Some people wake up before Death.

I see. That's reasonable enough, but I do not think that prevents the possibility of agreement.

I agree that we should strive after making our salvation certain, but I also believe that it is possible for someone to believe that he or she is a Christian, when he or she is in fact not, either due to not knowing what it is to be a Christian, or through an elaborate self or social deception.

I would say that we should always strive to be believe beyond all doubt, but even if for a time we feel that we have no doubt we should continue to read and to strive to ensure that we haven't missed something and that we haven't gotten something wrong, because it is always possible that we have, or that our tradition has.

And so what I am saying is that we shouldn't use, "I know that I am saved even though I have not yet been baptized, therefore the scripture must not really mean that I must be baptized," as an argument against the reading of John 3:5 that those who are saved are only those who are baptized. I believe that to do so is to place human intuition over Biblical authority.

This is not to say that I am certain that John 3:5 requires baptism. There are other arguments for the interpretation that it does not, and the link you gave presented one of those other arguments as well.

My point then is just that of the two forms of argument presented at the link for the interpretation that John 3:5 does not require baptism, one I believe is invalid because it relies on the psychological certainty of salvation (human intuition), and the other I did not think was conclusive, and the author of that document seemed to think he did not need to rely on it being conclusive because of his first argument.

So we could come to agreement, but it would have to be based on the interpretation of John 3:5 only on biblical terms, I want to say - the second argument.

Do you know what I mean?

Sign Of The Fish said:

So you are saying that when God said to teh theif that "you will be with me" that he was cast into hell? I dont buy that Im sorry...
Remeber, Christ had all the authority of God to grant forgivness. He might not have said the sinners prayer... but he believed and confessed with his mouth... the two stipulations.
Again, Christ had full authority.. he told the woman at the well that her sins were forgiven... He is above the law that he put in place.

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No I am not saying he went to hell, I am saying he didn't go to Heaven. No-one went to Heaven before the cross, he went to Sheol, Abraham's Bossom <sic>. As in the story of Lazurus and the rich man. The same place Christ went. The Bible is clear that Christ did not ascend to heaven upon death he told them "do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to my Father". Is the thief in heaven now? Yes I believe he is, but on that day he was in Paradise, one of two compartments in Sheol. No-one went to Heaven before Christ died. Christ said very specifically "No man has seen the Father". Sins forgiven, yes, just as if they had offered sacrifices for their sins. They went to the same place the David, Solomon, Abraham, Moses and the rest of the patriarchs went, which is not heaven. Paradise in this context did not mean heaven.

"So you are saying that when God said to teh theif that "you will be with me" that he was cast into hell? I dont buy that Im sorry..."

But you shouldn't base that on, "I don't buy that." Perhaps God can make exceptions, such as also for those before the incarnation. I am not one to say that he can not. Or they could all be "cast into hell." I don't think we can say. I try to be extremely wary of supposing that my own moral intuition accords with the dictates and secret functioning of God, because so often it seems certain that it does not.

The thief could have been baptized before, for all that we know. The thief may not have been yet under baptism as part of the prescribed corollaries of salvation. The thief may have been baptized where it was he was going. I don't know.

But if what seems to be the prescribed means that we in this time may be saved specifies baptism as a corollary of salvation, we should not be eager to discount that.

It may be that the relevant passages do not specify baptism as a corollary of salvation, but if they do not, we should not rely on human moral intuition to decide that it "must not." It may!

Sign Of The Fish said:

God offers the gift of salvation. Men build rules to make it hard to attain...

Im not saying that being baptized isnt important... but is the act of baptist what saves you? I think not...

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"Men", by Men you mean Peter, the one who says how salvation has to be whether it be Acts 2:38 or eating a block of cheese while pouring salsa on your head.

Peter is the gatekeeper, and he only excepts all the right keys.

Aduro Amnis said:

So He accepted Christ as his Savior, Repented, Was baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost all before he died?

I don't sound to be insensitive but, alas if you die its your fault if your not saved.

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All Jesus claimed that was necessary for Salvation was stated during a sermon in Galilee in the Gospel according to Mark, Chapter 1, verse 15:

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

So, we have two requirements for Salvation:
1. True Repentance
2. True Belief in the Gospel

What is repentance? Turning your back on a sinful life and asking for forgiveness of your sinful nature and life by the blood of Jesus Christ.

What is the Gospel? As described by Paul in his first letter to the Church at Corinth:

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now...
I Corinthians 15:1-6

I think it's pretty clear to see that as long as you have a truly repentant heart and Spirit, and that you believe in your heart fully the Gospel of Jesus as described here by Paul and throughout the New Testament, then you are indeed Saved, no matter when it occurs or under what circumstances.

Yes, there are many times when people do "believe in vain" but that is not for us to judge or worry about. If we all did our duty as Disciplers of mankind, then there wouldn't be so much confusion as to what it means to be saved or how a Believer ought to think and act.

Evangelism has degraded into more of a numbers game of "converts" rather than investing our lives into others, guided by the Holy Spirit, making true disciples out of men.