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Some Predestined to be Saved...others not

Confess

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I ran across a lady recently who had nearly as many children as I do. So of course we got to talking to each other. She was of a different denomination, but I forget what.

She told me that it is clear to her that two of her children were predestined to be saved but questions her other children's salvation.

I was shocked to hear that and nearly said to her, "If that is what you believe about God, then isn't it child abuse to have children if some of them were predestined to eternal hell rather than eternal life?"

Do the Calvins teach this doctrine?
 

bradfordl

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Do the Calvins teach this doctrine?
Depends on which Calvin. ;)

But seriously, no, at least not covenantal calvinists. I hold that the covenant is a promise to us "and to our children", and that the norm for faithful Christian parents is that their progeny are a part of the building of God's kingdom.

There are some baptists who call themselves calvinists who differ on that, but we pray for the scales to be removed from their eyes regularly. And you know who you are.... :wave:
 
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Elderone

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Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, paragraphs 3 - 7 teach concerning salvation, along with the Bible proof texts. As a Calvinist that is what I believe.

3:3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (Mat_25:41; 1Ti_5:21) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death (Pro_16:4; Rom_9:22, Rom_9:23; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:6).

3:4 These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished (Joh_13:18; 2Ti_2:19).

3:5 Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9, Eph_1:11; 1Th_5:9; 2Ti_1:9), out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9): and all to the praise of His glorious grace (Eph_1:6, Eph_1:12).

3:6 As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto (Eph_1:4, Eph_1:5; Eph_2:10; 2Th_2:13; 1Pe_1:2). Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ (1Th_5:9, 1Th_5:10; Tit_2:14), are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:5; 2Th_2:13), and kept by His power through faith unto salvation (1Pe_1:5). Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only (Joh_6:64, Joh_6:65; Joh_8:47; Joh_10:26; Joh_17:9; Rom_8:28-39; 1Jo_2:19).

3:7 The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice (Mat_11:25, Mat_11:26; Rom_9:17, Rom_9:18, Rom_9:21, Rom_9:22; 2Ti_2:19, 2Ti_2:20; 1Pe_2:8; Jud_1:4).
She told me that it is clear to her that two of her children were predestined to be saved but questions her other children's salvation.
I don't believe it is possible for anyone to categorically state who is and who isn't saved, except for themselves. To make guesses about others is foolishness.
 
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heymikey80

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She told me that it is clear to her that two of her children were predestined to be saved but questions her other children's salvation.

Do the Calvins teach this doctrine?
Well, a certain mr Hyper Calvin, ST, might :p.

Seriously, saying something this way is a statement in direct conflict with the Calvinistic Canons of Dordt:
the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included Dordt, Part 1, Article 17
To attribute their natural tendencies to their predestination is at odds with a half-dozen points of contact in the theology. People aren't predestined based on what they're like before they're saved.

Now, your acquaintance may have been commenting that from what she saw, she could tell some of her kids were just predestined to salvation, but others she couldn't tell. She may have been simply talking about what she saw of their salvation. But predestination is not something people wear on their sleeves. It's something God has in His mind. It's "not of him who wills or the one who runs, but of God Who shows mercy." Rom 9:16 We might see the results (and then only when God makes them clear). But we don't see predestination itself, and we don't will or work our predestination.
 
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J

jonas3

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But seriously, no, at least not covenantal calvinists. I hold that the covenant is a promise to us "and to our children", and that the norm for faithful Christian parents is that their progeny are a part of the building of God's kingdom.

heymikey80 said:
Seriously, saying something this way is a statement in direct conflict with the Calvinistic Canons of Dordt:
the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included Dordt, Part 1, Article 17

The HUGE problem with this belief is that it makes salvation conditioned on something other than the finished work of Christ alone. If the children of believers are automatically "holy" based simply on the fact that their parents are believers, then some people's salvation is based on their lineage. This is exactly what the Pharisees, etc, believed. They believed that because they were the children of Abraham they were saved; however, the apostle Paul in Galatians 3 clearly explains who the children of Abraham are, and it's not based upon one's lineage.

Furthermore, this belief stands in opposition to election. God said in Romans 9:10-13,

"10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Esau was an unsaved person, who had parents that were believers. God has elected His people before they were yet born, and their parents beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
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heymikey80

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This is going to delve into a number of specific points of Calvinist theology, so ... if you're reading based on wanting to know (this is "Ask a Calvinist") be prepared for a lot of subtle detail.
The HUGE problem with this belief is that it makes salvation conditioned on something other than the finished work of Christ alone.
Excuse me? This isn't the case. The covenant they are a part of is based entirely on the finished work of Christ, alone.
If the children of believers are automatically "holy" based simply on the fact that their parents are believers, then some people's salvation is based on their lineage.
Well, your reasoning has some problems to overcome. One problem with this conclusion is that holy people are not necessarily saved. Witness ... Jonas, the prophet to Nineveh. He was holy all right: so holy -- so "set apart" -- that he wanted to set himself as far apart from Nineveh as he could. Holiness is not such a direct indicator of salvation. With "Don't come near me! For I'm too holy for you," Isaiah describes a people who challenge the very holiness of God.

Another problem with this reasoning: people are set apart and holy in the New Covenant because of their familial relationships. That's simply an explicit, stated fact of the New Testament. Paul pointed out, "For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." 1 Cor 7:14 The children of believers are indeed holy because of their believing parent or parents. God said it. That settles it. It'd be great if everyone believed it.

Now, the Synod of Dordt does project this holiness onto the household covenant that God made with Abraham as well as with David and with us, pointing out that there's no warrant to doubt the ultimate election of children in our household who haven't reached a point where their actions would show the direction of their lives. That's true. We don't think small children are all condemned to Hell in their unawareness until they embrace Christ. We certainly don't believe such a thing. Do you? And if not, on what basis would you make that claim?
This is exactly what the Pharisees, etc, believed.
They also believed God was good. Should we stop believing that, because the Pharisees believed it?

Certainly the Pharisees were wrong in believing that lineage directly concluded their salvation (and I doubt seriously the Pharisees actually believed such a thing, btw). But they were not wrong in believing that the children of believers are holy. Paul again says, referring specifically to unbelieving Jews, "As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:28-29

Pharisees would not be wrong that the children of believers are specifically in view as regarding the covenant's promise, either -- that's what Peter said in Acts 2:39: "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
They believed that because they were the children of Abraham they were saved; however, the apostle Paul in Galatians 3 clearly explains who the children of Abraham are, and it's not based upon one's lineage.
This is accurate. It's just not pertinent. "What advantage does the Jew have over the Gentile? Much in every way." Rom 3:1ff "Theirs are the covenants ..." Rom 9:4ff, talking about the Jewish people, whom Paul laments do not believe in the main. So being parties to the covenant is indeed preferentially based on children in the households of believers. This isn't rejected by the New Testament (and I've quoted the New Testament to make this point). However, the New Testament makes it plain that the children of Abraham are children of the promise -- the promise to Abraham explicitly includes Gentiles way back in Genesis 22. So that expands the meaning of being a child of Abraham. But it doesn't remove Abraham's physical lineage from the bunch (cf. Rom 4 as well, which picks through this point in fine and subtle detail).

Being of the physical lineage of Abraham never was a direct implication of salvation. The Pharisees didn't really believe that, as their view of "tax collectors and sinners" demonstrates, both of whom included children of Abraham.
Furthermore, this belief stands in opposition to election. God said in Romans 9:10-13,

"10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Esau was an unsaved person, who had parents that were believers. God has elected His people before they were yet born, and their parents beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with it.
So Esau was not party to the covenant he so clearly was party to, because Esau was not chosen to salvation? I say, No. Esau was party to the covenant. If Esau were not saved as you say, then he fell from that covenant. If Esau were saved, then the choice God makes in 9:10-13 is not specifically salvation. =Shrug.= Either view is permissible. Paul isn't necessarily describing God's salvific/reprobative choices throughout Romans 9. Paul is describing the characteristics of God's choices in Romans 9. But even if Paul were describing the ultimate reprobation of Esau, no one denies Esau was party to the covenant through Abraham. Denying his covenant with God is one thing. Being in covenant with God is rather prerequisite to denying that covenant -- otherwise, covenantal denial would be logical and reasonable, because it would be the reality of the situation.
 
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Elect

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I ran across a lady recently who had nearly as many children as I do. So of course we got to talking to each other. She was of a different denomination, but I forget what.

She told me that it is clear to her that two of her children were predestined to be saved but questions her other children's salvation.

I was shocked to hear that and nearly said to her, "If that is what you believe about God, then isn't it child abuse to have children if some of them were predestined to eternal hell rather than eternal life?"

Do the Calvins teach this doctrine?

Isaac had this same problem.

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 
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DeaconDean

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There are some baptists who call themselves calvinists who differ on that, but we pray for the scales to be removed from their eyes regularly. And you know who you are.... :wave:

I'm a Baptist who believes in predestination and election, and just so happen to believe in most, though not all, but most of what Calvin taught in his "Institutes of Christian Religion." Are you gonna be so brazen as to include me in with those you typify as "baptist who call themselves calvinists"? My seminary education came from the Reformed POV. For I believe that the second greatest event (behind Jesus' manifestation, death and resurrection) in the history of the church was the reformation. My Bibles teaches me:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph 1:4,5

I don't know who is and isn't chosen to be the elect. And furthermore, I'd never be so brazen so as to offer an opinion as to who is and isn't the elect. But I do believe that God in the infinity past, chose, called, predestinated some to eternal life. Why? Because it suited His divine purpose. (Rom. 8:28) And because it suited Him to do so. (Eph. 1:5)

I don't believe it is possible for anyone to categorically state who is and who isn't saved, except for themselves. To make guesses about others is foolishness.

Exactly! My Bible tells me that we (the elect) were "chosen before the foundation of the world" (Rom. 8:28-29; Eph. 1:5). Who are we to say who is and who isn't chosen by God. Only the Father knows that. That is why we have the great commission:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." -Mt. 28:19-20

So that we can reach whomever His elect are.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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hopperace

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If I'm reading it correctly, I think another question in the OP is, "What's the deal with God's allowing reprobate to be born and walk around among us? What is a parent's responsibility (and God's) if children are deemed to be reprobate? Is it in some way abusive, and an evil itself, to allow for evil to continue, or to 'give birth' to it?

Some Calvinist's do teach "predestination" of the reprobate to "eternal hell" from before the foundation of the world, and this is a belief "about God".
There are a lot of nuances to such a discussion, and a lot of room for misunderstanding, but as has been already posted, it may suffice to say that God knows his own, and we're often hard pressed to know what He knows.

God is not the author of evil, though he remains sovereign over it, and allowing it to continue to be birthed simply gives glory to his plan for his elect.
 
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bradfordl

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Originally Posted by bradfordl
There are some baptists who call themselves calvinists who differ on that, but we pray for the scales to be removed from their eyes regularly. And you know who you are.... :wave:
I'm a Baptist who believes in predestination and election, and just so happen to believe in most, though not all, but most of what Calvin taught in his "Institutes of Christian Religion." Are you gonna be so brazen as to include me in with those you typify as "baptist who call themselves calvinists"?
:tutu:
My wording confused you. A better phrasing would have been, "There are calvinist baptists who differ with that....".

Does that ease your concern?

Word for the day-
Brazen:
  • audacious: unrestrained by convention or propriety; "an audacious trick to pull"; "a barefaced hypocrite"; "the most bodacious display of tourism this side of Anaheim"- Los Angeles Times; "bald-faced lies"; "brazen arrogance"; "the modern world with its quick material successes and insolent belief in the boundless possibilities of progress"- Bertrand Russell
  • face with defiance or impudence; "brazen it out"
  • made of or resembling brass (as in color or hardness)
 
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hopperace

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Thanks brad. Just for the record, Calvin was a Covenantal paedobaptist believing in baptising children of a believing parent as Children of the Covenant, but not all Calvinists today are. That term 'Calvinist' is a tough one to box around, even for a brazen Ciborium (*note avatar).
 
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TruthMiner

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I ran across a lady recently who had nearly as many children as I do. So of course we got to talking to each other. She was of a different denomination, but I forget what.

She told me that it is clear to her that two of her children were predestined to be saved but questions her other children's salvation.

I was shocked to hear that and nearly said to her, "If that is what you believe about God, then isn't it child abuse to have children if some of them were predestined to eternal hell rather than eternal life?"

Do the Calvins teach this doctrine?

On Judgment Day, according to Calvinism, many people will find out they were damned to Hell and there was never anything they could have done about it.
 
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heymikey80

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On Judgment Day, according to Calvinism, many people will find out they were damned to Hell and there was never anything they could have done about it.
God sends us to Hell based on what we do. You can do anything you want about it. Scripture itself states that you are unwilling to remain righteous in all your ways. Cf Romans 3:9-20. There's certainly something you can do about it. Follow the Law -- completely and entirely.

No one "was" damned to Hell. To Calvinists they were predestined to be damned to Hell because of their actions. You work for Hell. Heaven is a gift.

It's a constant error on the part of anti-Calvinists to declare God condemns people to Hell regardless of what they do. If they read the statements of Calvinists, they would discover God foreordains people not to receive His grace, and they are left to be condemned to Hell based on what they do or will.

They have every opportunity to change. They are simply unwilling . By the very nature of their wills God knows they refuse to change.
 
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Boxmaker

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I ran across a lady recently who had nearly as many children as I do. So of course we got to talking to each other. She was of a different denomination, but I forget what.

She told me that it is clear to her that two of her children were predestined to be saved but questions her other children's salvation.

I was shocked to hear that and nearly said to her, "If that is what you believe about God, then isn't it child abuse to have children if some of them were predestined to eternal hell rather than eternal life?"

Do the Calvins teach this doctrine?
In generl, yes they do. Calvinist hold that salvation was predestined before thefoundation of the world was laid. They further hold that all your actions in life, all that happens to you and your children were also predestined by God before the foundations of Earth were laid.

A child will be predestined to be saved or not as well as being predestined to reach adulthood or not.
 
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Boxmaker

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God sends us to Hell based on what we do. You can do anything you want about it. Scripture itself states that you are unwilling to remain righteous in all your ways. Cf Romans 3:9-20. There's certainly something you can do about it. Follow the Law -- completely and entirely.
Better spend a little more time in Galations if you truely believe that salvation lies in following the law...
 
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strengthinweakness

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Better spend a little more time in Galations if you truely believe that salvation lies in following the law...
Boxmaker, read heymikey's post again, carefully, and consider what we all know about sinful human beings.... The implication is clear in his post that none of us can follow the Law, "completely and entirely." If we could, then that would be a way of attaining salvation. As we cannot though, trusting in Christ's righteousness (which is imputed to lost sinners when they turn to Him and repent) is the one and only way of salvation.
 
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Elisha1961

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God is omniscient (sorry forgot how to spell) He knows all...predestination was explained to me one time as a pile of leaves and God picked up a random handful and said you are saved, the rest of you are going to hell. This was a Christian Reformed Pastor I cried for days, I was an impressionable kid. That is not Predestination. God can see past present and future before He even made us He does not exist in time. Scripture says that some pots are made to be destroyed. A hard one to accept. Are all destined to Hell who are not Chosen like that leaf pile...I can"t believe that God's Word states that He wishes all to be saved. BUT I do believe He has chosen some for greater things than others. Higher callings than others and gives them special dispensation to become that. I get into a lot of trouble from my Christian friends when I say I believe in predestination. Have lost friends over it because of preconcieved notions.
 
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bradfordl

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God is omniscient (sorry forgot how to spell) He knows all...predestination was explained to me one time as a pile of leaves and God picked up a random handful and said you are saved, the rest of you are going to hell. This was a Christian Reformed Pastor I cried for days, I was an impressionable kid. That is not Predestination. God can see past present and future before He even made us He does not exist in time. Scripture says that some pots are made to be destroyed. A hard one to accept. Are all destined to Hell who are not Chosen like that leaf pile...I can"t believe that God's Word states that He wishes all to be saved. BUT I do believe He has chosen some for greater things than others. Higher callings than others and gives them special dispensation to become that. I get into a lot of trouble from my Christian friends when I say I believe in predestination. Have lost friends over it because of preconcieved notions.
Maybe more like two piles? One of pots He fashioned for destruction, and the other of pots He fashioned for mercy? Doth not the potter have power over the clay.... ?
 
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Boxmaker

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Boxmaker, read heymikey's post again, carefully, and consider what we all know about sinful human beings.... The implication is clear in his post that none of us can follow the Law, "completely and entirely." If we could, then that would be a way of attaining salvation. As we cannot though, trusting in Christ's righteousness (which is imputed to lost sinners when they turn to Him and repent) is the one and only way of salvation.
Why can't we follow the law perfectly (at least some of us) since God preordains all of our thoughts and actions?
 
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Elisha1961

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That is the thing about scripture depends where you are reading like trying to explain the Trinity...some of it you have to accept with out 100% understanding. Our nature is sinful. We are all born evil...no amount of trying to be good will take that a way. One of the places in the gospels John the Baptist says that The Son of Man who comes to take away the SIN of the world. Singular. THat is our evil core nature. Ephesians says that For by Grace you have been saved through faith and not of yourselves it is the gift of God and not as a result of works lest any man should boast. God created Pharoah He would have loved for him to believe but Pharoah chose to go away from God's plan and desires...we make our own choices, so did He...did God help him along the path he chose? I believe so. Why? Because the Jews are His chosen people, they are part of His ultimate plan. He will never totally turn His back on those He has chosen. Who knows the mind of the Potter? I fought this truth for a long time. But with God's help I embrace it. I have chosen to follow Jesus each choice I make in that direction God supplies the grace to make it happen. Sometimes when I know He is asking something of me that I just can not do, I ask Him to make me willing and He does. I believe anyone can ask that of God and He will answer.

I do not believe God preordains the thoughts and actions of everyone. That goes against our free will. Lucifer had free will as do all the angels. He made the choice to fight God. He was created perfect. And he goofed badly. How can we ever hope to do it on our own. Tell me you never make mistakes, get angry, treat others unfairly, think bad thoughts? I do. I am a sinner who is helpless and useless with out God.
 
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