Something higher than God wants to save everyone...

cygnusx1 said:

you might like to read this thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t730710-the-influences-of-the-reformation-on-bach.html

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I have had discussions with Hal in the Classical Music forum on this site. Its really hard to say I have read authors claiming Bach was anything from a pietist to a closet Catholic to an Enlightenment Rationalist. I just tend to assume he was an orthodox Lutheran.

tigersnare said:

Quite simply, God is the author and perfected of our Salvation. On the other hand, God is not the author of our sin which damns us to eternal hell.

In other words, we all sucessfully have damned ourselves to hell, but no one has sucessfully saved himself, so all the Glory goes to God for our salvation, and all the fault goes to us should be find ourselves in damnation.

Not a paradox at all really....

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How did I sucessfully damn myself to hell?

Did I ever have the ability not to sin?

If I did not have the ability to not sin, then I am not responsible for for my eternal fate in the hot house.

If I did have the ability not to sin, then this is a denial of the extent of original sin.

Also, if the entire human race is headed for hell, and God decided to save some, then all the glory for saving those folks goes to God, yes - but all the blame for not saving the rest also goes to God.

It's all a matter of perspective really.

On the other hand, God is not the author of our sin which damns us to eternal hell.
Yes He is. That's what Rom 9:18-21 is all about.
What is this Theology of yours?
You don't understand Romans 9.

john14_20 said:

How did I sucessfully damn myself to hell?

Did I ever have the ability not to sin?

If I did not have the ability to not sin, then I am not responsible for for my eternal fate in the hot house.

If I did have the ability not to sin, then this is a denial of the extent of original sin.

Also, if the entire human race is headed for hell, and God decided to save some, then all the glory for saving those folks goes to God, yes - but all the blame for not saving the rest also goes to God.

It's all a matter of perspective really.

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Hopefully you are aruging just for the sake of arguing, If not, you go ahead and blame God for the souls in hell. I'll stick with Paul, "Who are you O man to answer back to God?".

I am curious to where you both have found this doctrine. It is not Reformed from what I can tell. Is it even Arminian?

go ahead and blame God for the souls in hell. I'll stick with Paul, "Who are you O man to answer back to God?".
Hopefully you'll also agree with Paul the very next verse.

tigersnare said:

Hopefully you are aruging just for the sake of arguing, If not, you go ahead and blame God for the souls in hell. I'll stick with Paul, "Who are you O man to answer back to God?".

I am curious to where you both have found this doctrine. It is not Reformed from what I can tell. Is it even Arminian?

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Hi Tiger

Can you please answer my question?

Thanks and blessings, Pete

john14_20 said:

Hi Tiger

Can you please answer my question?

Thanks and blessings, Pete

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No I can't, busy studying for a test. Though I'm sure many people who are much brighter than me have answered this question before.

I think someone has already quoted John Edwards reply to this, read that if you want, he was a pretty smart guy.

Colossians said:

go ahead and blame God for the souls in hell. I'll stick with Paul, "Who are you O man to answer back to God?".
Hopefully you'll also agree with Paul the very next verse.

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I do agree with Paul in the next verse. But how God does that, I'm not sure enough to defend a position. I will have to do some reading and some studying, but right now my school work takes precedence, maybe tomorrow after my test I can start learning more about God and man's sin.

Thanks for the food for thought.

john14_20 said:

Hi Tiger

Can you please answer my question?

Thanks and blessings, Pete

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At the risk of sounding Orthodox . . .

When were you capable of not sinning? Spiritually speaking you did first sin and acquire guilt when did first sin. You and I each sinned within our first federal head – Adam. The free will of man did live in its purest form in that first man. He did relinquish it willingly as he succumbed to the entreaty of the first woman. He willed to disobey God placing himself and his progeny under the bondage of sin and death.

Consider Romans 5:12, 15, 17, and 18.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned . . .

15 . . . For if through the offence of one [Adam] many be dead . . .

17 . . . for the judgment was my one to condemnation . . .

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation . . .

The clear teaching of Scripture is that we are held accountable for the transgression of Adam. But does that relate to your question? I believe it does. Consider Hebrews 7:9-10

Heb 7:9-10, And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes to Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him [making reference to the account given in Gen 14:20].

All humanity is under the bondage of sin and death because of the transgression of Adam in which we participated. In Adam, you had the opportunity to reject sin. In Adam you and I did participate in sin.

As you rightly pointed out . . . "It is all a matter of perspective really."

Biblical perspective . . . or some other perspective.

msortwell

msortwell said:

All humanity is under the bondage of sin and death because of the transgression of Adam in which we participated. In Adam, you had the opportunity to reject sin. In Adam you and I did participate in sin.

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Never saw it this way...intresting.

msortwell said:

At the risk of sounding Orthodox . . .

When were you capable of not sinning? Spiritually speaking you did first sin and acquire guilt when did first sin. You and I each sinned within our first federal head – Adam. The free will of man did live in its purest form in that first man. He did relinquish it willingly as he succumbed to the entreaty of the first woman. He willed to disobey God placing himself and his progeny under the bondage of sin and death.

Consider Romans 5:12, 15, 17, and 18.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned . . .

15 . . . For if through the offence of one [Adam] many be dead . . .

17 . . . for the judgment was my one to condemnation . . .

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation . . .

The clear teaching of Scripture is that we are held accountable for the transgression of Adam. But does that relate to your question? I believe it does. Consider Hebrews 7:9-10

Heb 7:9-10, And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes to Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him [making reference to the account given in Gen 14:20].

All humanity is under the bondage of sin and death because of the transgression of Adam in which we participated. In Adam, you had the opportunity to reject sin. In Adam you and I did participate in sin.

As you rightly pointed out . . . "It is all a matter of perspective really."

Biblical perspective . . . or some other perspective.

msortwell

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Greetings msortwell

Many thanks for your reply.

I do have a question though.

On the one hand you say that we were born into sin due to Adam. I agree with you. But that does lend itself to the argument that we cannot not sin.

On the other hand, you say that I had the opportunity to reject sin in Adam but didn't. How is that so?

I was not there!

Blessings, Pete

If I understand your first observation correctly I would agree with you. Prior to our new birth and justification through trusting in Christ an individual is sure to sin. Actually 1John tells that if we (the redeemed) claim to have no sin, we are liars. There is this "body of death" my old carnal nature, that has been part of me since before I was saved, and remains all too much a part of me today (Rom 7). A major difference between the redeemed and the lost is that we have the indwelling Spirit that works within us "both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13)." We now have an inclination, and unction, toward good.

When I was lost I did most willfully choose to do evil . . . including the rejection of God's Christ. Now that I am saved I still too often willfully choose to do evil. Before and after redemption my sin merited damnation. Now having faith in Christ, what I merit I will not recieve . . . because of mercy.

Were you not present in Adam? Did you not act in Adam? Hebrews 7:9 tells us that Levi paid tithes in Abraham (typo in my previous said "to" Abraham). He acted in his forefather . . . according to God's Word. I believe the reasonable interpretation of this verse (particularly in light of the principles taught regarding our guilt in Adam) is that we SPIRITUALLY act in our forefathers.

This takes on particular significance when we consider the substitutionary atonement made by Christ.

If we reject our participation in the sin of our first federal head - the first Adam, on what grounds do we claim forgiveness based upon the price paid by the second Adam which is Christ?

I understand that we need only accept the truth of the gospel as a child, and need not ponder the deeper things for forgiveness. However, God's system is seamless. It all makes sense (that which is within our ability to reason).

You needn't embrace that you were there participating in the sin of Adam to accept that you are guilty of original sin. But stripped away from the Biblical evidence provided in Romans 5 and Hebrews 7 it can begin to sound like "church speak" when in fact it is simply the testimony of the Scriptures. The doctrine of the fall is a dark reflection of the doctrine of salvation. The degree to which our understanding of the fall is flawed or incomplete is often largely consistent with a flawed or incomplete view of the atonement.

Blessings,

msortwell

msortwell said:

If I understand your first observation correctly I would agree with you. Prior to our new birth and justification through trusting in Christ an individual is sure to sin. Actually 1John tells that if we (the redeemed) claim to have no sin, we are liars. There is this "body of death" my old carnal nature, that has been part of me since before I was saved, and remains all too much a part of me today (Rom 7).


If we reject our participation in the sin of our first federal head - the first Adam, on what grounds do we claim forgiveness based upon the price paid by the second Adam which is Christ?



You needn't embrace that you were there participating in the sin of Adam to accept that you are guilty of original sin.

Blessings,

msortwell

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Thanks again for your reply

Ah, but every answer brings a new question!

If I am guilty of original sin in Adam regardless of my belief, why must I believe in Christ before I participate in His forgiveness?

Blessings, Pete

john14_20 said:

Thanks again for your reply

Ah, but every answer brings a new question!

If I am guilty of original sin in Adam regardless of my belief, why must I believe in Christ before I participate in His forgiveness?

Blessings, Pete

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For Christ is our federal head only by faith in Him through grace. Unless we meet God's criteria for a right standing with Him.

Blessings,

msortwell

john14_20 said:

How did I sucessfully damn myself to hell?

Did I ever have the ability not to sin?

If I did not have the ability to not sin, then I am not responsible for for my eternal fate in the hot house.

If I did have the ability not to sin, then this is a denial of the extent of original sin.

Also, if the entire human race is headed for hell, and God decided to save some, then all the glory for saving those folks goes to God, yes - but all the blame for not saving the rest also goes to God.

It's all a matter of perspective really.

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Ok my test is over I did alittle studying.

In Adam we all sinned, Adam was the Federal Head for all mankind. In Adam we had the ability to not sin. But, In Adam, we did sin. We now have sucessfully damned ourselves to hell.

Who's to blame? Ourselves, not only Adam, because he represented all of mankind. If we dont' accept Adam as our Federal Head then we don't accept God's plan for salvation in Christ either.

If we reject Federal Heads, we reject imputed righteouness through faith in Christ. If we reject Federal Heads, we reject God's authority, will, and sovereinghty.

Edit:Whoops, seems this has already been taken care of by my Reformed Brethern, oh well, if you have more questions I look forward to answering them. It's always good to tighten up my theology.

msortwell said:

For Christ is our federal head only by faith in Him through grace. Unless we meet God's criteria for a right standing with Him.

Blessings,

msortwell

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Ok, that's fair.

But does it not worry you that Adam is our federal head no matter what, but Christ is only our federal head when we elect Him?

Blessings to all, Pete

tigersnare said:

Ok my test is over I did alittle studying.

In Adam we all sinned, Adam was the Federal Head for all mankind. In Adam we had the ability to not sin. But, In Adam, we did sin. We now have sucessfully damned ourselves to hell.

Who's to blame? Ourselves, not only Adam, because he represented all of mankind. If we dont' accept Adam as our Federal Head then we don't accept God's plan for salvation in Christ either.

If we reject Federal Heads, we reject imputed righteouness through faith in Christ. If we reject Federal Heads, we reject God's authority, will, and sovereinghty.

Edit:Whoops, seems this has already been taken care of by my Reformed Brethern, oh well, if you have more questions I look forward to answering them. It's always good to tighten up my theology.

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Hi

I don't want to reject federal headship.

I just want them to be equal.

The way federal headship is being described, Adam is far better at his job than Christ!

Blessings, Pete

john14_20 said:

Hi

I don't want to reject federal headship.

I just want them to be equal.

The way federal headship is being described, Adam is far better at his job than Christ!

Blessings, Pete

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It was not Adam's "job" do impute sin to us. It is not Christ "job" to impute righteouness to us.

Unfortuanly it does not matter what you want, it is God's plan.

john14_20 said:

Ok, that's fair.

But does it not worry you that Adam is our federal head no matter what, but Christ is only our federal head when we elect Him?

Blessings to all, Pete

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No, God is God, man is man, who are we do question God's eternal decrees?

Christ is our federal head if we are the elect, not if we elect him. Basically we are in Adam, or we are in Christ.

In Adam we had the ability to not sin.
No we didn't. That's why we sinned.