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With Hitler he was taught about Jesus as a youth but he rejected him, he will sit in this spirit prison remembering each and every death which his actions caused, he will see the pain and sorrow and he will be racked with the pains of a damned soul. At some point before the last of the resurrection the concept of a Jesus and his mercy will come into his mind and he will call upon Jesus, mercy will be shown him and he will be released from the spirit prison. He will enter the Telestial kingdom, he will find happiness there.
In your concept Hitler will never be shown mercy he will burn forever.
The men who organized and participated in the Mountain Meadow Massacre might also qualify depending on how much "of the world to come" any of them had experienced. John D. Lee is the only one who faced a firing squad but they had to drag him up there, it wasn't exactly willingly.
In Mormonism, Hitler is required to make restitution and earn each blessing. You are not being reasonable nor biblical when you predict Hitler's future.
He can't make make a physical restitution, he can only suffer the broken heart and contrite spirit which caused even God to bleed at every pore.
I have a question for every one;
I struggle with a nemesis, a woman who I avoid like the plague. We honestly moved to get away from her. Her son tried to rape my eleven year old daughter and she herself is as crazy as a loon. For two years she made my life miserableness. She is a pedophile, she abused her own boys. I've struggled learning to forgive her. I read a little article which said forgiveness does not have to mean reconciliation, I can forgive, let go of the anger and put her in God's hands.
Okay that's good, but part of the forgiveness for me has been telling myself she is mentally ill. Her mental illness has caused her to be a sinner.
But is it really the other way around? Her countenance is blank, the Holy Spirit has left her. I'm not the only one who has said this. Is it she sinned so the Spirit left her and she became mentally ill? Is she just evil in her heart? I don't know much about her back ground, can't believe a word she says, she lies every time she opens her mouth.
I ask this because of Hitler, was he just mentally ill if so will he be held accountable?
Why would Hitler be forgiven? When did he become a Christian (not a temporary change) and why would the Holy Spirit, Who remains with every Christian forever, entice a person to commit the crimes that Hitler committed?
God doesn't cause Christians to become mentally ill.
I don't believe Hitler became a Christian he rejected it. The Spirit would have tried to witness to him but he rejected that witness.
All of us come into life the light of Christ in him. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men" but we can snuff out that light once we reject the Holy Spirit. My question is does the withdrawal of this light and the spirit cause mental illness. Or are people just mentally ill and not accountable for their sins. I'm not talking about some mental illnesses which we know are caused by chemical imbalances but like this woman I know, she seems cold as a stone.
Do you believe the devil can fill in the void where the light once was.
1 John 2:11
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
She may not understand or comprehend the extent of her transgressions. It sounds like you have done your best at forgiving her. We can not know what she has gone through and if she has mental or a chemical imbalance It's just up to us to forgive and that mean hitler as wellI have a question for every one;
I struggle with a nemesis, a woman who I avoid like the plague. We honestly moved to get away from her. Her son tried to rape my eleven year old daughter and she herself is as crazy as a loon. For two years she made my life miserableness. She is a pedophile, she abused her own boys. I've struggled learning to forgive her. I read a little article which said forgiveness does not have to mean reconciliation, I can forgive, let go of the anger and put her in God's hands.
Okay that's good, but part of the forgiveness for me has been telling myself she is mentally ill. Her mental illness has caused her to be a sinner.
But is it really the other way around? Her countenance is blank, the Holy Spirit has left her. I'm not the only one who has said this. Is it she sinned so the Spirit left her and she became mentally ill? Is she just evil in her heart? I don't know much about her back ground, can't believe a word she says, she lies every time she opens her mouth.
I ask this because of Hitler, was he just mentally ill if so will he be held accountable?
Thank you for this nice explanation of Lutheran beliefs. Basic clarification question for me: Lutherans do a the sacrament of confession, similar in form to Catholics, correct? (Even though there is no recounting of every sin, as you described)"although in confession an enumeration of all sins is not necessary."
The Lutheran Confessions take a stand against a popular opinion at the time that it was required to enumerate each and every sin at confession; the Lutheran stance is that this fundamentally isn't even possible; for one it would be impossible to recall each and every sin which we have committed at every hour of each day; but that is why we also in our general confession say (usually in some form), "Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against You in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone..."
I was trying to indicate that George was the former bolded case (claiming Christ, but still delighting in this particular sin). In traditional binary Christian mentality, George has rejected Christ. In LDS theology, God grants George the most mercy He can, and George (who did diligently repent of most sins and follow Christ to some degree) has some degree of greater blessing than a total non-believer.Has George continued to struggle with covetousness, and coveted even unknowingly? Or does continue to covet, and in earnest continue to confess his covetousness either by name or by such a general confession?
Or is George fully aware of his covetousness, and not only has no remorse for it, but delights in it, and scorns and has contempt against God in his refusal to repent?
In the former case of course George is repentant, even if he has not specifically enumerated his covetousness or every covetous act. In the latter case we would say George, in fact, has no faith in Christ and openly and actively opposes Christ and the gifts of God's mercy.
And I'd say there really is no such thing as the "quasi-repentant"; being repentant is not about being able to remember and enumerate each and every sin; one is either repentant or they're not repentant. Without repentance there is no faith.
But it is Christ, when He comes to judge the living and the dead, who separates the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats.
-CryptoLutheran
John D. Lee was a scapegoat.
On April 20, 1961, a joint council was held with the First Presidency and the Council of Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "After considering all the facts available,” the Church authorized “reinstatement to membership and former blessings to John D. Lee.” The reinstatement puzzled many. But four decades later, the church claimed full responsibility for the incident that led to Lee’s execution. At a memorial ceremony on September 11, 2007, the sesquicentennial anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, LDS Apostle Henry B. Eyring read the church’s official statement to gatherers:
“We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago today, and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time. A separate expression of regret is owed the Paiute people who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occurred during the massacre. Although the extent of their involvement is disputed, it is believed they would not have participated without the direction and stimulus provided by local church leaders and members.”
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...untain-meadows-110735627/#eiIMCD0ulD7lSfVj.99
That reinstatement was done in 1961 I'm not sure they would do it today, it's all in the Lord's hands anyway.
You should read the book Massacre at Mountain Meadow. Isaac Haight a Stake President from Ceder City was the seed to the idea Lee carried it out. The book gives a list of everyone involved and their varying degrees of responsibility. There were some who had no idea what was about to happen. I think it was like when people will say they felt like they were standing outside of themselves. They knew it was about to happen but didn't think it would really happen. One young man talks about holding the reigns of some horses while he watched Lee kill people, more like he was in a daze.
Others were more than happy to be there. Lee admitted to killing an innocent child which a man was holding up to protect himself, he didn't think Lee would shoot him as long as he held the child. Lee shot through the child and killed the man.
Haight let things get out of control, he lied to another Stake President to draw him in. He did try to put a stop to it but to late Lee had jumped the gun. He wasn't even there when it happened so how the Lord will judge him is hard to say.
And I'm kind of hard on the some of the women, they were holding a prayer vigil while their men were out murdering but then again a lot of lies had been told.
But there were others who boldly opposed Haight and Lee, they knew it was all wrong, we were to turn the other cheek and love our enemies.
It's a hard book to read but a good one.
Hi Quid est Veritas,
I’m going to answer your atonement questions first, and then the hierarchal heaven stuff in a second post (I’m seeing two different subjects).
Same difference: they are ONE. To wrong Christ is the wrong the Father, and vise-versa.
Christ’s forgiveness in the Father’s forgiveness, and vise versa. They are ONE.
You have this mostly right. The part I will correct is that Christ was God before this world as well, and it was His law as well. Also, again I will stress that Christ was the ONLY Son whom could complete it—this was far from an arbitrary choice.
I don’t like your “corporate” analogy, because I see corporates being cold and impersonal.
The closest* thing we see to the unity between the Son and the Father is the perfect union between a husband and wife: they are completely unified to be ONE. What is his is hers, and vise versa. To here something from her is to hear it from him. To have him do something is to have her do something. They are ONE.
* And by “closest thing” I mean still light years and light years apart. We fallible sinful humans are so far from the glory that is God.
As to the Blood Atonement: do you realize that this was never official LDS doctrine and has been disavowed?
Honestly, I think going over a dead concept really messes up people’s understanding of the Atonement. A murder can repent and go to Heaven, even the highest heaven. Example: Moses.
In order to understand what Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Charles W. Penrose and others have said, we must mention that there are some sins for which the blood of Christ alone does not cleanse a person. These include blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (as defined by the Church) and that murder which is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice. However, and this cannot be stressed too strongly, this law has not been given to the Church at any time in this dispensation. It has no application whatever to anyone now living whether he is a member or a non-member of the Church.
There simply is no such thing among us as a doctrine of blood atonement that grants a remission of sins or confers any other benefit upon a person because his own blood is shed for sins. Let me say categorically and unequivocally that this doctrine can only operate in a day when there is no separation of Church and State and when the power to take life is vested in the ruling theocracy as was the case in the day of Moses.
Addressing the Heaven subject---
LDS believe God will forgive us of our sins, in as much as we relinquish them to Him. If we love some of our sins more than Him, God will not force us to change. And by the same token, God will bless us as much as we allow Him to— again, if we love our sins more than Him, He won’t force us.
Let’s take an example of an unrepentant child molester “Bob”. Bob loves lust and power drives he gets from his sins. He loves that more than God. Now, in traditional Christian theology, Bob would simply burn in Hell for eternity (please correct me if I’m misrepresenting things here). In LDS theology, Bob is forgiven of the sins he will repent of, and gets to go to Heaven—it’s not the same magnitude of glorious Heaven Mother Teresa is in, but it’s still a mind-boggling super nice place. Bob even gets to feel the influence of God—not the Father or Son, but He does get to feel the Spirit. It is actually very merciful that Bob does not dwell in the Son’s presence- because Bob knows he did many horrible things, bring much suffering… but did not repent of it.
Let’s take another example of “George” who’s an okay dude- didn’t do anything horrible in life, and actually lives a good life generally following Christ. He repented of many of his sins, but still covets some of the accomplishments of others, and refuses to surrender that sin to the Lord. George gets a much nice afterlife than Bob, and dwells with Christ as well, but not the Father. Again, this is merciful, because George doesn’t want to dwell with the Father—he’s too aware of the spots of sin on him. (In your faith, what is George’s fate? I’m asking honestly.)
I realize that this is different than traditional creedal Christianity—in my mind it’s actually one of the big 5 differences between LDS thought and creedal Christianity. Personally, I find the LDS view to be much more merciful and demonstrates a more powerful and kind God than the binary tradition. Obviously I acknowledge and respect that other people feel different.
Now addressing some specific questions--
The only thing which is limiting the atonement here is a person’s refusal to surrender their sins and accept the atonement.
This is incorrect. Outer darkness is reserved for crimes much more severe than simply killing someone. Note: I’m not ignoring the extreme evil of murder, but pointing out the extreme extreme extreme evil of things such as denying the Spirit.
This seems like a different subject. Did you want me to answer it, or do you feel that we have enough subjects on our plates already?
Not necessarily. If Hitler accepted Jesus on his deathbed or last moment, he could be in heaven, similar to the Good Thief.But they are saved from outer darkness.
I'm trying to break this down so you understand it. In our understanding there are two parts to hell, the spirit prison and outer darkness. Alma experienced the racking pains of a dammed soul and then after three days it was brought to his memory the words of his father about Jesus, so he calls upon Jesus and asks for his mercy. He is immediately forgiven. This is what the spirit prison will be like for those who will not repent in this life, they will eventually be forgiven.
But it is assumed that the person who has "tasted of the world to come" then in his anger and pride commits murder has become so harden in his heart he will not repent. If in this life he does "come to himself" and repent then he must show it by submitting to capital punishment, he has a chance. But if he goes out of this life without repentance it is assume he just won't do it, he is past feeling the word of the Lord.
In the Book of Mormon there is a case in point;
Nephi speaking to his older brothers;
"....and ye also have sought to take away his/Lehi life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them. Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.... O, then, why is it, that ye can be so hard in your hearts?
Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off forever. Behold, I am full of the Spirit of God, insomuch that my frame has no strength. And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea"
He reaches out his hand and he gives them a powerful shock which throws them to the ground, only that makes them back off. They try several more times to kill him, their own mother is suffering and pleads with them but their hearts are hard and they can't see past their own hatred of their brother. These two men are considered sons of perdition, they are passed feeling they will never repent. Not because God doesn't love them and wish they would they just wont do it.
There are only three men who are scripturelly documented sons of perdition, Cain and these to brothers. Even Hitler can't qualify because he never "tasted of the world to come". Brigham Young felt there were several who orchestrated the murder of Joseph Smith who also qualified, they saw angels. The men who organized and participated in the Mountain Meadow Massacre might also qualify depending on how much "of the world to come" any of them had experienced. John D. Lee is the only one who faced a firing squad but they had to drag him up there, it wasn't exactly willingly.
With Hitler he was taught about Jesus as a youth but he rejected him, he will sit in this spirit prison remembering each and every death which his actions caused, he will see the pain and sorrow and he will be racked with the pains of a damned soul. At some point before the last of the resurrection the concept of a Jesus and his mercy will come into his mind and he will call upon Jesus, mercy will be shown him and he will be released from the spirit prison. He will enter the Telestial kingdom, he will find happiness there.
In your concept Hitler will never be shown mercy he will burn forever.
Mental illness has a physical component. God judges us on our soul, not the quality of the Machine it is driving.I have a question for every one;
I struggle with a nemesis, a woman who I avoid like the plague. We honestly moved to get away from her. Her son tried to rape my eleven year old daughter and she herself is as crazy as a loon. For two years she made my life miserableness. She is a pedophile, she abused her own boys. I've struggled learning to forgive her. I read a little article which said forgiveness does not have to mean reconciliation, I can forgive, let go of the anger and put her in God's hands.
Okay that's good, but part of the forgiveness for me has been telling myself she is mentally ill. Her mental illness has caused her to be a sinner.
But is it really the other way around? Her countenance is blank, the Holy Spirit has left her. I'm not the only one who has said this. Is it she sinned so the Spirit left her and she became mentally ill? Is she just evil in her heart? I don't know much about her back ground, can't believe a word she says, she lies every time she opens her mouth.
I ask this because of Hitler, was he just mentally ill if so will he be held accountable?
Thank you. Has post #64 been deleted? It isn't showing on my monitor.
Thank you for this nice explanation of Lutheran beliefs. Basic clarification question for me: Lutherans do a the sacrament of confession, similar in form to Catholics, correct? (Even though there is no recounting of every sin, as you described)
Clarification about LDS beliefs: LDS do not have a Catholic-like sacrament of confession to a priest*, rather we confess directly to the Lord. When confessing, we agree that it is unnecessary/impossible to list every sin. Confessing of covertness is just one part of the repentance process, the ultimate end goal being so that the person no longer covets nor desires to covet (this is a very long term goal).
I was trying to indicate that George was the former bolded case (claiming Christ, but still delighting in this particular sin). In traditional binary Christian mentality, George has rejected Christ. In LDS theology, God grants George the most mercy He can, and George (who did diligently repent of most sins and follow Christ to some degree) has some degree of greater blessing than a total non-believer.
Not necessarily. If Hitler accepted Jesus on his deathbed or last moment, he could be in heaven, similar to the Good Thief.
Point being? A Suicide is just another sin, I doubt it perpetually condemns someone.He committed suicide
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