Some standing here who will not taste of death

[Gundy22]

This topic creeped its way into the thread about dating John on isle of Patmos. I am going to paste in some of those comments later.

In Matthew, the Transfiguration is SIX days after Jesus statement - in Luke it is EIGHT days after the statement.

I will get the scripture references shortly.

 

[Gundy22]

Some standing here who will not taste of death

Some standing here shall not taste death - Mt 16(27-28).


"Several people reading this passage have assumed that Jesus was promising that some of those hearing His words at that time would still be alive to see Him coming back to inaugurate His kingdom on earth. It is quite possible that the disciples themselves thought that they would be able to witness Jesus’ return. But the disciples have died, and Jesus did not come back yet. Therefore this passage must be understood differently.



Perhaps v. 28 deals with the appearance of the kingdom, and not with Jesus’ second coming. If we look for an event within the lifetime of at least some who were present which could correspond to the coming of the kingdom, the following options have been suggested:



(1) Since in all three synoptic gospels this statement is followed by the transfiguration of Jesus, it has been argued that this is what was intended. But an event that was to happen in only six days is hardly compatible with the statement that some would live to see it.



(2) Others take this to refer to the resurrection or to Pentecost. Again the time interval (probably less than a year) seems too short to warrant the phrasing ‘some standing here who will not taste death.’



(3) Still others interpret this verse as referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The problem is that the context does not encourage this interpretation. The preceding verse, v. 27, clearly refers to Jesus’ final coming for judgment. The transition from Jesus’ second coming to the fall of Jerusalem seems too sudden.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

This topic creeped its way into the thread about dating John on isle of Patmos. I am going to paste in some of those comments later.

In Matthew, the Transfiguration is SIX days after Jesus statement - in Luke it is EIGHT days after the statement.

I will get the scripture references shortly.

Luke says "About eight days after Jesus said this..."
ὡσεὶ ἡμέραι ὀκτὼ
Osei hmerai okto
About days eight

 

[Gundy22]

Mat 16:28

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luk 9:27

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Even can be found in Mark 9:1.

 

[Gundy22]

Mar 9:1

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mar 9:2

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Okay - Mark and Matthew say six days - Luke says eight

 

[DavidPT]

The first thing to do is look for timing clues in the text.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.


Timing clue---For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Timing clue---For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.


Obviously, these timing clue events are pertaining to His 2nd coming. But His 2nd coming is yet to happen, and some standing there at the time have already tasted of death since they are presently dead and have been for at least 2000 years. Yet, look what the text actually says, though---there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.



When does the kingdom of God come with power? If we look at one of the timing clues---For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels---then compare that with similar Scripture, it seems to be meaning when this timing clue is meaning.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It says it right in this very verse---they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. It doesn't mention angels, yet we know from other Scriptures angels will be accompanying Him at the time. Scripture such as the following.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Interestingly enough, this is when some standing there at the time will taste of death once they are gathered from all nations, then separated, then end up on the left instead of the right. They taste of death, meaning the 2nd death, because they are cast out of the kingdom rather than welcomed into it instead. You're still probably wondering how they end up at the sheep and goats judgment to begin with if they are already dead by that time? Ever hear of being resurrected?

The fact I'm Premil, some of this does seem to contradict that position if I am correct about any of these things. That's something I still need to try and iron out if possible. If not, maybe it simply proves Premil is not the correct position after all, and that maybe I just need to admit it eventually?

 

[JulieB67]

I think it means that Christ defeated death and by doing so assumed the Kingdom at that point. All standing there but Judas would see him with power in his glorified body.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The fact I'm Premil, some of this does seem to contradict that position if I am correct about any of these things. That's something I still need to try and iron out if possible. If not, maybe it simply proves Premil is not the correct position after all, and that maybe I just need to admit it eventually?

Actually, the premil, preterist, and even some amill aren't correct position after all.

The transfiguration was a picture, a [skia], a snapshot of His coming glory, intended to "show" the disciples (and indeed all of us) the truth of the coming of the Son of man in His Kingdom with power, when He ascends to the Glory He had with His Father before the world began.

For me, there is no doubt that according to the Holy Bible, the Son of man coming in the Kingdom of God with power came only after Christ went to the cross establishing it, ascended to the throne of that same Kingdom, and sent His Spirit to the subjects of that kingdom with power, that they might live and reign in it on earth. All of this already took place BEFORE 70AD! The cross, Christ ascended to the throne, and Christians were empowered with Holy Spirit was indeed the start of the millennial reign. Not 70AD. And at the consummation in the near future, when Christ returns, we, of this kingdom that God established on earth, will be delivered up to the father in heaven. There won't be a literal physical 1,000 years kingdom on Earth in the future as premil believes nor this has to do anything with 70AD.

So in short, if one and one equals two, it cannot equal four. For example, since the Kingdom of God came only once in the past, that there were some disciples that stood there that didn't taste of death till they saw that kingdom of God come with power, then they were at Pentecost when the Kingdom of God came with power. When the Son of man came with dunamis. Came demonstrating the miraculous strength of the power or dunamis of Himself, the salvation of the whole world.

What a glorious manifestation of Christ, and His glorious kingdom we do now live and reign in because of it.

 

[DavidPT]

I think it means that Christ defeated death and by doing so assumed the Kingdom at that point. All standing there but Judas would see him with power in his glorified body.

Why make mention in the context, things pertaining to His 2nd coming, if none of this involves any of that? His transfiguration certainly didn't involve His 2nd coming. Unless one is in the OSAS camp, thus denies that one can lose their professed salvation in the end, it might mean professed followers of Christ can lose their salvation in the end, thus NOSAS. As for me, I'm in the NOSAS camp, so I already believe one can lose their professed salvation in the end.

You do realize that there were more standing there at the time, besides His regular 11 or 12 disciples, right?

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

 

[DavidPT]

Actually, the premil, preterist, and even some amill aren't correct position after all.

The transfiguration was a picture, a [skia], a snapshot of His coming glory, intended to "show" the disciples (and indeed all of us) the truth of the coming of the Son of man in His Kingdom with power, when He ascends to the Glory He had with His Father before the world began.

For me, there is no doubt that according to the Holy Bible, the Son of man coming in the Kingdom of God with power came only after Christ went to the cross establishing it, ascended to the throne of that same Kingdom, and sent His Spirit to the subjects of that kingdom with power, that they might live and reign in it on earth. All of this already took place BEFORE 70AD! The cross, Christ ascended to the throne, and Christians were empowered with Holy Spirit was indeed the start of the millennial reign. Not 70AD. And at the consummation in the near future, when Christ returns, we, of this kingdom that God established on earth, will be delivered up to the father in heaven. There won't be a literal physical 1,000 years kingdom on Earth in the future as premil believes nor this has to do anything with 70AD.

So in short, if one and one equals two, it cannot equal four. For example, since the Kingdom of God came only once in the past, that there were some disciples that stood there that didn't taste of death till they saw that kingdom of God come with power, then they were at Pentecost when the Kingdom of God came with power. When the Son of man came with dunamis. Came demonstrating the miraculous strength of the power or dunamis of Himself, the salvation of the whole world.

What a glorious manifestation of Christ, and His glorious kingdom we do now live and reign in because of it.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked someone else in my last post. Why make mention in the context, things pertaining to His 2nd coming, if none of this involves any of that?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I can agree with David that this might refer to the transfiguration of the Lord, in which more than one Apostle witnessed it. Also John had a vision on Patmos of the Lord in heaven post-resurrection as did Paul on the road to Damascus, and so did Stephen as he was being stoned to death.

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


Another clue is this---which shall not taste of death. How should that be applied, and who should it be applied to?

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.


Notice in John 8:52 what the Jews indicated Jesus said---If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Did Jesus dispute that? Did He deny saying that? No. Wouldn't this make Jesus a liar if He is meaning disciples, such as John, Peter, James, etc, In the 3 accounts involving, some standing here, that will not taste of death till? Yet, Jesus said, according to the Jews at the time, if a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Does anyone think any of the 12 disciples other than Judas, failed to keep His sayings? That's the only way they could have tasted of death if Jesus indicated that it is only those that keep His saying, who shall never taste of death, thus anyone who doesn't keep His saying, shall taste of death, since there has to be an opposite, and that that is the opposite.


IMO, John 8:52 proves that to taste of death means the 2nd death, the fact all of the disciples already died, yet, they all kept His saying unto the end, not including Judas. It is only those that are raised to eternal life that shall never taste of the 2nd death. In the meantime everyone tastes of the first death, meaning physical death in this age prior to the next age. Yet, Jesus said, whoever keeps His saying, shall never taste of death. How can 'never' not really literally mean never?

 

[JulieB67]

Well, Judas is the only one by name that we know definitely died before then. More than the 11 saw him as well in his glorified body.

I'm in the NOSAS camp as well. I admit that the context of the verses before have to do with the 2nd coming, but since we know they are dead and the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet, we have to look for another meaning wouldn't you say.

I like to think of these 2 verses,

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;"

Hebrews 2:15 "And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

He defeated death before some of them standing there had died. And they were able to witness him as well in his glorfied body.

ETA the John 8:52 verse is talking about the second death, I would imagine.

 

[DavidPT]

ETA the John 8:52 verse is talking about the second death, I would imagine.

You imagined right, IMO.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I'll ask you the same thing I asked someone else in my last post. Why make mention in the context, things pertaining to His 2nd coming, if none of this involves any of that?

Sorry, DavidPT, the disputed verses have nothing to do with the Second Coming. It has to do with the establishment of Christ's Kingdom at the cross where his subjects did see the power of the kingdom coming at Pentecost.

 

[TribulationSigns]

IMO, John 8:52 proves that to taste of death means the 2nd death, the fact all of the disciples already died, yet, they all kept His saying unto the end, not including Judas. It is only those that are raised to eternal life that shall never taste of the 2nd death. In the meantime everyone tastes of the first death, meaning physical death in this age prior to the next age. Yet, Jesus said, whoever keeps His saying, shall never taste of death. How can 'never' not really literally mean never?

No, the taste of death has to do with their physical death. Some of the disciples have not tasted death until they FIRST see the power of the kingdom. They did see this and have received power at Pentecost before they died. Since Christ also speaking to the church through his disciple, we, Christians also witnessed the kingdom of God come with power when we were born again thus you have become part of God's kingdom.

Act 1:6-8
(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Of course, the disciples did not live long enough to see the Gospel has reached to the uttermost part of the earth, but they did receive the power of the kingdom to preach the gospel and it did place at Pentecost.

 

[DavidPT]

No, the taste of death has to do with their physical death. Some of the disciples have not tasted death until they FIRST see the power of the kingdom. They did see this and have received power at Pentecost before they died.

Act 1:6-8
(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Of course, the disciples did not live long enough to see the Gospel has reached to the uttermost part of the earth, but they did receive the power of the kingdom to preach the gospel and it did place at Pentecost.

Why is your understanding of that contradicting what the Jews claimed Jesus said---If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death?


You are instead saying that Jesus was wrong here, that even if you keep His saying, you will still taste of death, regardless. That's not what the text says, though. That is opposite of what the text says. What should I believe in this case? What you say which contradicts what the text says? Or what the text says which contradicts what you say?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I see many possibilities for the some shall not taste death before they see the glory of the Lord:

1) Paul in his vision on the road to Damacus, Steven at his stoning, John in his visions on Patmos
2) Those who witnessed the Lord after his resurrection (all the Apostles plus others)
3) Apostles who witnessed the transfiguration (though that being before the cross seems least likely)

I believe the Lord was referring to their physical death, not the second death. No believers will experience the second death, so that would apply to all of us, not "some"

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why is your understanding of that contradicting what the Jews claimed Jesus said---If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death?


You are instead saying that Jesus was wrong here, that even if you keep His saying, you will still taste of death, regardless. That's not what the text says, though. That is opposite of what the text says. What should I believe in this case? What you say which contradicts what the text says? Or what the text says which contradicts what you say?

You are talking in circles. The context of John 8:51-52 is different than the context of Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27 which deals with those "standing to see seeing the kingdom of God with power." Nothing to do with "man keeping my saying" that John 8 talks about. It seems that you are trying to justify "death" in all disputed verses with the second death to fit your doctrine.

Joh 8:48-59
(48) Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
(49) Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
(50) And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(52) Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
(53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
(54) Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
(55) Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
(56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
(57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Timtofly]

The first thing to do is look for timing clues in the text.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.


Timing clue---For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Timing clue---For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.


Obviously, these timing clue events are pertaining to His 2nd coming. But His 2nd coming is yet to happen, and some standing there at the time have already tasted of death since they are presently dead and have been for at least 2000 years. Yet, look what the text actually says, though---there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.



When does the kingdom of God come with power? If we look at one of the timing clues---For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels---then compare that with similar Scripture, it seems to be meaning when this timing clue is meaning.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It says it right in this very verse---they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. It doesn't mention angels, yet we know from other Scriptures angels will be accompanying Him at the time. Scripture such as the following.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Interestingly enough, this is when some standing there at the time will taste of death once they are gathered from all nations, then separated, then end up on the left instead of the right. They taste of death, meaning the 2nd death, because they are cast out of the kingdom rather than welcomed into it instead. You're still probably wondering how they end up at the sheep and goats judgment to begin with if they are already dead by that time? Ever hear of being resurrected?

The fact I'm Premil, some of this does seem to contradict that position if I am correct about any of these things. That's something I still need to try and iron out if possible. If not, maybe it simply proves Premil is not the correct position after all, and that maybe I just need to admit it eventually?

If the Second Coming brings the "kingdom", then the Second Coming cannot be post "kingdom". Or there cannot be any "kingdom" at all. Why claim the Coming "kingdom"?

You went from "seeing the kingdom". Christ Coming in power, two scriptural facts, to a third private interpretation the kingdom coming in power.

The kingdom was Paradise in the heavens. Jesus said many would no longer taste death period. There need be no other qualifiers. A second coming, a Kingdom Coming, nor any future event. The point was not tasting death. Instead of tasting death, one would see the kingdom. I agree that death is the second death. That is the point. Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life. Even though Lazarus tasted death and literally died, Lazarus was brought back to life and did see the kingdom as well. The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not see the Second Death, but saw the kingdom, Paradise that day. Jesus was not claiming all would be raptured and changed in mid air. But literally, physical death for the redeemed is just a doorway and not tasting death, in sheol.

Jesus was not making a longevity statement. Jesus was claiming many there would Accept Jesus as their Atonement.