Some Questions that non-Catholics have about Catholic teachin

[BobRyan]

This site came up as related to an MSN home-page when I logged in today -

20 Catholic Beliefs That Aren’t In The Bible | Wealthy Boomers


MSN 20 Catholic Beliefs that aren't in the Bible

MSN

It asks some questions - most of which I would consider to be "reasonable questions" that a non-Catholic might be asking.

No doubt many of you have met someone asking at least one of these questions.

Of course the phrase "beliefs that aren't in the Bible" explains a lot of it since many Catholics don't claim that their beliefs necessarily need to be in the Bible to be acceptable to them.

But for many non-Catholics (including the Catholic protestors that were protesting certain practices in the church) - relying on doctrine that is not in the Bible has been a barrier.

It seems like a bit of a circular argument to say something that is not in the Bible must be so merely because "we say it is so". Under those standards - what sort of belief could not be ruled out?

==================================

To those who may wish to derail the topic - please take a look at the MSN link and comment on what is actually in the topic.

 

[concretecamper]

Deja Vu.

How many years do the same things need to be addressed.Nothing new here.

 

[jas3]

What are the questions? This article is just a list of complaints.

Edit: also, the MSN link is broken. I assume it's the same article as the one from "wealthy boomers."

 

[BobRyan]

People are free to agree with the list that MSN presented if they wish. I am not saying that people need to feel the need to defend those teachings.

But it is hard for most of us to ignore the fact that these are some very good observations about what is not in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

What are the questions? This article is just a list of complaints.

Edit: also, the MSN link is broken. I assume it's the same article as the one from "wealthy boomers."

yes - they are the same - I will check the MSN link.... (ok it is fixed now - thanks for bringing that up)

If someone is not Catholic and wants to say something like "Well my church also has core doctrines that are not in the Bible" they are welcomed to chime in to show similar situations as long as they really are similar.

 

[HTacianas]

This site came up as related to an MSN home-page when I logged in today -

20 Catholic Beliefs That Aren’t In The Bible | Wealthy Boomers


MSN 20 Catholic Beliefs that aren't in the Bible

It asks some questions - most of which I would consider to be "reasonable questions" that a non-Catholic might be asking.

No doubt many of you have met someone asking at least one of these questions.

Of course the phrase "beliefs that aren't in the Bible" explains a lot of it since many Catholics don't claim that their beliefs necessarily need to be in the Bible to be acceptable to them.

But for many non-Catholics (including the Catholic protestors that were protesting certain practices in the church) - relying on doctrine that is not in the Bible has been a barrier.

It seems like a bit of a circular argument to say something that is not in the Bible must be so merely because "we say it is so". Under those standards - what sort of belief could not be ruled out?

==================================

To those who may wish to derail the topic - please take a look at the MSN link and comment on what is actually in the topic.

Let's first off scratch the idea of "Catholic beliefs" from the question. That's because most of the ones listed are not "Catholic beliefs". They are "Christian beliefs". While a few of them may be unique to the Roman Church -such as the Immaculate Conception- most of them are in fact universal among all of the Apostolic Churches. They are Christian beliefs. To begin with the most important, the Eucharist. The Eucharist is explicitly defined by the New Testament. One only need read John 6:48-58 for Jesus' own words describing it, and then look to Paul who said of it:

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

And then:

1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

It becomes not a matter of if a thing has to be in the bible, but how many times it has to be in the bible. Adding onto that, there is an unbroken chain of commentaries from the Church Fathers down to modern times explicitly teaching that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. And that is universally attested to by every account of it.

Now, that's the biggie. We can continue on with the rest if you like.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's first off scratch the idea of "Catholic beliefs" from the question. That's because most of the ones listed are not "Catholic beliefs". They are "Christian beliefs".

Well I did not write the article. The link itself has that name/title.

For "The 20" they list
1. Mary's Immaculate Conception (by her mother) -- not in the Bible
2. Assumption of Mary -- not in the Bible
3. Purgatory - not in the Bible
4. Infallibility of the Pope - not in the Bible, introduced in 1800's
5. Papal office, duties, specifics etc -- not in the Bible
6. Praying the Rosary -- not in the Bible
7. Holy Water, use of so-called Holy Water -- not in the Bible
8. Confession (Booth and Priest arrangement seen today) - not in the Bible
9. Praying to saints, festival of various saints -- not in the Bible
10. Process for canonizing saints.. any sort of such a process -- not in the Bible
11. Seven Sacraments
12. Sunday as the Holy Day -- week day 1 as a weekly day devoted to worship not in the NT
13. Celebate Priesthood - not in the Bible
14. Using incense in Christian worship services -- not in the Bible
15. Baptizing infants (to wash away original sin or avoid limbo) -- not in the Bible
16. Transubstantiation (confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the mass) -- not in the Bible
17. Indulgences -- indulgences for the dead that are earned to get them out of purgatory) - not in the Bible
18. Liturgical colors - one for lent, one for Easter etc -- not in the Bible
19. Stations of the cross (also for earning indulgences for the dead) -- not in the Bible
20. Guardian Angels (the article is pretty weak on this one)

While a few of them may be unique to the Roman Church -such as the Immaculate Conception- most of them are in fact universal

I find it hard to believe that 19 of them are universal.

among all of the Apostolic Churches. They are Christian beliefs. To begin with the most important, the Eucharist. The Eucharist is explicitly defined by the New Testament. One only need read John 6:48-58 for Jesus' own words describing it, and then look to Paul who said of it:

I agree that certain aspects of the Eucharist are easier to find in the Bible than others.

It becomes not a matter of if a thing has to be in the bible, but how many times it has to be in the bible.

Having it in the bible even once - would at least justify the claim that it is a Bible topic and can be evaluated as such for strengths vs weaknesses.

 

[HTacianas]

Well I did not write the article. The link itself has that name/title.

For "The 20" they list
1. Mary's Immaculate Conception (by her mother) -- not in the Bible
2. Assumption of Mary -- not in the Bible
3. Purgatory - not in the Bible
4. Infallibility of the Pope - not in the Bible, introduced in 1800's
5. Papal office, duties, specifics etc -- not in the Bible
6. Praying the Rosary -- not in the Bible
7. Holy Water, use of so-called Holy Water -- not in the Bible
8. Confession (Booth and Priest arrangement seen today) - not in the Bible
9. Praying to saints, festival of various saints -- not in the Bible
10. Process for canonizing saints.. any sort of such a process -- not in the Bible
11. Seven Sacraments
12. Sunday as the Holy Day -- week day 1 as a weekly day devoted to worship not in the NT
13. Celebate Priesthood - not in the Bible
14. Using incense in Christian worship services -- not in the Bible
15. Baptizing infants (to wash away original sin or avoid limbo) -- not in the Bible
16. Transubstantiation (confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the mass) -- not in the Bible
17. Indulgences -- indulgences for the dead that are earned to get them out of purgatory) - not in the Bible
18. Liturgical colors - one for lent, one for Easter etc -- not in the Bible
19. Stations of the cross (also for earning indulgences for the dead) -- not in the Bible
20. Guardian Angels (the article is pretty weak on this one)

I find it hard to believe that 19 of them are universal.

I agree that certain aspects of the Eucharist are easier to find in the Bible than others.

Having it in the bible even once - would at least justify the claim that it is a Bible topic and can be evaluated as such for strengths vs weaknesses.

I find it hard to believe that 19 of them are universal.

That would be why I said a few of them and then gave one as an example.

Having it in the bible even once - would at least justify the claim that it is a Bible topic and can be evaluated as such for strengths vs weaknesses.

There is nothing to evaluate. The nature of the Eucharist was fixed by Jesus Christ and preached by the Apostles long ago. There's no sense re-visiting it now.

As to purgatory:

Luk 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Where does all that stuff happen?

 

[BobRyan]

As to purgatory:

Luk 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Where does all that stuff happen?

No mention of purgatory
No mention of "while the person is dead"
No mention of "but if someone earns an indulgence for them they will be released"
No mention of the spiritual bank of merits of the saints being drawn upon to release someone from there.
No mention of the idea of "they suffer then go to heaven" in that verse -- yet that is the very thing that Purgatory teaches.

So since your ID says you are Orthodox - is it your claim that the Orthodox church has its own doctrine on Purgatory? IF so , I would like to hear about it.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well I did not write the article. The link itself has that name/title.

For "The 20" they list
1. Mary's Immaculate Conception (by her mother) -- not in the Bible
2. Assumption of Mary -- not in the Bible
3. Purgatory - not in the Bible
4. Infallibility of the Pope - not in the Bible, introduced in 1800's
5. Papal office, duties, specifics etc -- not in the Bible
6. Praying the Rosary -- not in the Bible
7. Holy Water, use of so-called Holy Water -- not in the Bible
8. Confession (Booth and Priest arrangement seen today) - not in the Bible
9. Praying to saints, festival of various saints -- not in the Bible
10. Process for canonizing saints.. any sort of such a process -- not in the Bible
11. Seven Sacraments
12. Sunday as the Holy Day -- week day 1 as a weekly day devoted to worship not in the NT
13. Celebate Priesthood - not in the Bible
14. Using incense in Christian worship services -- not in the Bible
15. Baptizing infants (to wash away original sin or avoid limbo) -- not in the Bible
16. Transubstantiation (confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the mass) -- not in the Bible
17. Indulgences -- indulgences for the dead that are earned to get them out of purgatory) - not in the Bible
18. Liturgical colors - one for lent, one for Easter etc -- not in the Bible
19. Stations of the cross (also for earning indulgences for the dead) -- not in the Bible
20. Guardian Angels (the article is pretty weak on this one)

I find it hard to believe that 19 of them are universal.

Having it in the bible even once - would at least justify the claim that it is a Bible topic and can be evaluated as such for strengths vs weaknesses.

when you say "catholic" please differentiate between the ROMAN church and the Orthodox church. 1-5, 13, 17 and 19 are strictly ROMAN catholic and NOT Orthodox, BTW, incense was used in Temple worship.

 

[dzheremi]

Well I did not write the article. The link itself has that name/title.

For "The 20" they list
1. Mary's Immaculate Conception (by her mother) -- not in the Bible
2. Assumption of Mary -- not in the Bible
3. Purgatory - not in the Bible
4. Infallibility of the Pope - not in the Bible, introduced in 1800's
5. Papal office, duties, specifics etc -- not in the Bible
6. Praying the Rosary -- not in the Bible
7. Holy Water, use of so-called Holy Water -- not in the Bible
8. Confession (Booth and Priest arrangement seen today) - not in the Bible
9. Praying to saints, festival of various saints -- not in the Bible
10. Process for canonizing saints.. any sort of such a process -- not in the Bible
11. Seven Sacraments
12. Sunday as the Holy Day -- week day 1 as a weekly day devoted to worship not in the NT
13. Celebate Priesthood - not in the Bible
14. Using incense in Christian worship services -- not in the Bible
15. Baptizing infants (to wash away original sin or avoid limbo) -- not in the Bible
16. Transubstantiation (confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the mass) -- not in the Bible
17. Indulgences -- indulgences for the dead that are earned to get them out of purgatory) - not in the Bible
18. Liturgical colors - one for lent, one for Easter etc -- not in the Bible
19. Stations of the cross (also for earning indulgences for the dead) -- not in the Bible
20. Guardian Angels (the article is pretty weak on this one)

I find it hard to believe that 19 of them are universal.

I agree that certain aspects of the Eucharist are easier to find in the Bible than others.

Having it in the bible even once - would at least justify the claim that it is a Bible topic and can be evaluated as such for strengths vs weaknesses.

Not in the Bible: the (Seventh Day) Adventist religion.

Sorry I can't find an article on "Wealthy Boomers" to back this one up, but y'know, I don't really have the time or inclination to start threads aimed a trying to tear down other people's churches in the first place, so...

 

[HTacianas]

No mention of purgatory
No mention of "while the person is dead"
No mention of "but if someone earns an indulgence for them they will be released"
No mention of the spiritual bank of merits of the saints being drawn upon to release someone from there.
No mention of the idea of "they suffer then go to heaven" in that verse -- yet that is the very thing that Purgatory teaches.

So since your ID says you are Orthodox - is it your claim that the Orthodox church has its own doctrine on Purgatory? IF so , I would like to hear about it.

The Orthodox Church has no doctrine on purgatory. If there is a purgatory, there is. If there is not, there is not. It does not change anything. Personally I hope there is. Because I would not want to face the alternative.

 

[Valletta]

This site came up as related to an MSN home-page when I logged in today -

20 Catholic Beliefs That Aren’t In The Bible | Wealthy Boomers


MSN 20 Catholic Beliefs that aren't in the Bible

MSN

It asks some questions - most of which I would consider to be "reasonable questions" that a non-Catholic might be asking.

No doubt many of you have met someone asking at least one of these questions.

Of course the phrase "beliefs that aren't in the Bible" explains a lot of it since many Catholics don't claim that their beliefs necessarily need to be in the Bible to be acceptable to them.

But for many non-Catholics (including the Catholic protestors that were protesting certain practices in the church) - relying on doctrine that is not in the Bible has been a barrier.

It seems like a bit of a circular argument to say something that is not in the Bible must be so merely because "we say it is so". Under those standards - what sort of belief could not be ruled out?

==================================

To those who may wish to derail the topic - please take a look at the MSN link and comment on what is actually in the topic.

The article states: "Ever wondered about the beliefs that shape Catholic tradition but aren't explicitly mentioned in the Bible?" Note the word "explicitly." There are various Christian beliefs not "explicitly" in the Bible, and there is a wide range from explicit to supported to implied to not mentioned at all. The Holy Trinity, three Persons, one God, is not explicitly stated in the Bible. Catholics believe in all of the teachings that were passed down from Jesus through the Apostles. We are to "stand fast" to all of these teachings, that includes oral teachings:
"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Luke 10:16 RSVCE
Protestants have adopted Scripture only, so then obviously there are "barriers" to accepting that not explicitly in the Bible, although I guess you just overlook the Holy Trinity and who knows how much else.

 

[BobRyan]

The article states: "Ever wondered about the beliefs that shape Catholic tradition but aren't explicitly mentioned in the Bible?" Note the word "explicitly." There are various Christian beliefs not "explicitly" in the Bible

Instructive that they do not include "trinity" in that list -- likely because the "one God" Deut 6:4 "in three persons" Matt 28:19 position is found in the Bible even though not spelled out explicitly.

Those that claim their doctrine is not found in the Bible should provide some sort of list to compare to.

The Holy Trinity, three Persons, one God, is not explicitly stated in the Bible.

And not included in the list that MSN gave.

Catholics believe in all of the teachings that were passed down

No doubt they would claim certain traditions - passed down - that are not in the Bible. But they have no first century sources for most of them.

In any case - people can choose whatever they wish - my point is that the list they gave includes many popular Catholic doctrines and practices questioned for not being in the Bible

Protestants have adopted Scripture only

Indeed - testing all things by the Bible in the Acts 17:11 sense "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things were so " regarding the teaching of Paul in the city of Berea.

obviously there are "barriers" to accepting that not explicitly in the Bible, although I guess you just overlook the Holy Trinity and who knows how much else.

As I said before - the Trinity is not one of those mentioned in the list at all, and I pointed to some of the Bible statements that would keep that off of a list of "not in the Bible" topics.

 

[BobRyan]

The Orthodox Church has no doctrine on purgatory. If there is a purgatory, there is. If there is not, there is not.

If you can't rely on the Bible to help you with that question - what would an Orthodox Christian choose for his/her source?

"hope"??

 

[BobRyan]

Not in the Bible: the (Seventh Day) Adventist religion.

No doubt "Orthodox religion", "Roman Catholic Religion", "Seventh-day Adventist religion" are not terms found in the Bible -

And very helpful that the MSN article does not mention anything of that sort - because that is not quite as serious as pointing to actual doctrine not being in the Bible.

Sorry I can't find an article on "Wealthy Boomers" to back this one up, but y'know, I don't really have the time

consider clicking one of the links in the OP.

or inclination to start threads aimed a trying to tear down other people's churches in the first place, so...

I don't think the MSN article was out to tear down as much as to point to common observations among non-Catholics when it comes to what is or is not in the Bible.

Even some Catholic posts here admit to some of their teaching being in tradition rather than in the Bible - in certain cases.

I am simply pointing out that the MSN web site provides a good example of teaching/doctrine that is often not found in the Bible and from a non-Catholic sola-scriptura POV would be high on a list of questions.

 

[HTacianas]

If you can't rely on the Bible to help you with that question - what would an Orthodox Christian choose for his/her source?

"hope"??

It's not a matter of relying on the bible or not. Because the bible, as we have pointed out, describes punishment for both intentional sins and sins of ignorance. Those punishments differ. And Paul describes a "day of fire" that we will all suffer. You cannot answer what those punishments are, neither can you explain what the day of fire is. So we are left with the Orthodox view, that being we don't know.

And in the Orthodox view, it doesn't matter. We know what we are required to do in this life so we should concentrate on that.

 

[Valletta]

Instructive that they do not include "trinity" in that list -- likely because the "one God" Deut 6:4 "in three persons" Matt 28:19 position is found in the Bible even though not spelled out explicitly.

Somewhat slanted is more like it.

No doubt they would claim certain traditions - passed down - that are not in the Bible. But they have no first century sources for most of them.

Sacred Tradition, rather than mere tradition, and Sacred Scripture comprise the Word of God. All of the Catholic faith comes from the deposit of the faith which ended in the death of the last Apostle. As to historical sources, Catholic convert Cardinal John Henry Cardinal Newman stated: "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." But some, such as the Assumption, are considered revealed truths. The Catholic Church teaches that we can come to a deeper understanding of some of these truths over time, that there is a hierarchy of truths with basic core truths being revealed first.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Instructive that they do not include "trinity" in that list -- likely because the "one God" Deut 6:4 "in three persons" Matt 28:19 position is found in the Bible even though not spelled out explicitly.

Somewhat slanted is more like it.

I don't see the Bible statement on One God - in Three Persons - to be the anti-catholic sentiment that you seem to view it to be.
I am a bit surprised that you would have any negative view of that Bible fact at all - given its support for the Trinity.

Sacred Tradition, rather than mere tradition, and Sacred Scripture comprise the Word of God.

Mark 7:7-13 is a case of supposedly infallible tradition of the one true nation church started infallibly by God at Sinai - being slam-hammered "sola scriptura".

So while it is true that some tradition is not in error - the Bible shows that Christ found some tradition to be in error.

All of the Catholic faith comes from the deposit of the faith which ended in the death of the last Apostle.

No doubt some good arguments are out there about tradition that can't be found in the Bible. I don't see the MSN article as an attack on all tradition. It is just making the case that some teachings are not in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

It's not a matter of relying on the bible or not. Because the bible, as we have pointed out, describes punishment for both intentional sins and sins of ignorance. Those punishments differ. And Paul describes a "day of fire" that we will all suffer. You cannot answer what those punishments are,

I can see them in Rev 20 pretty clearly.