Some questions

[PilgrimChild]

Hi again, this is my second attempt at asking these questions. I apologise for the mix-up with the previous thread.

Basically what I was wanting some info on were the following two things:

1) Where I can find some info on being quiverfull, and what it means? (Including whether there's any Biblical reasons behind the decision.)

2) Financial aspects. Do you guys all have fantastic jobs, and that's how you can afford so many children? Or is it a case of 'God will provide'? Or is it a mixture of welfare and working?

I'm sorry if that second question seems nosy. Of course, answer at your own discretion.

I am asking because I think about the possibilities of having a large family and wonder how others have found it possible to afford the expenses. We have one child so far, and understand the expenses involved with parenthood.

Hopefully this thread will generate some good discussion this time around.

 

[oliveplants]

Thanks for trying again.

Resources:
wikipedia (predjudiced entry, but some good info) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull

www.visionforum.com (they brought us into the idea; there are lots of tapes and books to buy, or follow the links to the articles and hot topics)


http://momof9splace.com/
Honestly, I'm not sure if she is quiverfull, but there are a lot of terrific articles.

http://www.aboverubies.org/frameset.asp?w=1440
a sort of online magazine

http://www.duggarfamily.com/
A popular QF family

http://www.christianforums.com/t3731859-what-does-quiverfull-mean-to-you.html
Some of our thought on the subject

Now, as to the other question,
DH is enlisted military and I keep home. I'm trying to think of a way to describe our income that would be relevant to someone outside of the U.S. We don't qualify for food stamps, but we could get WIC (for example of something that isn't relevant to you)... We aren't rich by any means, but we get by. We have to make decisions to help us get by. Like we decided to not go in debt for a vehicle, ever. We have two older model vehicles that we paid cash for, so no payments and cheaper insurance. We no longer charge things to a credit card (though we still have some CC debt from before the wisdom hit). But I think we live a good life; we still eat meat twice a day, and often at restraunts. I know if it came down to it, we could live off rice and beans, but it has not got that bad yet.

I do hope that when DH retires in a few years we will be able to have a home based business, and the children will be able to help out with that, thus generating income rather than just consuming. But until they are old enough to help out, it is expensive.

God is faithfull. Our income has grown some over the years, but not as fast as our family. Still, we live better now than in the past. When I look at what people got by on in the 30's, we could have 40 children and still be better off than most Americans were then (well, maybe not 40, but quite a bit). In general the houses are bigger and the incomes are higher than they were then, but people have fewer children and say it's for financial reasons.

That isn't to say it's not a real concern. I don't think homeless people with no job prospects should try to have triplets and hope they can scrounge better. You know? But average-income families can usualy afford a few more children without too much strain.

(Again, subject to lifestyle choices. If you think you have to provide a car at age 16, full-paid college at 18, a savings account, braces, designer shoes, a pony, etc, then it would be impossible. But I affirm that you can have a quality life without those things.)

Sorry if I over-qualify myself; hope you can get something out of what I said.

 

[RoseofLima]

My husband makes under $30,000 (American) a year... God does absolutely provide.

I completely second the idea of lifestyle adjustments! However, that absolutely doesn't mean that you just sit at home and do nothing! For us it means that we look for free and cheap stuff to do. We take advantage of free days at museums, visit state parks, go for picnics, and visit relatives as our vacations. We also homeschool and so we get to take advantage of serious discounts when we do things together with other homeschoolers- like going to the aquarium and the theater.

Things we don't have- new furniture, new rugs, meat every night for dinner, the latest and greatest technology (we get everyone's old computers and will never have a giganto TV), cell phones, cable or satellite TV, my kids each having their own room. We also won't have any unsecured debt in a few months!

We have learned that if we wait and are patient, eventually we will save enough for things we want or need- and often the time we spend waiting allows to examine if something is acually needed or worth having.

There are times when money is really, really tight. However- it is precisely in those times when God's grace abounds- I swear money just shows up! I occassionaly work at church and make a little extra that way. I am thinking about substitute teaching or tutoring next year to make some extra cash.

It also gets cheaper as you have more kids - you don't have to keep buying clothes and furniture and things like that. Obviously food costs increase, but a tank of gas isn't any more expensive if you have 1 or five kids.

I think being open to life is a reflection of the Trinitarian love which marriage is designed to mirror.

It has been an immense blessing for our little family as we strive to live joyfully!

 

[PilgrimChild]

Hi Rose and Olive

Thanks so much for your lengthy answers. I find this is so fascinating, and welcome any further insight you and others have on this topic.

I think the thing that's concerning me about this is that my husband has some health issues, and I'm going to be the breadwinner in this family - this is what my studies have been gearing towards. I graduated last year, and am awaiting confirmation of a full-time job.

I so much want to have more kids and stay home, but these are sacrifices I make for the family I have at the moment. Having another child or three doesn't seem possible at the moment... maybe ever.

 

[PilgrimChild]

PS: Am in the process of checking out some of those links, Olive. Thanks!

 

[oliveplants]

Hi Rose and Olive

Thanks so much for your lengthy answers. I find this is so fascinating, and welcome any further insight you and others have on this topic.

I think the thing that's concerning me about this is that my husband has some health issues, and I'm going to be the breadwinner in this family - this is what my studies have been gearing towards. I graduated last year, and am awaiting confirmation of a full-time job.

I so much want to have more kids and stay home, but these are sacrifices I make for the family I have at the moment. Having another child or three doesn't seem possible at the moment... maybe ever.

And that's why I try to not be militant about QF or even SAHM.



I believe that when you are faithfull to do your best with what you have, God will enable you to do more. It may be a year or two, but maybe your DH will improve, or you will find work-from-home, or who knows? I'm not going to tell you to have more babies for fun and then not be able to care for them, you know? You have to be honest about your situation, and be willing to change your ideas when the situation changes. (or if you have a strong conviction to do things a certian way, then think outside the box and see if you can make a change in your situation.)

Sorry if this sounds preachy, I'm just trying to talk through the idea...

 

[ksdedee74]

1) Where I can find some info on being quiverfull, and what it means? I just wanted to give you some a couple verses. There are many verse that say children are a blessing or inhertiance. Quiverfull comes from Psalms 127:5 But read all of Pslams 127:3-5 & then Psalms 112:12.

2) Financial aspects. Do you guys all have fantastic jobs, and that's how you can afford so many children? Or is it a case of 'God will provide'? Or is it a mixture of welfare and working? I truely belive God will provide when we are faithful I have seen it in my own life but it is stated in Psalms 37:25 that we will not forsake the rightous. As for a fantastic job, no we live in central KS in a rural communitty and my dh works for the school district. I am mostly a SAHM but I believe that I should help our family as the Prov. 31 woman so I do odd jobs, and such to suplument our income. We would qualify for welfare, but we are not on it. I do pick up commonities, WIC & my children qualify for free school lunches, because I don't think it wrong to accept this. We do work hard and are not ashamed that we are not rich. The reason we are not on wlefare is that I believe there are people out there that need that more than us.

I am a strong believe in what happens to lazy men(people) and I believe the don't work don't eat. So we have a large garden that the whole family helps with.We do eat meat every meal. I know you assume it is because we live in a farming area but we are not farmers, we buy it at the market like everyone else. We do cut out things that aren't neccasary. We do not have a huge house or a new car. We don't want a new car a huge house might be nice sometimes. WE do own older vehicles. We buy older because my dh can work on them, we like them, and if one breaks down we have a cheap sub ready and we can pay for them at one time andnot become a slave to the debt.

My children are not lacking, they have plenty of toys, new clothes( I do not sew well), and just stuff. More than I had at thier age, but not near what thier friends have. Dh & I have learned to fix things ourselves. I know how to rewire a house he knows how to replumb one. We have learned over time how to fix about anything. & We found when we were open to learning it became intresting and nice to know what we could accoplish. We are considering building an addition on to our house but are waiting till we have saved enough to have some pro's come in and do the foundation(you how important a strong foundation is)

Basically to sum it up we have learned and adjusted and did the best with what God gave us, why because our children are the most important thing to us 2nd only to God and we want them to grow up being a close family that can count on each other. I believe this happens by cutting out the extras (activites and things) that they don't need and that take them from us. Building a relationship with them, that shows people not things are important is important.

 

[ksdedee74]

Hi Rose and Olive

Thanks so much for your lengthy answers. I find this is so fascinating, and welcome any further insight you and others have on this topic.

I think the thing that's concerning me about this is that my husband has some health issues, and I'm going to be the breadwinner in this family - this is what my studies have been gearing towards. I graduated last year, and am awaiting confirmation of a full-time job.

I so much want to have more kids and stay home, but these are sacrifices I make for the family I have at the moment. Having another child or three doesn't seem possible at the moment... maybe ever.

Sorry I just wanted to add an answer to this one; agian Psalms 37:25, Matt 19:26, Mark 9:23

Also Eph 2:9 is talking about being saved but I believe it also could be apllied to situations like this where we can't do it by our own works, it has to be from God so we know how much we need him and don't think we did it ourselves.

 

[jgonz]

2) Financial aspects. Do you guys all have fantastic jobs, and that's how you can afford so many children? Or is it a case of 'God will provide'? Or is it a mixture of welfare and working?

DH is an IT person for a local internet company, and also does side work for other local companies (programming mostly). We have never gotten Welfare, used food stamps, or WIC (although I'm sure we qualify, we don't feel the need).

I'm a SAHM, and we homeschool. My kids are nicely dressed, and so am I. We eat about 1/2 organic, 1/2 conventional. I am also passionate about herbs, so we use herbal remedies vs going to the doctor. That saves a Huge amount of money. I have 3 kids who've been through braces, 1 in braces right now, and 1 who probably will be starting braces in the spring. We don't skimp on important things, but compared to some families, our priorities are Vastly different.

I can honestly say that we are better off financially now, with 8 kids at home, than we were with only 2. G-d definately provides... He stretches... He is amazing.

 

[PilgrimChild]

I really appreciate everyone's input here, and the Bible verses and financial ideas. I'm going to write those Bible references down and look them up later.

Hubby and I are on welfare now, while I'm job-hunting. I hate being on welfare, for so many reasons - the first of which is that the gov't always seems to screw things up which in turns screws us up.

I think the main thing stopping us (besides finances) from having more children is DH's health. While he's not sick at the moment, there is a chance it could come back. It's not something you're ever cured from 100%, and he worries that him overdoing it will trigger another case of it.

Just as an aside, I find it interesting how many of you refer to meat when discussing finances. Must be super-expensive over there, right? Meat isn't really an issue with our family, as DH is vegetarian and DD and I only have meat probably once or twice a fortnight, if that. I don't even know how expensive meat is over here, as DH does the shopping. Whenever we buy meat, I usually turn it into stew or some sort of topping over pasta for DD and I. A little meat goes a long way in this household.

Regarding children's toys, my daughter (two next week) plays most with the cheapest things. Her grandparents brought her a couple of huge boxes over that they turned into a two-roomed cubby/play house for her. I also have coloured paper, feathers, a scrap book and some glue that DD loves to make collages out of. These things are so inexpensive and she loves these activities. Books, are another huge thing, and we and extended family keep an eye out for secondhand books in good condition. My MIL will often come with 20 books at a time - most recently it was an entire box of books! (Can never have too many, we say.)

The one expensive thing DD does have, brand-new, is her own 1/4-sized guitar. We bought it for her birthday, and she loves it to bits. She was always trying to play with mine, which is in a delicate condition, so we bought one for her that is more sturdy. She plays with it multiple times a day. Future guitarist here!

 

[PilgrimChild]

Deleted this post - I've decided it should be a PM instead. Sorry.

 

[oliveplants]

regarding meat, it is one of the pricier grocery items. A pound of ground beef (mince, I think y'all call it) is about $2, where a pound of beans is $0.50. It's just an example of how "frugal" one is, I suppose, as to whether or not they eat meat.
Another example is buying clothes at a thrift store rather than the mall. We look decent when we go out, we just don't spend $150 per outfit.

if that helps...

 

[teishpriest]

I'm still new to QF, but God brought my DH and I to it at the same time. He was dealing with us individually on this particular topic. There isn't a particular verse I can point to so much as the theme of children being a blessing, and seeing how much God values children throughout the Bible. I couldn't believe the anti-child attitudes that were in the world, and have even shown up in the Church to a degree. I guess QF was just a continuation of the path we were on already.

My DH is self-employed, and there is no way we would survive without God providing! We both believe that welfare should be provided by the Church, not the government, so we have chosen not to participate, even though we would qualify. We do without a lot of things, but nothing that we need. Not having any debt is HUGE! There are many ways you can save money, it's just a matter of finding what you can do. I do a lot of sewing and such for gifts, so that is one way we save a lot of money. I've also found some great recipes for making my own mixes instead of buying convenience food.

The amount of stuff you need for a baby decreases greatly after the first child, as you have pretty much all of your baby gear already. A car seat and place to sleep are about all I need to get for our third baby. Plus, I have all of my daughter and son's clothes stored, so I have all the clothes I need whether this is a boy or girl!

I look at it this way, if God calls you to a certain lifestyle, He will show you, and He will provide for you. Not to say that it will be easy, but He gives us strength for the hard times too.

I pray that your husband's health improves and that God will show you what He wants you to do.

Have a great week!

 

[PilgrimChild]

Thanks for your post. It doesn't look like another baby is anywhere in our plans at the moment ( ), but we've saved the car seat and crib anyway. They were our two most expensive items. I've saved all the 'special' and 'cute' clothes and 'first items', if you know what I mean.
We'd just need more clothes and nappies/diapers, for the next one.

 

[Katydid]

Sorry, I didn't read all the responses. But, I saw that you got alot of good info about where to read up on it.

As far as the financial goes, for us it is not easy. But then again, we find that having four children is cheaper than having one. I know that this sounds strange, so let me explain....


Most parents consider disposable diapers as a necessity. For us, they are a priveledge that we can afford only for vacations and such.

Most parents will buy pop-tarts and eggo waffles. I cook all of our food from scratch except occasionally when dh spoils me with a box of pop-tarts for breakfast one morning.

When we had one child, we went out at least weekly to a movie or chuckie cheese. Now, it is only special occasions that we even consider doing those things.

With one child, we didn't think twice about charging a crib, or exersaucer. Now we only pay in cash and our only credit card is our Lowe's card for home repairs.

So, our entire lifestyle has adjusted to accomodate our needs. And God truly does provide. For some reason, last time we ran out of money, the Electric company found out that they had been over charging us for over 6 months and viola!! They sent us a check for over $300. The time before that, our mortgage company somehow charged us too much for the escrow and amazingly right when we needed it sent us a check for $600. Those are only 2 incidents out of many other smaller ones.




We do not take any government assistance. Our medical is covered because dh is military.

 

[Sabertooth]

As to hand-outs, DW & one DD are disabled, requiring more of my presence at home in support. While DD is at school, I am available for part-time work, but as much as I ENJOY doing full-time work [as a technical support engineer], my household always seems to suffer in my absence. Their two [pensions] pay most of our expenses, but it's their conditions that puts us in this position, not the number of kids we have. It would still be a problem if we were just a family of three. When a disabled older DS was living with us, we had three [pensions] coming in and I was able to devote my time to just being a caregiver.

All that is to say that QF families are vulnerable to the same forces everyone else is. We're just that much more fruitful at the same time. We think some of this fallout may be tied to reap and sow of some of our DSs that are involved in criminal activities, but that can happen in non-QF families, as well.

 

[PilgrimChild]

Just wanted to say thankyou again to everyone for their input. Much appreciated!

 

[CelticRose]

Hi. I'm in Oz too. Fewer kids than some of the others here but perhaps more able to address some of your concerns specifically. My hubby is a bricklayer/horticulturalist. He broke his back about 10 years ago when our older kids were just starting High school & has been on disability ever since. He will never work again. We were committed to homeschooling our youngest & that was very definitly my job.

We are semi rural & grew a lot of our own fruit & veg; gardening was part of the curriculum. We also kept chooks & our boys were avid crabbers & fisherman though not all of us eat seafood.

A lot of our clothing was bought 2nd hand. You can get really nice stuff if you use the Vinnies in the snobbier suburbs or touristy places.

When our expenditures were at their heaviest I had some part~time/casual work at the local school doing remedial stuff plus the occassional freelance writing sell.

Money has always been tight but we have always paid our bills & there was money for club soccer for the middle 3 (plus expenditure for travel costs, boots, shinnies & subs Xs 3) & my youngest girl learns 3 instruments. God really does provide for the necessities, & even some of our 'wants'.

 

[PilgrimChild]

Hi. I'm in Oz too. Fewer kids than some of the others here but perhaps more able to address some of your concerns specifically. My hubby is a bricklayer/horticulturalist. He broke his back about 10 years ago when our older kids were just starting High school & has been on disability ever since. He will never work again. We were committed to homeschooling our youngest & that was very definitly my job.

We are semi rural & grew a lot of our own fruit & veg; gardening was part of the curriculum. We also kept chooks & our boys were avid crabbers & fisherman though not all of us eat seafood.

A lot of our clothing was bought 2nd hand. You can get really nice stuff if you use the Vinnies in the snobbier suburbs or touristy places.

When our expenditures were at their heaviest I had some part~time/casual work at the local school doing remedial stuff plus the occassional freelance writing sell.

Money has always been tight but we have always paid our bills & there was money for club soccer for the middle 3 (plus expenditure for travel costs, boots, shinnies & subs Xs 3) & my youngest girl learns 3 instruments. God really does provide for the necessities, & even some of our 'wants'.

You are awesome. Thanks for sharing all this! It was great to read an Aussie perspective.

 

[Assisi]

This is a great thread. Thanks for all the awesome info ladies. My husband and I hope to have a large family (but obviously that's up to God!) and this thread has really helped me to see how much can be done with faith in God.