• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The other day a Mormon responded to a post of mine where I had said that the Trinity is required for Atonement to function properly. Unfortunately the thread in question was moved to a Christian-only area and the post deleted so I could never respond nor ask about it.

Essentially Mormonism holds to a Henotheistic plural gods theology with pre-existent souls.
In regards to Atonement, Mormonism sees Jesus' Crucifixion as the conclusion of a sin offering to expiate sin.

There are a number of problems here.
  • If Jesus is just another of the pre-existent spirits, even if the eldest, then his sacrifice could have been done by anyone. Would other human sacrifices then not also be propitiary, especially if we borrow Old Testament concepts like Sin Offering?
  • Further related to the above point, does not ideas like Blood Atonement for certain sins that are too great for Jesus' Atonement point in this very direction? That more blood seems to be necessary for greater sins (at least in a perfect Theocracy according to what I have read on the subject according to LDS scholars)? Does this not significantly detract from the Atonement of Christ, leaving it but a deposit of propitiation which may someday run out?
  • If God didn't take sin upon himself, isn't this just sadistic cruelty to one of his sons? As sin is something that brings distance between us and God, why would it be forgiven through the torture of a separate entity from the Father?
  • Without a Trinity, how does Atonement occur as the normal Christian theories like Moral Influence, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor etc. needs this concept. Otherwise they veer off into a transactional arrangement of how much atonement for how much sin and Sadism as noted above.
  • Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Getshemane is the important part of the Passion narrative? Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?
Please enlighten me if I have made any mistakes on Mormon doctrine for I find what I have read on this topic disturbing. I can clearly see how Mormonism could justify Human Sacrifice and on reading about the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Blood Atonement, it seems the theology was heading in this direction. Luckily it didn't, but Mormonism seems to teach that Blood Atonement may still apply in a perfect Theocracy according to Bruce McConkie. If such a state of affairs is declared in existance by the LDS church at some point or Mormon fundamentalists believe themselves to be a Theocracy, does the theology not then excuse Human Sacrifice?
If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser. I hope I am mistaken, for the few Mormons I met seemed quite nice and I would hate for them to be saddled with the metaphysical baggage here described.
 

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
72
Salem Ut
✟184,049.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The other day a Mormon responded to a post of mine where I had said that the Trinity is required for Atonement to function properly. Unfortunately the thread in question was moved to a Christian-only area and the post deleted so I could never respond nor ask about it.

Essentially Mormonism holds to a Henotheistic plural gods theology with pre-existent souls.
In regards to Atonement, Mormonism sees Jesus' Crucifixion as the conclusion of a sin offering to expiate sin.

There are a number of problems here.
  • If Jesus is just another of the pre-existent spirits, even if the eldest, then his sacrifice could have been done by anyone. Would other human sacrifices then not also be propitiary, especially if we borrow Old Testament concepts like Sin Offering?
  • Further related to the above point, does not ideas like Blood Atonement for certain sins that are too great for Jesus' Atonement point in this very direction? That more blood seems to be necessary for greater sins (at least in a perfect Theocracy according to what I have read on the subject according to LDS scholars)? Does this not significantly detract from the Atonement of Christ, leaving it but a deposit of propitiation which may someday run out?
  • If God didn't take sin upon himself, isn't this just sadistic cruelty to one of his sons? As sin is something that brings distance between us and God, why would it be forgiven through the torture of a separate entity from the Father?
  • Without a Trinity, how does Atonement occur as the normal Christian theories like Moral Influence, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor etc. needs this concept. Otherwise they veer off into a transactional arrangement of how much atonement for how much sin and Sadism as noted above.
  • Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Getshemane is the important part of the Passion narrative? Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?
Please enlighten me if I have made any mistakes on Mormon doctrine for I find what I have read on this topic disturbing. I can clearly see how Mormonism could justify Human Sacrifice and on reading about the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Blood Atonement, it seems the theology was heading in this direction. Luckily it didn't, but Mormonism seems to teach that Blood Atonement may still apply in a perfect Theocracy according to Bruce McConkie. If such a state of affairs is declared in existance by the LDS church at some point or Mormon fundamentalists believe themselves to be a Theocracy, does the theology not then excuse Human Sacrifice?
If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser. I hope I am mistaken, for the few Mormons I met seemed quite nice and I would hate for them to be saddled with the metaphysical baggage here described.

Hey thanks for some good and thoughtful questions, give me a little while and I'll have an answer for you.
 
Upvote 0

Super14LDS

Active Member
Apr 8, 2016
268
26
62
USA
✟21,391.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The other day a Mormon responded to a post of mine where I had said that the Trinity is required for Atonement to function properly. Unfortunately the thread in question was moved to a Christian-only area and the post deleted so I could never respond nor ask about it.

Essentially Mormonism holds to a Henotheistic plural gods theology with pre-existent souls.
In regards to Atonement, Mormonism sees Jesus' Crucifixion as the conclusion of a sin offering to expiate sin.

There are a number of problems here.
  • If Jesus is just another of the pre-existent spirits, even if the eldest, then his sacrifice could have been done by anyone. Would other human sacrifices then not also be propitiary, especially if we borrow Old Testament concepts like Sin Offering?
  • Further related to the above point, does not ideas like Blood Atonement for certain sins that are too great for Jesus' Atonement point in this very direction? That more blood seems to be necessary for greater sins (at least in a perfect Theocracy according to what I have read on the subject according to LDS scholars)? Does this not significantly detract from the Atonement of Christ, leaving it but a deposit of propitiation which may someday run out?
  • If God didn't take sin upon himself, isn't this just sadistic cruelty to one of his sons? As sin is something that brings distance between us and God, why would it be forgiven through the torture of a separate entity from the Father?
  • Without a Trinity, how does Atonement occur as the normal Christian theories like Moral Influence, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor etc. needs this concept. Otherwise they veer off into a transactional arrangement of how much atonement for how much sin and Sadism as noted above.
  • Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Getshemane is the important part of the Passion narrative? Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?
Please enlighten me if I have made any mistakes on Mormon doctrine for I find what I have read on this topic disturbing. I can clearly see how Mormonism could justify Human Sacrifice and on reading about the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Blood Atonement, it seems the theology was heading in this direction. Luckily it didn't, but Mormonism seems to teach that Blood Atonement may still apply in a perfect Theocracy according to Bruce McConkie. If such a state of affairs is declared in existance by the LDS church at some point or Mormon fundamentalists believe themselves to be a Theocracy, does the theology not then excuse Human Sacrifice?
If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser. I hope I am mistaken, for the few Mormons I met seemed quite nice and I would hate for them to be saddled with the metaphysical baggage here described.

Here is a link to the moved thread that is now closed.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...o-believe-in-the-trinity-to-be-saved.7948064/

A great question. :)
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
6,771
Midwest
✟128,057.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
  • Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Getshemane is the important part of the Passion narrative? Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?
Mormonism:

They used to teach (in the past) that the blood shed through Christ's pores in Gethsemane atoned for everyone's sin so that they could be resurrected and judged according to their obedience. The atonement allows mortals the opportunity to earn their way to a level higher than those who don't keep all the laws and ordinances. After judgment the resurrected would be assigned to one of several places: Outer Darkness; Telestial Kingdom; Terrestrial Kingdom; Lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom; Second level of the Celestial Kingdom; Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom where God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit are.

If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser.

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. I never viewed it that way. Can you explain?

I seem to have lost part of this reply!:scratch:
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,042
116
✟107,821.00
Gender
Female
Faith
(Note: I could comment on your opening paragraph, but instead choosing to focus on your actual questions.

If Jesus is just another of the pre-existent spirits, even if the eldest, then his sacrifice could have been done by anyone.
No, it could not have been performed by anyone, it had to be performed by the sinless Son of God.

Would other human sacrifices then not also be propitiary, especially if we borrow Old Testament concepts like Sin Offering?
No, the rest of us have sinned.

Further related to the above point, does not ideas like Blood Atonement for certain sins that are too great for Jesus' Atonement point in this very direction?
The short answer here is: ditch this false idea.
Long answer is more involved than I have time for right now.

If God didn't take sin upon himself, isn't this just sadistic cruelty to one of his sons?
No, it is the sinless Son of God taking the sins of the world upon Himself, and His loving Father allowing this because He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

Without a Trinity, how does Atonement occur as the normal Christian theories like Moral Influence, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor etc. needs this concept. Otherwise they veer off into a transactional arrangement of how much atonement for how much sin and Sadism as noted above.
Forgive, I am not familiar enough with the specific jargon you are using here to comment.

Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Getshemane is the important part of the Passion narrative?
Short answer: because it’s important. Why do you skip it?

Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?
Nope.

I can clearly see how Mormonism could justify Human Sacrifice and on reading about the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Blood Atonement,
No, that’s not the justification for that massacre. There is no justification of any massacre, it was wrong. VERY wrong.

If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser. ,
NO!!! Completely completely wrong.

I hope I am mistaken
You are 300% mistaken.
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
72
Salem Ut
✟184,049.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The other day a Mormon responded to a post of mine where I had said that the Trinity is required for Atonement to function properly. Unfortunately the thread in question was moved to a Christian-only area and the post deleted so I could never respond nor ask about it.

Essentially Mormonism holds to a Henotheistic plural gods theology with pre-existent souls.
In regards to Atonement, Mormonism sees Jesus' Crucifixion as the conclusion of a sin offering to expiate sin.

There are a number of problems here.
  • If Jesus is just another of the pre-existent spirits, even if the eldest, then his sacrifice could have been done by anyone. Would other human sacrifices then not also be propitiary, especially if we borrow Old Testament concepts like Sin Offering?
  • Further related to the above point, does not ideas like Blood Atonement for certain sins that are too great for Jesus' Atonement point in this very direction? That more blood seems to be necessary for greater sins (at least in a perfect Theocracy according to what I have read on the subject according to LDS scholars)? Does this not significantly detract from the Atonement of Christ, leaving it but a deposit of propitiation which may someday run out?
  • If God didn't take sin upon himself, isn't this just sadistic cruelty to one of his sons? As sin is something that brings distance between us and God, why would it be forgiven through the torture of a separate entity from the Father?
  • Without a Trinity, how does Atonement occur as the normal Christian theories like Moral Influence, Penal Substitution, Christus Victor etc. needs this concept. Otherwise they veer off into a transactional arrangement of how much atonement for how much sin and Sadism as noted above.
  • Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Getshemane is the important part of the Passion narrative? Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?
Please enlighten me if I have made any mistakes on Mormon doctrine for I find what I have read on this topic disturbing. I can clearly see how Mormonism could justify Human Sacrifice and on reading about the Mountain Meadows massacre and the Blood Atonement, it seems the theology was heading in this direction. Luckily it didn't, but Mormonism seems to teach that Blood Atonement may still apply in a perfect Theocracy according to Bruce McConkie. If such a state of affairs is declared in existance by the LDS church at some point or Mormon fundamentalists believe themselves to be a Theocracy, does the theology not then excuse Human Sacrifice?
If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser. I hope I am mistaken, for the few Mormons I met seemed quite nice and I would hate for them to be saddled with the metaphysical baggage here described.

Unlike some of my other post I’m going to use our own scriptures to explain how we understand these very important questions.

Part of this is coming to an understanding of the word Elohim or “Gods”. We use it more like Godhood, it’s a club to belong to and all of its members are of one purpose. The word El is God the Father’s Hebrew name, He is the Father of Spirits. The spirit Yahweh and Jesus the man are one and the same. The angels are the spirit children of God the Father, you and I.

1, If Jesus is just another of the pre-existent spirits, even if the eldest, then his sacrifice could have been done by anyone. Would other human sacrifices then not also be propitiary, especially if we borrow Old Testament concepts like Sin Offering?

Jesus was not ‘just another’ pre-existent spirit nor just another human.

Rev 3
14 …..These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Heb 1
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Ps 89
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord/Yahweh : thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the holy ones.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of El can be likened unto the Lord?
7 God/El is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the holy ones, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

Yahweh/Jesus is the firstborn of spirits, that doesn’t mean he was created from nothing but he was first of the eternal and self-existing intelligences to be clothed in pure spirit matter.

Abraham 3
“19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

We all have varying degrees of intelligent and light within us. Yahweh was chosen to be the firstborn precisely because; “ And there stood one among them that was like unto God”, he was already like God.

How so?

In Ps 110 & Heb 5 it talks about Yahweh/Jesus being after “the order of Melchisedec” This is away of describing the power which God has, God has power and he gives that power to others;

“That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness” D&C 121

In Heb 1 there is this;
“8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity…

You and I are not righteous, our intelligences have weaknesses, we have some darkness in us. Yahweh was and is eternally righteous and so has always been qualified to be God and control the powers of God.

There was at some point before the creation of the physical earth a formal ordination.

“9 ….therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Jesus said; “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” Matt 28

With all power given to Him he was God or part of the Godhood. Under the direction of El the Father Yahweh created the physical world from the dust of the universe thus he is the Father of Heaven and Earth. He also bears the titles of LORD God, Lord of Host .

Plus because of his great love for us He volunteered to be the mediator between mankind and El, to be the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8

Alma 42:15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

None of the other sons of God could have accomplished the sacred task of bringing about our salvation because non other was perfectly righteous.

I hope I have answer your first question.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
6,771
Midwest
✟128,057.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I remember some of the information that disappeared.
Mormonism: Heavenly Father earned his godhood through obedience to laws and ordinances.

(1-3) He Experienced Conditions Similar to Our Own and Advanced Step by Step

“Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. “Is this really possible?” Why, my dear friends, how would you like to be governed by a ruler who has not been through all the vicissitudes of life that are common to us mortals? If he had not suffered, how could he sympathize with the distress of others? If he himself had not endured the same, how could he sympathize and be touched with the feelings of our infirmities? He could not, unless he himself had passed through the same ordeal, overcome, and overcome step by step.” (Orson Hyde in JD, 1:123.)

GOD IS NOW AN EXALTED MAN WITH POWERS OF ETERNAL INCREASE
(1-4) Our Father in Heaven Lives in an Exalted Marriage Relationship


“No matter to what heights God has attained or may attain, he does not stand alone; for side by side with him, in all her glory, a glory like unto his, stands a companion, the Mother of his children. For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother.” (Melvin J. Ballard, as quoted in Bryant S. Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, pp. 205-6.)
Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, p. 129


The conflict that took place in the premortal life among the spirit children of God.

  • Those who followed God kept their first estate, came to earth, and received bodies:Abr. 3:26
Taken from LDS Guide to the Scriptures
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
6,771
Midwest
✟128,057.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Alma 42:15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

Contradicted by:
Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,042
116
✟107,821.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Alma 42:15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

Contradicted by:
Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
No contradiction. God is perfectly merciful and perfect fully just.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
6,771
Midwest
✟128,057.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
"Every blessing we receive is an act of mercy, more than we could ever merit on our own."
lds topics

Contradicted by:
Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.[/QUOTE]

“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life” (Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42).

“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned” (Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p.56).
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
72
Salem Ut
✟184,049.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I’m going to skip question 2 for a moment;

3,If God didn't take sin upon himself, isn't this just sadistic cruelty to one of his sons? As sin is something that brings distance between us and God, why would it be forgiven through the torture of a separate entity from the Father?

As I said God the Father of spirits choose Yahweh/Jesus because of his eternal righteousness, he anointed him God and gave him the power to create.

As the creator of the earth He is God and Father of it.

4, Without a Trinity, how does Atonement occur ….

Don’t need the Trinity, Yahweh is the God and Father of this earth.

Alma 34:14
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

I’m going to use Alma 42 to explain how we view the atonement.

“But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed…justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed,”

For every sin committed there is a punishment attached, this is an eternal law. There is also

“….a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth….

“For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.”

So we are in this dug of war between mercy and justice, as much as God wanted to save us he will not break his own laws of justice.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

5, Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Gethsemane is the important part of the Passion narrative? Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?

Starting at the point of entering the Garden until he gave up the Ghost and his blood fell to the ground Jesus Christ was suffering various aspects of the atonement.

Ps 51:17
“ For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart…”

2 Cor 7: 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

As Jesus entered the Garden it says “ 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: Mark 14

In Isa 53 it says
“ He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief ….Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:… because he hath poured out his soul unto death”

In three different phases Jesus experiences this pouring “out of his soul unto death”.

Luke 22:44
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

In our D&C 19 the Lord explains;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

This is a sermon given by Elder Bruce R. McConkie
“..Two thousand years ago, outside Jerusalem’s walls, there was a pleasant garden spot, Gethsemane by name,….We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane.

We know He sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as He drained the dregs of that bitter cup His Father had given Him.

We know He suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death.

We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, His suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in His holy name.

We know that He lay prostrate upon the ground as the pains and agonies of an infinite burden caused Him to tremble and would that He might not drink the bitter cup.
We know that an angel came from the courts of glory to strengthen Him in His ordeal, and we suppose it was mighty Michael, who foremost fell that mortal man might be.

As near as we can judge, these infinite agonies—this suffering beyond compare—continued for some three or four hours.”


Only a God could suffer as he suffered in the Garden.

After this Jesus went though a series of events which symbolize the different kinds of suffering we each go though; he was sold for thirty pieces of silver, betrayed, spit on, unjustly accused, imprisoned, whipped, mocked and then placed on the cross. His friends ran away from him and denied him, he had to watch his own mother suffer as she watched her son hang on the cross. All of this was done so that we could turn to him in our times of suffering.

Lot’s of men died on crosses but none were without sin as he was, as he hung on the cross he had this moment where he said;

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27

All of his life He had the influence of the Father with him but He had to suffer those last few moments alone on the cross to complete his infinite sacrifice.

I once heard that when the soldiers pierced his side “blood and water” spilled upon the ground is a sign of a major heart attack. His heart was literally broken;

“The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart…"
 
Upvote 0

GoodGRACEshus

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2016
430
423
Australia
✟25,269.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The other day a Mormon responded to a post of mine where I had said that the Trinity is required for Atonement to function properly. Unfortunately the thread in question was moved to a Christian-only area and the post deleted so I could never respond nor ask about it.

Essentially Mormonism holds to a Henotheistic plural gods theology with pre-existent souls.
In regards to Atonement, Mormonism sees Jesus' Crucifixion as the conclusion of a sin offering to expiate sin.

There are a number of problems herun out....
If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser. I hope I am mistaken, for the few Mormons I met seemed quite nice and I would hate for them to be saddled with the metaphysical baggage here described.


I'm sorry, but I can't get passed you not being welcome in the Christians Only threads
Are not Protestants also Christian? Not trying to derail or confuse the issue, just had to ask.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I'm sorry, but I can't get passed you not being welcome in the Christians Only threads
Are not Protestants also Christian? Not trying to derail or confuse the issue, just had to ask.
No, I continued to post in that thread. The Mormon was no longer welcome to respond so I couldn't ask about his views in that thread, as I could post and he could not. The problem was that the Mormon was excluded from the discussion, not that I was.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GoodGRACEshus
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
LDS are not Protestants.
I am not LDS. I belong to a Reformed denomination. I just wanted to know what Mormonism said on the matter as it seemed a bit odd to me, hence my questions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GoodGRACEshus
Upvote 0

GoodGRACEshus

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2016
430
423
Australia
✟25,269.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
No, I continued to post in that thread. The Mormon was no longer welcome to respond so I couldn't ask about his views in that thread, as I could post and he could not. The problem was that the Mormon was excluded from the discussion, not that I was.

Thanks Quid I really appreciate you explaining....feel a tad silly now but hey not the first time.
I had another email response telling me LDS were not Christian....Ha!
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
If the state of affairs are as Mormonism describes, then I can only conclude the Mormon Father is a cruel sadistic tyrant, torturing one child to teach the others a lesson, and this child is so deluded he is like a battered wife returning to his abuser.

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. I never viewed it that way. Can you explain?

I seem to have lost part of this reply!:scratch:
If the Father is having a son tortured to teach the rest a lesson or for some metaphysical end, this is my conclusion. It seemed as if arbitrarily choosing one of his many sons to torture, instead of taking the burden upon himself, this becomes an act of dominion instead of love. Further why it would be necessary to sacrifice the son in this manner makes little sense then as well.
But from what others have said here of Mormon belief, it is a bit more nuanced than this, although I am still perplexed on how Atonement is seen to function.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I’m going to skip question 2 for a moment;

3,If God didn't take sin upon himself, isn't this just sadistic cruelty to one of his sons? As sin is something that brings distance between us and God, why would it be forgiven through the torture of a separate entity from the Father?

As I said God the Father of spirits choose Yahweh/Jesus because of his eternal righteousness, he anointed him God and gave him the power to create.

As the creator of the earth He is God and Father of it.

4, Without a Trinity, how does Atonement occur ….

Don’t need the Trinity, Yahweh is the God and Father of this earth.

Alma 34:14
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

I’m going to use Alma 42 to explain how we view the atonement.

“But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed…justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed,”

For every sin committed there is a punishment attached, this is an eternal law. There is also

“….a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth….

“For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.”

So we are in this dug of war between mercy and justice, as much as God wanted to save us he will not break his own laws of justice.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

5, Why does Mormonism hold that the Garden of Gethsemane is the important part of the Passion narrative? Does this not conflict with their stated idea of the Crucifixion as a sin offering?

Starting at the point of entering the Garden until he gave up the Ghost and his blood fell to the ground Jesus Christ was suffering various aspects of the atonement.

Ps 51:17
“ For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart…”

2 Cor 7: 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

As Jesus entered the Garden it says “ 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: Mark 14

In Isa 53 it says
“ He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief ….Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:… because he hath poured out his soul unto death”

In three different phases Jesus experiences this pouring “out of his soul unto death”.

Luke 22:44
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

In our D&C 19 the Lord explains;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

This is a sermon given by Elder Bruce R. McConkie
“..Two thousand years ago, outside Jerusalem’s walls, there was a pleasant garden spot, Gethsemane by name,….We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane.

We know He sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as He drained the dregs of that bitter cup His Father had given Him.

We know He suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death.

We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, His suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in His holy name.

We know that He lay prostrate upon the ground as the pains and agonies of an infinite burden caused Him to tremble and would that He might not drink the bitter cup.
We know that an angel came from the courts of glory to strengthen Him in His ordeal, and we suppose it was mighty Michael, who foremost fell that mortal man might be.

As near as we can judge, these infinite agonies—this suffering beyond compare—continued for some three or four hours.”


Only a God could suffer as he suffered in the Garden.

After this Jesus went though a series of events which symbolize the different kinds of suffering we each go though; he was sold for thirty pieces of silver, betrayed, spit on, unjustly accused, imprisoned, whipped, mocked and then placed on the cross. His friends ran away from him and denied him, he had to watch his own mother suffer as she watched her son hang on the cross. All of this was done so that we could turn to him in our times of suffering.

Lot’s of men died on crosses but none were without sin as he was, as he hung on the cross he had this moment where he said;

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27

All of his life He had the influence of the Father with him but He had to suffer those last few moments alone on the cross to complete his infinite sacrifice.

I once heard that when the soldiers pierced his side “blood and water” spilled upon the ground is a sign of a major heart attack. His heart was literally broken;

“The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart…"
Thank you for taking the time to answer me.

So it seems you hold to a form of Satisfaction Atonement like held by Anselm? That to maintain justice there must be retribution?
The difference is that in the standard Christian conception it would be God maintaining His Justice upon himself, while here it would be a form of communal punishment. Or alternately as Jesus is God of the earth, is he atoning to himself? Is Atonement then not to the Father at all?

I realise that you haven't finished answering yet though and often when you have less than the whole, a lot is missed.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I remember some of the information that disappeared.
Mormonism: Heavenly Father earned his godhood through obedience to laws and ordinances.

(1-3) He Experienced Conditions Similar to Our Own and Advanced Step by Step

“Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. “Is this really possible?” Why, my dear friends, how would you like to be governed by a ruler who has not been through all the vicissitudes of life that are common to us mortals? If he had not suffered, how could he sympathize with the distress of others? If he himself had not endured the same, how could he sympathize and be touched with the feelings of our infirmities? He could not, unless he himself had passed through the same ordeal, overcome, and overcome step by step.” (Orson Hyde in JD, 1:123.)

GOD IS NOW AN EXALTED MAN WITH POWERS OF ETERNAL INCREASE
(1-4) Our Father in Heaven Lives in an Exalted Marriage Relationship


“No matter to what heights God has attained or may attain, he does not stand alone; for side by side with him, in all her glory, a glory like unto his, stands a companion, the Mother of his children. For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother.” (Melvin J. Ballard, as quoted in Bryant S. Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, pp. 205-6.)
Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, p. 129


The conflict that took place in the premortal life among the spirit children of God.

  • Those who followed God kept their first estate, came to earth, and received bodies:Abr. 3:26
Taken from LDS Guide to the Scriptures
This seems to imply it could have been any son of the Father, which conflicts with @withwonderingawe 's contention that Jesus was special and almost like the Father. Especially seeing that Jesus was only anointed God after being chosen for the Atonement according to my understanding of what has been written in this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,042
116
✟107,821.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Thanks Quid I really appreciate you explaining....feel a tad silly now but hey not the first time.
I had another email response telling me LDS were not Christian....Ha!
LLDS do describe ourself as Christians. We worship the Father, Son, and Spirit. We acknowledge Christ as our savior, without whom we are nothing. We are His disciples.
The reason CF declares LDS to be "non-Christian" is because we believe that the Father/Son/Spirit are one God through unity, not through a shared substance.
 
Upvote 0