LDS Some questions regarding Mormon views on Atonement

Jane_Doe · Jun 3, 2016

Quid est Veritas? said:
In Satisfaction theology, a sacrifice is required to leave Justice intact, but this is done by the wronged party itself. Instead of merely forgiving and thereby leaving the injustice, punishment is exacted, but as God himself does this, it shows consequences and eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth without it being carried by another. It therefore is forgiveness with justice. God forgives the crime but exacts vengeance for it without the guilty suffering or anyone else.

I'm going to rephrase this slightly:
Premise #1) God is 100% just and therefore cannot ignore the demands of justice. A crime committed must be paid for.
2) God is also 100% merciful. He enacts this mercy by allowing another (our Savior) to take our guilt from us, to suffer the punishment we deserve, and allow us to be clean.

A false idea would be that God could just ignore the fact that a wrong has been committed.

Quid est Veritas? said:
If the Father and Jesus are separate, it merely becomes the exaction of Justice on a proxy instead of a supreme act of forgiveness. The wronged party must also be the one to be punished for it - for forgiveness to occur and not vengeance only.

So the mormon view would be the Father exacting vengeance upon Jesus and Jesus lovingly sacrificing himself to maintain divine Law, but nowhere does Forgiveness enter the process, merely Retribution.
Please help me to clarify if what I have said is correct or not.

Christ stands in our place: for our transgressions He is wounded (Isaiah 53:5). Through His sacrifice, the law of justice is satisfied (remember, God is 100% just and cannot disregard the Law). Also by His His stripes we are healed (again Isaiah 53:5) and God may therefore may mercifully forgive us of our sins (remember, God is 100% merciful).

Quid est Veritas? · Jun 3, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
No our Father in Heaven knows each of us and what is in our hearts. What in the world is "outer darkness" for if not for some who do not repent. We're talking about a soul who like the devil knows God but spits in his eye. God would love to offer him mercy but he refuses it.

Our miss understanding each other might lie in that you see heaven and hell while we see outer darkness and three kingdoms of glory. Only in the Celestial Kingdom does one receive "eternal life" or life as the Eternal God lives it.

If the murderer will submit to capital punishment then he is showing God he has real remorse for his sin and so he is saved out of "outer darkness' mercy has been applied but he has no eternal life in him so he is not allowed back into the presence of the Father.

Committing suicide is not submitting to capital punishment.

I would think a suicide shows real remorse as well, like Judas Iscariot, but I understand your point.
The problem with the Blood Atonement doctrine still remains that it renders Jesus' atonement insufficient for certain crimes, which could imply the need for additional willing sacrifices to make up the difference by the righteous. For of course you would want everyone saved.
I am not too familiar with Mormonism, so please tell me what the difference is between the three kingdoms of Glory and why they would be necessary.

withwonderingawe said:
You have an odd way of looking at it, "vengeance" is not a Mormon word, not one I would have chosen to describe the atonement. I did a word search of the Book of Mormon and found the word vengeance is used 13 times and never in the sense of atonement but in the sense of an earthly calamity.

Perhaps you could explain how you think the atonement works and what the following verses mean to you.

Heb 5
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The word perfect means to be complete and thoroughly finished. In Luke 13 Jesus says "and the third day I shall be perfected" he was talking about his own resurrection.

Acts 5;
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Because of the sacrifice Jesus offered for us God the Father raised him up to have a glorified resurrected, exalted and perfect body. If he had not done this he himself could not have attained this completion.

In John 17 there is a little line "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them" Those who prove faithful and return to the Father's presence though the mercy Jesus offers bring glory to Jesus who then glorifies the Father.

He did it out of love for us first but the by product was his own exaltation and glorification.

Vengeance was a bit of a strong word. Basically what I mean is that for God to maintain his Justice, he cannot allow sin to go unpunished, but the only fit punishment is utter destruction. Thus He punishes Jesus to maintain his Justice.
To forgive would mean to abandon the wrong against you committed by others. So as Jesus is God as well, He takes the punishment upon Himself and thus maintaining Justice, but still can forgive the wrong done. For God thus enacted a grand Sacrifice within Himself allowing the abandonment of our sin in an act of forgiveness.

If Jesus and the Father are separate though, then He maintains Justice, but is not forgiving mankind in the atonement but enacting the punishment due to us upon a third party, Jesus.

My wording is shading into Penal Substitution here and not Satisfaction Atonement, but the explanation is similar.

I think the Hebrews, Acts and John passages refers to the completion of Atonement, not to a change in status of Jesus, but that is the standard Christian view I suppose.

Quid est Veritas? · Jun 3, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
I'm going to rephrase this slightly:
Premise #1) God is 100% just and therefore cannot ignore the demands of justice. A crime committed must be paid for.
2) God is also 100% merciful. He enacts this mercy by allowing another (our Savior) to take our guilt from us, to suffer the punishment we deserve, and allow us to be clean.

A false idea would be that God could just ignore the fact that a wrong has been committed.

Christ stands in our place: for our transgressions He is wounded (Isaiah 53:5). Through His sacrifice, the law of justice is satisfied (remember, God is 100% just and cannot disregard the Law). Also by His His stripes we are healed (again Isaiah 53:5) and God may therefore may mercifully forgive us of our sins (remember, God is 100% merciful).

I agree with all of this.
My problem though remains that without a Trinity it only maintains Justice and yes maintains mercy, but doesn't show forgiveness of sins. Only a wronged party can forgive a sin due to them. If you receive the just payment for a debt or wrong committed, it wasn't forgiven as such, but compensated.
However if you pay the debt to yourself in another's name, it is in essence forgiven by you. Jesus acting as a separate entity however is then not the wronged party and so does not allow this, so I do not see how we can consider it the 'forgiveness of sin' then.

This is why I said before that if the Atonement was solely to Jesus, perhaps it could work, but this raises perplexing points on his relation toward the Father and the applicability of To Jesus-only Atonement atoning sinful Humanity to the Father, amongst others. From what I gather, I don't think Mormonism teaches such an atonement though, but a Full atonement to the Father as well.

Then added ideas like blood atonement and ordinances make it appear as if this is not sufficient in and of itself, so obviously as my understanding of Mormon Theology is lacking, I am quite confused for quotes like the one below from a fellow named Russel Nelson says again that it is infinite.

In preparatory times of the Old Testament, the practice of atonement was finite—meaning it had an end. It was a symbolic forecast of the definitive Atonement of Jesus the Christ. His Atonement is infinite—without an end.29 It was also infinite in that all humankind would be saved from never-ending death. It was infinite in terms of His immense suffering. It was infinite in time, putting an end to the preceding prototype of animal sacrifice. It was infinite in scope—it was to be done once for all.30 And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.31 It was infinite beyond any human scale of measurement or mortal comprehension.

Jesus was the only one who could offer such an infinite atonement, since He was born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. Because of that unique birthright, Jesus was an infinite Being

Jane_Doe · Jun 3, 2016

Quid est Veritas? said:
I agree with all of this.
My problem though remains that without a Trinity it only maintains Justice and yes maintains mercy, but doesn't show forgiveness of sins. Only a wronged party can forgive a sin due to them. If you receive the just payment for a debt or wrong committed, it wasn't forgiven as such, but compensated.
However if you pay the debt to yourself in another's name, it is in essence forgiven by you. Jesus acting as a separate entity however is then not the wronged party and so does not allow this, so I do not see how we can consider it the 'forgiveness of sin' then.

This is why I said before that if the Atonement was solely to Jesus, perhaps it could work, but this raises perplexing points on his relation toward the Father and the applicability of To Jesus-only Atonement atoning sinful Humanity to the Father, amongst others. From what I gather, I don't think Mormonism teaches such an atonement though, but a Full atonement to the Father as well.

Then added ideas like blood atonement and ordinances make it appear as if this is not sufficient in and of itself, so obviously as my understanding of Mormon Theology is lacking, I am quite confused for quotes like the one below from a fellow named Russel Nelson says again that it is infinite.

Ok, I see your bigger question now. As you have been very thorough in your responses here, I'd like to take the time to give you a thorough well worded response. It will likely take me a day or two to write one up though.

Rescued One · Jun 3, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
Cain did not submit to a capital death, he didn't offer to give up his own life. It was all me, me, me. David on the other hand felt true remorse for what he had done, his soul will not be left in hell.

Part of it has to do with how much the person knew to be true and how much they walked by faith.

Can you tell us why you don't know Mormonism? "There is no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost."

"Cain was the first person to commit this sin, and he is a son of perdition, condemned to Outer Darkness."

"David was a son of Jesse of the tribe of Judah. He was a courageous youth who slew a lion, a bear, and the Philistine giant Goliath (1 Sam. 17). David was chosen and anointed to be king of Israel. Like Saul, in his adult life he was guilty of grave crimes, but, unlike Saul, he was capable of true contrition. He was therefore able to find forgiveness, except in the murder of Uriah (D&C 132:39)."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/david?lang=eng

How can you possibly say you know Mormonism? Were you once another religion --- maybe an LDS group that didn't follow Brigham Young?

Rescued One · Jun 3, 2016

Quid est Veritas? said:
I agree with all of this.
My problem though remains that without a Trinity it only maintains Justice and yes maintains mercy, but doesn't show forgiveness of sins. Only a wronged party can forgive a sin due to them. If you receive the just payment for a debt or wrong committed, it wasn't forgiven as such, but compensated.
However if you pay the debt to yourself in another's name, it is in essence forgiven by you. Jesus acting as a separate entity however is then not the wronged party and so does not allow this, so I do not see how we can consider it the 'forgiveness of sin' then.

This is why I said before that if the Atonement was solely to Jesus, perhaps it could work, but this raises perplexing points on his relation toward the Father and the applicability of To Jesus-only Atonement atoning sinful Humanity to the Father, amongst others. From what I gather, I don't think Mormonism teaches such an atonement though, but a Full atonement to the Father as well.

Then added ideas like blood atonement and ordinances make it appear as if this is not sufficient in and of itself, so obviously as my understanding of Mormon Theology is lacking, I am quite confused for quotes like the one below from a fellow named Russel Nelson says again that it is infinite.

The confusion is caused by Mormons with insufficient knowledge of Mormonism attempting to explain it to you, and the Mormon leaders' suppression of some doctrines so that they can promote new ones. Russell Nelson is a General Authority and President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles; he knows Mormon doctrine.

withwonderingawe · Jun 3, 2016

Quid est Veritas? said:
so please tell me what the difference is between the three kingdoms of Glory and why they would be necessary.

It comes from a couple of revelations given to Joseph Smith.

There are three kingdoms of Glory, the highest is the Celestial where God the Father lives and those who inherit this kingdom will become exalted. They are they who entered in at the strait gate and followed the path through obedience to eternal life or life as God knows it, they will become one with God.

The second kingdom is the Terrestrial, these are the honorable people of the earth they have received salvation from sin through the grace of Christ and they are blessed by his presence. It is a place of happiness and glory.

The third kingdom is the Telestial kingdom, these are they who reject the savior and had to pay for their own sins until the last farthing is paid, which I believe is until they are humble enough to call on the Savior as Alma did in Alma 36. They leave what we call the spirit prison to receive a resurrection and this lesser glory. It to is a place of happiness and peace.

Outer darkness has no glory, it is reserved for Satan and his angels plus a teeny tiny handful of sons of perdition. These are they who willfully sin after receiving a revelation from the Holy Ghost beyond what most of us normally receive. They spit in God's eye, they love Satan more than God, they may have murdered and not felt remorse. They will receive their resurrection but only to darkness.

In the Bible there is this reference; 1 Cor 15
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown incorruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Rescued One · Jun 4, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
It comes from a couple of revelations given to Joseph Smith.

There are three kingdoms of Glory, the highest is the Celestial where God the Father lives and those who inherit this kingdom will become exalted. They are they who entered in at the strait gate and followed the path through obedience to eternal life or life as God knows it, they will become one with God.

The second kingdom is the Terrestrial, these are the honorable people of the earth they have received salvation from sin through the grace of Christ and they are blessed by his presence. It is a place of happiness and glory.

The third kingdom is the Telestial kingdom, these are they who reject the savior and had to pay for their own sins until the last farthing is paid, which I believe is until they are humble enough to call on the Savior as Alma did in Alma 36. They leave what we call the spirit prison to receive a resurrection and this lesser glory. It to is a place of happiness and peace...

As usual you omitted pertinent information.

The Celestial Kingdom has three levels. Only those in the highest level are exalted to godhood. Those in the two lower levels are not exalted and are not in the Father's presence.

Quoted from lesson manual:

Those who comply with the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and endure to the end gain the right to become eternal parents. The Prophet Joseph Smith, as he spoke verses 1–4 to William Clayton, stated: “Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after theresurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.” (History of the Church, 5:391; see also Smith, Teachings, pp. 300–301.)...

“‘In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

"‘And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

“‘And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

“‘He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.’ (D&C 131:1–4.)

“He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation!

“The Lord says further in the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants:

“‘No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).

“No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.” (“The Importance of Celestial Marriage,” Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.)

Keys to Exaltation, Section 131, Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 325-326

D&C 132:3–6. “If Ye Abide Not That Covenant, Then Are Ye Damned”
The “new and everlasting covenant” (D&C 132:4) is the covenant of celestial marriage, as President Spencer W. Kimball stated: “Though relatively few people in this world understand it, the new and everlasting covenant is the marriage ordinance in the holy temple by the properly constituted leaders who hold the genuine, authoritative keys. This glorious blessing is available to men and women on this earth.” (“Temples and Eternal Marriage,” Ensign, Aug. 1974, p. 5.)

One can sense the importance of accepting the covenant from the number of times the Lord repeats this warning:

“All who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same” (D&C 132:3).

“If ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned” (v. 4).

“No one can reject this covenant and … enter into my glory” (v. 4).

“All who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law” (v. 5).

“He that receiveth a fulness [of my glory] must and shall abide the law” (v. 6).

President Kimball stressed how the Saints should view this commandment (see Notes and Commentary for D&C 131:4). Those who reject this covenant cannot progress eternally because they do not inherit the blessings of eternal increase.
Section 132 Marriage: An Eternal Covenant, Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual

Rescued One · Jun 4, 2016

"We do not know much about who will inherit two of the three degrees within the celestial kingdom. However, much has been said about the highest level in the celestial kingdom, or exaltation, because that is where the Father wants all of His children to live (see Moses 1:39). The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that temple marriage is the key to obtaining exaltation..."
B. Renato Maldonado, “Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory,” Ensign, Apr 2005

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

Quid est Veritas? said:
I agree with all of this.

Ok Quid est Veritas, I've put considerable thought in how to best explain this to you. I'm going to try to by pithy here, but please let me know if you want me to elaborate anywhere. I can also provide scripture references for any point (I'm just a little short on time to add them all right now).

Quid est Veritas? said:
My problem though remains that without a Trinity it only maintains Justice and yes maintains mercy, but doesn't show forgiveness of sins. Only a wronged party can forgive a sin due to them. If you receive the just payment for a debt or wrong committed, it wasn't forgiven as such, but compensated.
However if you pay the debt to yourself in another's name, it is in essence forgiven by you. Jesus acting as a separate entity however is then not the wronged party and so does not allow this, so I do not see how we can consider it the 'forgiveness of sin' then.

This is why I said before that if the Atonement was solely to Jesus, perhaps it could work, but this raises perplexing points on his relation toward the Father and the applicability of To Jesus-only Atonement atoning sinful Humanity to the Father, amongst others. From what I gather, I don't think Mormonism teaches such an atonement though, but a Full atonement to the Father as well.

A couple of things here:
1) Christ is the Judge: He shall evaluate each person individually. If that person has taken His name and repented of their sins, Christ satisfies the needs of justice by pays the penalty for their sin, He forgives the person, washes them clean. If a person has not repented, then they must pay the horrible toll of justice themselves.

So Christ is the one paying the price of justice, and the one issuing forgiveness.

2) About the Law: is the God's Law. Meaning that is the Father's law and the Son's law. Christ can pay the toll, issue forgiveness, judge, etc because He is God and ONE with the Father.

3) What is the Father doing during this? Being well pleased in His Son, having authorized Him to be the savior and judge.

Quid est Veritas? said:
I am quite confused for quotes like the one below from a fellow named Russel Nelson says again that it is infinite:

[Jane putting Nelson's quote in italics]
In preparatory times of the Old Testament, the practice of atonement was finite—meaning it had an end. It was a symbolic forecast of the definitive Atonement of Jesus the Christ. His Atonement is infinite—without an end.29 It was also infinite in that all humankind would be saved from never-ending death. It was infinite in terms of His immense suffering. It was infinite in time, putting an end to the preceding prototype of animal sacrifice. It was infinite in scope—it was to be done once for all.30 And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.31 It was infinite beyond any human scale of measurement or mortal comprehension.

Jesus was the only one who could offer such an infinite atonement, since He was born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. Because of that unique birthright, Jesus was an infinite Being

What Nelson is talking about here is first the animal sacrifices in the OT: each sacrifice only made possible a small finite forgiveness. The Israelites had to keep doing them over and over again.

These animal sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Christ and His infinite sacrifice: a sacrifice which made forgiveness of ALL sins (past, present, future) to be forgiven forever. After this great infinite atonement, there was no need for any other sacrifice.

Did that help at all?

withwonderingawe · Jun 5, 2016

Phoebe Ann said:
The Celestial Kingdom has three levels. Only those in the highest level are exalted to godhood. Those in the two lower levels are not exalted and are not in the Father's presence.

That's not true and one will progress within the kingdom.

What do you think happens to all of the babies which die before they ever get a chances to marry or all the young men who die at war do you think the Lord would not have a way for them to be eternally sealed?? There are a lot of singles in the Church my own son is one of them, the Lord is not going to forge them.

Speaking to singles in the Church;
"You must remember that the Lord loves you and the Church loves you. … We have no control over the heartbeats or the affections of men [or women], but pray that you may find fulfillment. And in the meantime, we promise you that insofar as eternity is concerned, no soul will be deprived of rich and high and eternal blessings for anything which that person could not help, that the Lord never fails in his promises, and that every righteous person will receive eventually all to which the person is entitled and which he or she has not forfeited through any fault of his or her own” President Spencer W. Kimball (Ensign, Oct. 1979, p. 5).

There is going to be a thousand year reign of Christ on this earth and during that time all these things will be worked out.

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
That's not true and one will progress within the kingdom.

What do you think happens to all of the babies which die before they ever get a chances to marry or all the young men who die at war do you think the Lord would not have a way for them to be eternally sealed?? There are a lot of singles in the Church my own son is one of them, the Lord is not going to forge them.

Speaking to singles in the Church;
"You must remember that the Lord loves you and the Church loves you. … We have no control over the heartbeats or the affections of men [or women], but pray that you may find fulfillment. And in the meantime, we promise you that insofar as eternity is concerned, no soul will be deprived of rich and high and eternal blessings for anything which that person could not help, that the Lord never fails in his promises, and that every righteous person will receive eventually all to which the person is entitled and which he or she has not forfeited through any fault of his or her own” President Spencer W. Kimball (Ensign, Oct. 1979, p. 5).

There is going to be a thousand year reign of Christ on this earth and during that time all these things will be worked out.

I know about the Mormon view of the millernnium. You said, "That's not true." Be specific about what is not true. I quoted Mormon leaders. You quoted Mormon leaders. Are those leaders speculating? What do your standard works (scriptures) say about proxy marriages or marriages in the millennium? Nothing.

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2016

Phoebe Ann said:
Can you tell us why you don't know Mormonism? "There is no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost."

"Cain was the first person to commit this sin, and he is a son of perdition, condemned to Outer Darkness."

"David was a son of Jesse of the tribe of Judah. He was a courageous youth who slew a lion, a bear, and the Philistine giant Goliath (1 Sam. 17). David was chosen and anointed to be king of Israel. Like Saul, in his adult life he was guilty of grave crimes, but, unlike Saul, he was capable of true contrition. He was therefore able to find forgiveness, except in the murder of Uriah (D&C 132:39)."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/david?lang=eng

How can you possibly say you know Mormonism? Were you once another religion --- maybe an LDS group that didn't follow Brigham Young?

I asked the questions and received no answer.

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2016

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41

fatboys · Jun 5, 2016

Phoebe Ann said:
As usual you omitted pertinate information.

The Celestial Kingdom has three levels. Only those in the highest level are exalted to godhood. Those in the two lower levels are not exalted and are not in the Father's presence.

Quoted from lesson manual:

Those who comply with the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and endure to the end gain the right to become eternal parents. The Prophet Joseph Smith, as he spoke verses 1–4 to William Clayton, stated: “Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after theresurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.” (History of the Church, 5:391; see also Smith, Teachings, pp. 300–301.)...

“‘In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

"‘And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

“‘And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

“‘He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.’ (D&C 131:1–4.)

“He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation!

“The Lord says further in the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants:

“‘No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory’ (D&C 132:4).

“No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.” (“The Importance of Celestial Marriage,” Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5–6.)

Keys to Exaltation, Section 131, Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 325-326

D&C 132:3–6. “If Ye Abide Not That Covenant, Then Are Ye Damned”
The “new and everlasting covenant” (D&C 132:4) is the covenant of celestial marriage, as President Spencer W. Kimball stated: “Though relatively few people in this world understand it, the new and everlasting covenant is the marriage ordinance in the holy temple by the properly constituted leaders who hold the genuine, authoritative keys. This glorious blessing is available to men and women on this earth.” (“Temples and Eternal Marriage,” Ensign, Aug. 1974, p. 5.)

One can sense the importance of accepting the covenant from the number of times the Lord repeats this warning:

“All who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same” (D&C 132:3).

“If ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned” (v. 4).

“No one can reject this covenant and … enter into my glory” (v. 4).

“All who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law” (v. 5).

“He that receiveth a fulness [of my glory] must and shall abide the law” (v. 6).

President Kimball stressed how the Saints should view this commandment (see Notes and Commentary for D&C 131:4). Those who reject this covenant cannot progress eternally because they do not inherit the blessings of eternal increase.
Section 132 Marriage: An Eternal Covenant, Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual

There are many levels in each glory

fatboys · Jun 5, 2016

Phoebe Ann said:
I asked the questions and received no answer.

And?

Quid est Veritas? · Jun 5, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
That's not true and one will progress within the kingdom.

What do you think happens to all of the babies which die before they ever get a chances to marry or all the young men who die at war do you think the Lord would not have a way for them to be eternally sealed?? There are a lot of singles in the Church my own son is one of them, the Lord is not going to forge them.

Speaking to singles in the Church;
"You must remember that the Lord loves you and the Church loves you. … We have no control over the heartbeats or the affections of men [or women], but pray that you may find fulfillment. And in the meantime, we promise you that insofar as eternity is concerned, no soul will be deprived of rich and high and eternal blessings for anything which that person could not help, that the Lord never fails in his promises, and that every righteous person will receive eventually all to which the person is entitled and which he or she has not forfeited through any fault of his or her own” President Spencer W. Kimball (Ensign, Oct. 1979, p. 5).

There is going to be a thousand year reign of Christ on this earth and during that time all these things will be worked out.

To me the idea of a graded Afterlife is disturbing in and of itself. Not necessarily hierarchy, but that there is a differentiation of access to the Father.
This again speaks to the insufficient Atonement as for some reason the Atonement is enough for certain individuals to reach God, but for others to have to loll about on lower planes. (Whether they reach God eventually and the higher one or not)
The same with the idea of Outer Darkness holding host to murderers unless they atone judiciously themselves via Capital Punishment. This means Jesus' sacrifice is insufficient for murder, so why not will it be insufficient for cumulative sins of a severe sinner or eventually for all human sin? The Atonement is strongly implied to be transactional by this, ie this much atonement for this much sin.

As to your discussion with @Phoebe Ann , David never underwent capital punishment for Urriah and God himself decided not to kill Cain, but leave him a wanderer. So David should then be excluded from the highest heaven and it would seem that God treated Cain unfairly, as he was never given a chance to atone himself.

I would just like to point out that Phoebe Ann tends to quote Mormon writings in support of her contentions. It doesn't really seem as if her quotes are addressed, just their content denied. I am not very familiar with Mormonism as there are very few in my country, but I would assume that if her assertions were wrong you would be able to show how she had misinterpreted her quotes.
Regardless, why would marriage at all matter to one's station in Heaven, when Jesus himself says that we shall not be married in the Afterlife? (Matthew 22:30)

fatboys · Jun 6, 2016

Quid est Veritas? said:
To me the idea of a graded Afterlife is disturbing in and of itself. Not necessarily hierarchy, but that there is a differentiation of access to the Father.
This again speaks to the insufficient Atonement as for some reason the Atonement is enough for certain individuals to reach God, but for others to have to loll about on lower planes. (Whether they reach God eventually and the higher one or not)
The same with the idea of Outer Darkness holding host to murderers unless they atone judiciously themselves via Capital Punishment. This means Jesus' sacrifice is insufficient for murder, so why not will it be insufficient for cumulative sins of a severe sinner or eventually for all human sin? The Atonement is strongly implied to be transactional by this, ie this much atonement for this much sin.

As to your discussion with @Phoebe Ann , David never underwent capital punishment for Urriah and God himself decided not to kill Cain, but leave him a wanderer. So David should then be excluded from the highest heaven and it would seem that God treated Cain unfairly, as he was never given a chance to atone himself.

I would just like to point out that Phoebe Ann tends to quote Mormon writings in support of her contentions. It doesn't really seem as if her quotes are addressed, just their content denied. I am not very familiar with Mormonism as there are very few in my country, but I would assume that if her assertions were wrong you would be able to show how she had misinterpreted her quotes.
Regardless, why would marriage at all matter to one's station in Heaven, when Jesus himself says that we shall not be married in the Afterlife? (Matthew 22:30)

David will be

Quid est Veritas? · Jun 6, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
Ok Quid est Veritas, I've put considerable thought in how to best explain this to you. I'm going to try to by pithy here, but please let me know if you want me to elaborate anywhere. I can also provide scripture references for any point (I'm just a little short on time to add them all right now).

A couple of things here:
1) Christ is the Judge: He shall evaluate each person individually. If that person has taken His name and repented of their sins, Christ satisfies the needs of justice by pays the penalty for their sin, He forgives the person, washes them clean. If a person has not repented, then they must pay the horrible toll of justice themselves.

So Christ is the one paying the price of justice, and the one issuing forgiveness.

2) About the Law: is the God's Law. Meaning that is the Father's law and the Son's law. Christ can pay the toll, issue forgiveness, judge, etc because He is God and ONE with the Father.

3) What is the Father doing during this? Being well pleased in His Son, having authorized Him to be the savior and judge.

What Nelson is talking about here is first the animal sacrifices in the OT: each sacrifice only made possible a small finite forgiveness. The Israelites had to keep doing them over and over again.

These animal sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Christ and His infinite sacrifice: a sacrifice which made forgiveness of ALL sins (past, present, future) to be forgiven forever. After this great infinite atonement, there was no need for any other sacrifice.

Did that help at all?

Thank you for taking the time.

First, Christ as Judge doesn't really solve the problem as the wronged party remains the Father and not Jesus. Jesus judges man for their sins, but that doesn't mean that the wrong necessarily was done to him. So He dispenses justice, but if not the Father himself, I still fail to see how this can be considered forgiveness and not just compensation.

Second: If the Law belongs to both, why was Jesus anointed God of this world for the Atonement and creation? The passages quoted in this thread seems to imply the Law existed before with the Father alone, and chose a son to complete it, with Jesus volunteering. This still means a third party being subjected to the Father's law.
I take it your Jesus and the Father are One is in a corporate sense? So this would be management promoting someone to Vice-President of the company to complete their business plan and in the process act as a sacrificial lamb for the President himself.

As to the Infinite nature of the Sacrifice of Jesus, this makes little sense to me when we consider a graded Afterlife with the concept of Blood Atonement and certain crimes being beyond its redemptive power. This to me, seems to say that though Jesus' sacrifice was great, it cannot atone everything nor atone perfectly in and of itself. Therefore I do not see why repeat atonements might not be necessary if mankind's sins are especially egregious, nor why individual's atoning for their own sins might not be applied (such as in a Mormon sect deciding that allowing sacrifices of their members under their auspices might atone their sins). These are disturbing implications in my mind.

Quid est Veritas? · Jun 6, 2016

fatboys said:
David will be

withwonderingawe said:
I think you are referring to what Brigham Young called a ‘blood atonement’ or that some sins will not be covered and a man would have to die or be punished for his own sins, that only applies to a very specific sin and one has to work really hard to qualify.

Matt 12
31 ¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Heb 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

To sin against the Holy Ghost one must be a baptized and endowed member of the Lord’s church “tasted of the heavenly gift”. Plus one must have had a powerful witness of the Holy Spirit, a vision or some kind of situation where they are no long walking by faith but by sight. Then they must commit the worst sin of murder. If you take a life you can not repent of it by restoring that life,

Phoebe Ann said:
"David was a son of Jesse of the tribe of Judah. He was a courageous youth who slew a lion, a bear, and the Philistine giant Goliath (1 Sam. 17). David was chosen and anointed to be king of Israel. Like Saul, in his adult life he was guilty of grave crimes, but, unlike Saul, he was capable of true contrition. He was therefore able to find forgiveness, except in the murder of Uriah (D&C 132:39)."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/david?lang=eng

Please explain then how David will be able to enter the Highest heaven in light of Phoebe Ann's quotation from the Doctrine and Covenant that says he was not forgiven for Uriah.
Clearly David fulfils all the Criteria as listed by WithWonderingAwe for a sin not covered by the Atonement and David never underwent Blood Atonement. Therefore, if I understand correctly, he would be excluded from at least the highest grade of the afterlife if not more.

LDS Some questions regarding Mormon views on Atonement

Well-Known Member

In Memoriam to CS Lewis

In Memoriam to CS Lewis

Well-Known Member

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Well-Known Member

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

In Memoriam to CS Lewis

Senior Veteran

In Memoriam to CS Lewis

In Memoriam to CS Lewis

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency