Something I've been pondering.....

[Imblessed]

Ok, so about 6 months ago, I discovered and embraced the Doctrines of Grace, finding it to answer many unanswered questions I'd had for so long----but there is one thing that I keep coming back to again and again.......

We all agree that faith is a gift from God, that regeneration preceeds faith, and that "Free will" is a myth of Pelegianism, right? Those who God chooses WILL come, and God will not lose any one He has chosen.

My question is this--how does this work after one has been called and has responded to Him--how does the whole "will" thing work? What I mean is this(if I can get it across on the screen right)....hmmm how do I put this? It's rapidly becoming hard to get out.......

Ok, arminianism is the view that we are drawn by the HS, but ultimately it is us that makes the choice to follow God or not(the God is a gentleman bit....) And after we have given our lives to God, then it is our responsibility to learn and grow in Christ to become better christians.....

We all know there are good christians and bad christians. By "bad" christians I mean people who don't grow in their faith, or people who are still strongly tied to their carnal selves.

How much responsibility does God place on us to grow and learn after we have made that commitment? The theory of free will being that we will always choose what is most appealing to us at any given moment in time seems to fall apart a bit when you start thinking about the issue of our growth and spiritual maturity. Some people just don't mature in their faith, and don't seem to want to while others really make an effort. How much of that is God-granted do you thinK? I mean, if our salvation is purely of God(and I firmly believe this) then how much of our spiritual maturity is also of God, or how much of this maturity do you think God places on us, as our responsibility?

Am I making any sense? I sure hope so. I've been pondering this for quite a while now, and would like some imput from my Reformed and Calvinistic Brothers and Sisters.

Maybe someone knows a good book that speaks on this topic?

Thanks for any and all replies, guys(and gals)!

 

[Jon_]

Ok, so about 6 months ago, I discovered and embraced the Doctrines of Grace, finding it to answer many unanswered questions I'd had for so long----but there is one thing that I keep coming back to again and again.......

We all agree that faith is a gift from God, that regeneration preceeds faith, and that "Free will" is a myth of Pelegianism, right? Those who God chooses WILL come, and God will not lose any one He has chosen.

My question is this--how does this work after one has been called and has responded to Him--how does the whole "will" thing work? What I mean is this(if I can get it across on the screen right)....hmmm how do I put this? It's rapidly becoming hard to get out.......

Ok, arminianism is the view that we are drawn by the HS, but ultimately it is us that makes the choice to follow God or not(the God is a gentleman bit....) And after we have given our lives to God, then it is our responsibility to learn and grow in Christ to become better christians.....

We all know there are good christians and bad christians. By "bad" christians I mean people who don't grow in their faith, or people who are still strongly tied to their carnal selves.

How much responsibility does God place on us to grow and learn after we have made that commitment? The theory of free will being that we will always choose what is most appealing to us at any given moment in time seems to fall apart a bit when you start thinking about the issue of our growth and spiritual maturity. Some people just don't mature in their faith, and don't seem to want to while others really make an effort. How much of that is God-granted do you thinK? I mean, if our salvation is purely of God(and I firmly believe this) then how much of our spiritual maturity is also of God, or how much of this maturity do you think God places on us, as our responsibility?

Am I making any sense? I sure hope so. I've been pondering this for quite a while now, and would like some imput from my Reformed and Calvinistic Brothers and Sisters.

Maybe someone knows a good book that speaks on this topic?

Thanks for any and all replies, guys(and gals)!

I empathize with you, Windi. I have the same questions as well. For me, my unorthodox theory of hamartiology (sin) leads me to a natural necessary conclusion regarding post-regenerative capability. This conclusion is superficially antinomian (antinomians concur with my view of hamartiology), which has given me pause, so I don't really want to share it until I am covinced one way or another that it is wrong.

The orthodox Reformed view is that regeneration breaks the bonds of sin from our will. That is, we are enabled to choose to do good works. Where before regeneration we were free to choose, but only chose evil, after regeneration we are still free to choose, but we also will choose good (else we aren't really regenerated). Therefore, the post-regenerative work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the saint is viewed as synergistic. Not only do we assent the Holy Spirit's work, but we also will righteousness of our will, which is according to God's will. This is also the traditional prelapsarian (before the fall) view of Adam's ability. Where we were dead in Adam and had only the ability to sin and not the ability to not sin, in Christ we have been given the ability to not sin, but not yet the inability to sin (that is, we can and will still sin). This is identical to the state of Adam before the fall, able to sin and to not sin. By his sin all of mankind sinned with him and violated the covenant of works, so that God's purpose and calling according to election and grace would stand.

Some good Reformed sources to consult would be the Westminster Confession and the Shorter and Larger Catechisms. They deal with this issue in detail and authority.

On the other hand, if you are struggling with the philosophical implications of this and the (apparent) lack of biblical basis for this view, then you're in the same boat as me. I fully understand the Reformed view and teaching on this issue, I'm just unconvinced that it is accurate.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Imblessed--consider two verses"

(1) "thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."

(2) "blessed is the man whom you choose and CAUSE to approach unto you that he may dwell in thy courts." (caps mine)

 

[frumanchu]

Windi, it's very easy for us, especially we who embrace Calvinism after formerly being Arminian, to feel that all things can and must be explained exhaustively. The truth is that this is a mystery which is only lightly touched upon in Scripture. He is at work within us both to will and to do for His good pleasure, but we are not mere puppets or robots. Philosophically this issue is enough to make your head explode. The Trinity is another doctrine which can do the same, and like that doctrine we are very often left with an understanding of it only in part insofar as it is revealed to us in the Word. I cannot explain to you with any thoroughness how exactly Christ is both fully human and fully God, yet this is an undeniable truth of Scripture.

Suffice it to say that we are encouraged and admonished to diligence and growth in the pages of Scripture, and we are responsible to those admonitions. Nevertheless God is sovereign over our lives.

 

[Imblessed]

thanks for the responses guys...I was beginning to wonder if anyone had even seen the OP!

Jon--

The orthodox Reformed view is that regeneration breaks the bonds of sin from our will. That is, we are enabled to choose to do good works. Where before regeneration we were free to choose, but only chose evil, after regeneration we are still free to choose, but we also will choose good (else we aren't really regenerated). Therefore, the post-regenerative work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the saint is viewed as synergistic. Not only do we assent the Holy Spirit's work, but we also will righteousness of our will, which is according to God's will. This is also the traditional prelapsarian (before the fall) view of Adam's ability. Where we were dead in Adam and had only the ability to sin and not the ability to not sin, in Christ we have been given the ability to not sin, but not yet the inability to sin (that is, we can and will still sin). This is identical to the state of Adam before the fall, able to sin and to not sin. By his sin all of mankind sinned with him and violated the covenant of works, so that God's purpose and calling according to election and grace would stand.

I understand this, but as you say, it doesn't really answer the question for me. I know quite a few non-christians who do good things that are still considered "evil" because they aren't saved. My personal belief is that even an unregenerate person is "capable" of doing good things, but it's only "good" in OUR view, and definately not good enough for God. However the regenerated person's "good deeds" (which are identical in our own views as the unregenerate person's) are counted as righteousness, simply because we are now doing these things for God and not just for our own personal satisfaction or societal acceptance. Make sense?
but it doesn't answer the question as to why some christians never seem to get past "1'st base" so to speak when it comes to maturing in Christ.

On the other hand, if you are struggling with the philosophicalimplications of this and the (apparent) lack of biblical basis for this view, then you're in the same boat as me. I fully understand the Reformed view and teaching on this issue, I'm just unconvinced that it is accurate.

I think you are right, it's more the philosophical issue than anything......and since I'm not reformed (merely a lowly Calvinist.....he he he) the 'reformed' view is not something I"m terribly familiar with, not having read the catechisms or confessions.......

Rolf---

Imblessed--consider two verses"

(1) "thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."

(2) "blessed is the man whom you choose and CAUSE to approach unto you that he may dwell in thy courts." (caps mine)

My question is more why some seem to be more willing than others......and how God's sovereignity comes into play on this "willingness" . Good verses though........

Fru-----

Windi, it's very easy for us, especially we who embrace Calvinism after formerly being Arminian, to feel that all things can and must be explained exhaustively.

I about fell off the chair when I read that. SOOO true!

The truth is that this is a mystery which is only lightly touched upon in Scripture. He is at work within us both to will and to do for His good pleasure, but we are not mere puppets or robots. Philosophically this issue is enough to make your head explode.

A mystery indeed! and yes, I have a "headache" over it!! LOL

The Trinity is another doctrine which can do the same, and like that doctrine we are very often left with an understanding of it only in part insofar as it is revealed to us in the Word. I cannot explain to you with any thoroughness how exactly Christ is both fully human and fully God, yet this is an undeniable truth of Scripture.

Agreed, and yet for some reason, I am fully capable of accepting the mystery of the Trinity, but this "problem" is one I feel I must solve, because I think something important to my personal walk is at the end of it. There is something important I feel I am missing, or not understanding........

Suffice it to say that we are encouraged and admonished to diligence and growth in the pages of Scripture, and we are responsible to those admonitions. Nevertheless God is sovereign over our lives.

Accademically I can understand and accept that, but emotionally.....well, that's a different thing all together.


OBTW,

I will be leaving tomorrow(friday)evening for an extended vacation with the family so I don't know how much time I'll have for posting. I MAY get a little time tomorrow and saturday as I'll be at my mom's for a couple of days, but Sunday I'll be at King's Island and monday am early we will be leaving for Colorado, then on to California, and visiting family in Arizona and Texas on the way back home. All in the car, with my 2 boys (4 and 6). Please pray for our safety (and sanity--lol) on the trip. We will be out for 3 weeks!!!! I'm really looking forward to it--hope we all survive each other. Luckily, the boys are really really good travelers(hope that lasts!) and Matt and I do love being together....so I think it will be a great trip!

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Sounds like a fun trip!

I have been a Calvinist for... oh... a year and a half now, and understand the wrestling match going on in your head right now. I have come to the conclusion that free will remains within us, and have found that it truly is a matter of going to that which most delights you. God changes your heart, which changes the kind of thing that would delight you, to put it very simply. Consider Romans 6:17, for example. We have become obedient, but where does this obedience originate? According to this verse it originates in the heart. God places a longing for Him where before there was no longing. This is true of any Christian whether they be Calvinist or not. The only difference is how an Arminian Christian (and they are out there!) understands what has transpired.

If I were to use one verse, and one verse alone, to define conversion, it would be Matthew 13:44: The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

The treasure is there, but not everybody has found it. When someone does find it and sees the infinite value of it, they find joy in replacing their reliance on the works of their hands for their security with the neverending treasure that is Christ. But before any change in lifestyle is made, before repentance, before faith, before any of it, they are given their first glimpse of treasure unequaled and are shown the value. Thus, trading their cracked cysterns away is not work, but joy.

And yes, they have made a choice. They have made an educated choice where before, they had no choice but to remain ignorant to the treasure that has always been in that field.

Man, am I getting poetic, or what?

 

[Imblessed]

.....you must spread some reputation around before giving it to coffee swirls again......

Happy birthday to you,
happy birthday to you,
happy birthday dear Coooofffffeeeeeeee,
happy birthday to youuuuuuuuuuu..........

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Imblessed--As to the responsibility the Lord lays upon us to grow, Consider that God's first purpose for us is that we be conformed to the image of His Son. Paul says that "all things work together for good for us," and they do so through God's working through "all things" to conform us to the image of His Son. How high that aspiration! How divorced from the ways of the world, and what hasty steps it makes to our blessedness--to be conformed to the image of Christ. As Paul said, so also must we say--"not that I have attained...but I press forward

Remember the pathway we must be careful that our feet are on in the pursuing of this lofty goal --"He hath given unto us ALL things that pertain unto life and Godliness THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM..." though unspoken in these words, yet by the truth they speak, we hear again our Father say, "Be conformed to the imagfe of My Son." because when we consider, who mastered "all things that pertain unto life and Godliness" but our Lord and Savior?

Thoughts like this bring to our mind the admonition of Christ--"take my yoke upon you and learn of me."