Something I really don't understand...

[TheChristEffect]

What bothers me the most is when people constantly talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is great... BUT I believe that you can make Him an idol over God. I do believe the Holy Spirit IS God but a separate person.

It's like some people worship tongues or prophecy when really it should be about a LOVE relationship with God.

Our salvation is not dependant on the Gifts of the Spirit, although they are a great thing to have in our Christian walk, but it is dependant on our walk with God.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I mean come on... anyone can tell a sincere post asking about the Holy Spirit or anything about the Word of God... but I just don't get why they put the emphasis on the GIFTS instead of the stuff that really matters, like how to walk in the ways of God, or how to be prepared when a trial gets you from behind.

And for those of you who think, "Aww come on... you're just not having faith!" Let me tell you something... I may not have the faith I COULD have but I'm getting there. But I do have discernment and some things here just have to be seen from discernment... I mean doesn't anyone here think that some people are just wanting attention? Or just wanting to start a spark then leave before it's finished?

 

[FireOfGod]

What bothers me the most is when people constantly talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is great... BUT I believe that you can make Him an idol over God. I do believe the Holy Spirit IS God but a separate person.

It's like some people worship tongues or prophecy when really it should be about a LOVE relationship with God.

Our salvation is not dependant on the Gifts of the Spirit, although they are a great thing to have in our Christian walk, but it is dependant on our walk with God.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I mean come on... anyone can tell a sincere post asking about the Holy Spirit or anything about the Word of God... but I just don't get why they put the emphasis on the GIFTS instead of the stuff that really matters, like how to walk in the ways of God, or how to be prepared when a trial gets you from behind.

And for those of you who think, "Aww come on... you're just not having faith!" Let me tell you something... I may not have the faith I COULD have but I'm getting there. But I do have discernment and some things here just have to be seen from discernment... I mean doesn't anyone here think that some people are just wanting attention? Or just wanting to start a spark then leave before it's finished?

How can 1 person be two different people?

God is a three part being, as are we. We have a body, we have a soul, and we have a spirit. So does God. The body being Jesus, the soul being God, and the Spirit being the Holy Spirit. My spirit isn't a different thing from me. It's me, but in spirit. Not in the natural/physical.

It's like a 3 leaf clover. 3 leaves, but one plant.

Make sense..?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What bothers me the most is when people constantly talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is great... BUT I believe that you can make Him an idol over God. I do believe the Holy Spirit IS God but a separate person.

I do not understand how anyone can make the Holy Spirit an idol when He is God already. He is as much God as the Father and the Son. He is to be worshipped and glorified in the same way. He cannot be an idol, because when we worship Him, we are worshipping God and therefore not breaking the First Commandment at all.

 

[Hortysir]

subscribing....

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It's like some people worship tongues or prophecy when really it should be about a LOVE relationship with God.

In all my years of being associated with Pentecostals, I have never met anyone who has ever worshipped tongues or prophecy. You may have met some people who are in real error who should be corrected by their church leadership. Tongues and Prophecy are tools to be used for the furtherance of the Christian faith. For example, when I use my computer to further the kingdom of God, I don't worship it. I use it as a resource for good.

Our salvation is not dependant on the Gifts of the Spirit, although they are a great thing to have in our Christian walk, but it is dependant on our walk with God.

I would have thought that this was an elementary truth that all initiates are taught at the beginning of their Christian walk. Only a very small group of misguided people believe that the baptism of the Spirit and the gifts are essential for salvation.

But I would say that the baptism of the Spirit and the gifts are essential if you want to be effective in getting others saved through your work and ministry. You can't expect God's results in your ministry if you don't use God's resources and tools. Without the baptism of the Spirit, you will always be an ineffective pew sitter, like so many in the church who have spent their whole lives just warming a pew each Sunday because they are either too afraid or unbelieving to enter into the things of the Spirit.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I mean come on... anyone can tell a sincere post asking about the Holy Spirit or anything about the Word of God... but I just don't get why they put the emphasis on the GIFTS instead of the stuff that really matters, like how to walk in the ways of God, or how to be prepared when a trial gets you from behind.

So what you are saying is that you can refuse to use the tools and resources that God has given the church for Christians to be able to walk in the ways of God, and still be able to effectively walk in the ways of God? It's like going to school without your pen, ruler, text books, and workbooks and expect to do effective learning. Or it's like going to work and refusing to use the resources the management provides to do the job effectively. You wouldn't stay in that job for long, would you?

How do you think that people are able to walk in the ways of God? Do you think that God does it for you by some magical process without you making some effort at it? And how can you work at your Christian life without using the tools and resources that God has provided for you in the Spirit? Or are you going to be lazily sitting in a pew allowing others to do your Christian work for you?

And for those of you who think, "Aww come on... you're just not having faith!" Let me tell you something... I may not have the faith I COULD have but I'm getting there. But I do have discernment and some things here just have to be seen from discernment... I mean doesn't anyone here think that some people are just wanting attention? Or just wanting to start a spark then leave before it's finished?

So you are talking about using faith. That is a gift of the Spirit. You need that to maintain your Christian life. If you are talking about the need to use faith, then you are contradicting yourself if you say the gifts of the Spirit are not important, because you are saying that at least ONE gift is important to you.

You are talking about discernment. I would call it wisdom from God. This is another gift of the Spirit - the Word of Wisdom. You cannot have that discernment you talk about if the gift of the Word of Wisdom is not operating in you.

So, on the one hand you are saying the gifts are not important, and on the other hand you are saying that the gifts of faith and word of wisdom are important to you.

I think that you need to get your eyes off what other people are saying and doing, and get your eyes on Christ and allow Him to lead you in what He has for you. You will be much more positive and fruitful in your Christian life and ministry if you started looking in the right places and to the right Person.

I enjoy using the gifts of the Spirit, and I promote them as much as possible to anyone who will listen. This is because I love the Giver of the gifts and want to honour and glorify Him in whatever way I can.

 

[BillynJennifer]

We as Pentecostal/Charismatics can very easily fall into the trap of worshipping or placing too much emphasis on the gift rather than the gift giver. When we allow ourselves to come to that place, we start treating the Gifts as parlor tricks. I agree with TheChristEffect, as I have noticed a change in many charismatic circles where the Gifts of the Spirit are placed in high esteem, but love is left out of their doctrine.

BillynJennifer

 

[Hisgirl]

What bothers me the most is when people constantly talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit
I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I mean come on... anyone can tell a sincere post asking about the Holy Spirit or anything about the Word of God... but I just don't get why they put the emphasis on the GIFTS instead of the stuff that really matters, like how to walk in the ways of God, or how to be prepared when a trial gets you from behind.

In regards to what you see on this forum...you may be seeing more posts asking about the the gifts because... of all the gazillion forums in the Christian Forum...THIS forum is where you can freely discuss the gifts amongst Christians who practice the gifts.

So it's only natural to see threads about tongues and prophecy.

Most of the folks I know here walk their walk with the Lord in love and as a sincere witness to His grace and mercy. They don't spend their time, in real life apart from the computer, TALKING about the gifts...they spend their time USING the gifts to minister to God's sheep...which is the intention of the gifts.

I'm sure you have a wonderful heart for the Lord..and are gifted to minister. I look forward to hearing how you share His love, mercy and grace with those He places in your path. Thank you for sharing your heart and may God abundantly bless you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We as Pentecostal/Charismatics can very easily fall into the trap of worshipping or placing too much emphasis on the gift rather than the gift giver. When we allow ourselves to come to that place, we start treating the Gifts as parlor tricks. I agree with TheChristEffect, as I have noticed a change in many charismatic circles where the Gifts of the Spirit are placed in high esteem, but love is left out of their doctrine.

BillynJennifer

I agree, and I think that this is what TheChristEffect is getting at as well.

Paul said in 1Corinthians13 that even if we do all these things supposedly in the Spirit,and have not love, we become a useless noise (my paraphrase).

I would say that if people do not work in love, then they are actually not using the gifts of the Spirit at all. They are not in the Spirit. The spirit works through us through love. Therefore anyone who says they are using the gifts of the Spirit and are not motivated by the love of Christ is not actually using them at all. They are operating in their own human agency and the Holy Spirit is not using them at all.

This is why we have an instruction to test every spirit. It is not just for discerning evil spirits in a person, but also to see whether the person is ministering to us in the Holy Spirit or not. Because working in the human spirit and the Holy Spirit can be very similar, it takes a supernatural discernment sometimes to pick which is which. Usually the basis of evaluation is whether the person is operating in the Love of Christ.

Charles Finney wrote a very good book on The Attributes of Love, which set out the characteristics of the love of Christ very clearly. The same material can be found in Finney's Systematic Theology. Of course, there are other good authors who have written on the same theme and they would be easy to find in your local Christian bookshop.

Or you could study 1Corinthians13 which clearly sets out the characteristics of love as well. A person ministering in the Spirit needs to have these characteristics operating in order to have divine credibility.

So there is a very good reason why 1Corinthians13 is placed directly between chapters 12 and 14, because it is the foundation of all ministry in the Spirit.

 

[janny108]

I do not understand how anyone can make the Holy Spirit an idol when He is God already. He is as much God as the Father and the Son. He is to be worshipped and glorified in the same way. He cannot be an idol, because when we worship Him, we are worshipping God and therefore not breaking the First Commandment at all.

I think what this poster means is to magnify the Holy Spirit's FUNCTION MORE than Jesus or God almighty's functions. Some people are always chasing after a "sign". Even in the gospels Jesus talked about an adulterous generation that sought after signs.

Now don't get me wrong! I've been Pentecostal a long time, and now I'm reformed Presbyterian, partly because of the emphasis/arguments on these things. I have seen and experienced signs and wonders! I was very happy to experience it when it happened! But that should not be the mainfocus of my worship..


Jan

 

[janny108]

We as Pentecostal/Charismatics can very easily fall into the trap of worshipping or placing too much emphasis on the gift rather than the gift giver. When we allow ourselves to come to that place, we start treating the Gifts as parlor tricks. I agree with TheChristEffect, as I have noticed a change in many charismatic circles where the Gifts of the Spirit are placed in high esteem, but love is left out of their doctrine.

BillynJennifer

Thanks for saying that. I have experienced this also, unfortunately.

Jan

 

[BillynJennifer]

Oscarr, I never paid any attention to 1 Corinthians 13 being between 12 and 14, other than chronologically of course. Love really is the inner workings of the Spirit's ministry.

BillynJennifer

 

[TheChristEffect]

Few people get what is being said but that's better than people bashing one another... *phew*

But my point... too much emphasis is being placed on the Gifts... I do agree Oscarr that the gifts are a great help to the ministry of Christ but our problem is... that's not all there is...

Which is why your post on 1 Corinthians 13 is so important...

You can come upon a tongue speaker who doesn't have love or gentleness... You can walk past a preacher who doesn't have meekness...

My point is... there's a bigger deal of the issues that matter when most eyes are fogged against that we as Christians really should address and discuss.

One of the few topics that most people never see here is about the Love of God. Or even Spiritual Growth (not on the gifts but on learning to walk steadily and receiving knowledge from the Spirit.)

However I do know there are many that come here asking about it...

But my problem?

That's how it's portrayed what us Pentecostals/Charismatics are all about!!! What happened to our first love? What happened to the times when we were all about Love and the Overflowing Grace of God?

See? That's my point? I'm not stabbing you with pins in the back of your head with these words and if that's the way it feels, I'm sorry you feel that way... but we're NOT all about the Holy Spirit... we're about more than that...

Call me an outraged Pentecostal... but I am tired of people acting scared of us Charismatics just because of how we are being portrayed.

 

[NacDan]

How can 1 person be two different people?

God is a three part being, as are we. We have a body, we have a soul, and we have a spirit. So does God. The body being Jesus, the soul being God, and the Spirit being the Holy Spirit. My spirit isn't a different thing from me. It's me, but in spirit. Not in the natural/physical.

It's like a 3 leaf clover. 3 leaves, but one plant.

Make sense..?

I'll be surprised if this message doesn't derail the thread into a Trinity debate. The Trinitarian stand point is that the Godhead is comprised of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not 1 person with three attributes.

Danny

 

[TheChristEffect]

On regards to the Trinity view...

God is existent in 3 persons, yet they are all in unity.

The best way to think of it is this... God exists in 3 persons... the Father, the Son (Christ), and the Holy Spirit. All 3 of them work in unity and as One (meaning they all agree upon the same things, they all work towards the same thing, and they are all in conjunction with one another) YET they all have different things to do... for example... God is the judge and Father who cannot see sin... Christ paid the price for a sinner and goes to God after the Holy Spirit convicts the person to come to Christ and Christ pleads on their behalf and God the Father forgives and forgets and sees us as His children because of the intercession of the Holy Spirit to Christ, then Christ to God on our behalf.

 

[Alpine]

What bothers me the most is when people constantly talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.... The Holy Spirit is great... BUT I believe that you can make Him an idol over God. I do believe the Holy Spirit IS God but a separate person.

I have a real problem with your wording there. Since the Holy Spirit is God, you can't exactly make an idol of Him since He actually is God.

I think what you're trying to say is some people make an idol out of the gifts of the spirit, and I can understand that viewpoint.

Though couldn't I reverse what you're saying and say many more people idolize cessation of the gifts?

 

[TheChristEffect]

Well yea you probably could... but my wording was a bit off and I apologize...

But that's what I meant.. some make the gifts their idol and not God Himself.