traditions" were all of 50 years old. And how can something define as "normal" when there are 20,000 splinters of the Reformation?
Rev. Smith's words were remarkable, and I totally agree with him.
You mean contrary to the latest public debate, don't you? Abortion, homosexuality, that sort of thing. (It was justification for slavery 150 years ago I think.)
Please understand that "this side" feels that the goal of many Christians to establish a political kingdom on earth is a direct contradiction to the Bible. That's one "contrary" teaching just for example.
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Hey UberLutheran!
I am always hopefull that the Lord will deliver us from his followers (hehe). Seriously, if we don't stand up to all this "right wing" ignorance, who will?? They don't understand the "Law of Christ." It isn't a part of their theologies so the conclusions are all religious conclusions. They become so focused on beliefs, that love gets run out of town.
I am always hopefull that the Lord will deliver us from his followers (hehe). Seriously, if we don't stand up to all this "right wing" ignorance, who will?? They don't understand the "Law of Christ." It isn't a part of their theologies so the conclusions are all religious conclusions. They become so focused on beliefs, that love gets run out of town.
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BarbB
I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!
rogsr said:
I have bolded your second paragraph, rogsr, because it was realizing this that really opened my eyes to the fact that God loves us and wants us to be happy, healthy, AND as holy as we can be. Our holiness is completed by the blood of Jesus and our repentence of our sins previous to our "conversion". God never gave us the law because of anger; he gave it because of love!
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We could pretend to take sides and argue both. Then switch sides and keep up the debate. That way rogsr wouldn't have to commit himself. He could start the John Kerry wing of liberal theology.apenman said:
Do you have a specific theological question in mind?
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Sharp said:
Chocolate or vanilla?
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Robert Johnson - Hell Hound on My Trail
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Well sharp if you saw the OP I'm sure that you could see that I erased it. I did this becuase what I wrote would have started an ugly 'debate.' Why did you want to sound so hostile towards me? It seems like you're attacking me, is that what you are doing?
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