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Some of my thoughts concerning "sin nature"

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holyrokker

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Ezekiel 18:19-20 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

The notions of inherited sin and inherited guilt are nowhere to be found in Jewish tradition. Neither is there any indication that these ideas were held in the Church prior to the 5th Century AD.
The doctrine of “Original Sin” originated with Aurelius Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, in North Africa. The central passage of Scripture for this doctrine is Romans 5:12
“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” (English Standard Version).

Notice that the passage says that death passed to all. It does not say that sin or that guilt passed to all men. This is an obvious reference Genesis 2:16-17
"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Adam did indeed die on the day of his disobedience, but his death was not physical; rather it was a spiritual death. Just as physical death is the separation of man's spirit from his body, so spiritual death is separation of man from God. It is the opposite of spiritual life, which is fellowship and communion with God.
Spiritual death is separation, alienation, from God. It is not something wrong inside of man, but a negative or wrong relationship between man and God. Spiritual death is like a barrier between man and God.

A careful interpretation of Romans 5:12 depends upon the Greek prepositional phrase eph hos. This phrase is made up of a preposition (epi) and a relative pronoun (hos).
The preposition has several different meanings depending upon the immediate context and the case of the noun or pronoun with which it occurs. Since the relative pronoun (hos) is in the dative case, it should be translated "on the ground of", "by reason of", "on the condition of", "because of".
The meaning of the relative pronoun depends upon its antecedent. In the Greek language the relative pronoun agrees with its antecedent in number and gender. Here the relative pronoun is singular in number but it may be either masculine or neuter in gender. In this passage, the Greek noun thanatos (death) is the nearest singular noun, making thanatos its logical antecedent.
In this scenario then, the prepositional phrase eph hos would be equivalent to epi thanatos (because of death). In that case, the phrase should be translated "because of which" or "upon which condition."
With this meaning given to the prepositional phrase, the whole clause may be translated "because of which all sinned" and interpreted to mean that all men sinned because of the death (spiritual) that of Adam.
What this means is that Adam sinned. The result of his sin was death (separation from God). Adam was subsequently driven from the Garden and banned fro the Tree of Life.

This has resulted in a "death sentence" upon all of humanity. All of mankind is born (physically) with a spiritual separation from God.

This idea is further developed in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in the third chapter of John. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5-6)

Here Jesus is telling Nicodemus that a spiritual birth is needed in order to have a right relationship with God, since mankind is born spiritually dead (separated from God).
Jesus is not saying that there is an inherent sinfulness to the physical birth; simply that a physical birth is not sufficient. Since God is Spirit, we must be born of the Spirit to have a relationship with Him.

After Adam sinned, God drove him from the Garden of Eden, and banned him from the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22-24 "Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a result, we also do not have access to the tree of life. When we are born, we are separated from God (spiritually).

That why Jesus said; "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' " (John 3:7)

Since we are born physically, not spiritually, we do not have the advantage of the Holy Spirit to direct our hearts and minds. We naturally do what the body desires.

Those desires aren't inherently sinful, though; just natural. (similar to animals?)

So when we begin to be aware of right and wrong, we are already accustomed to choosing whatever pleases the body (flesh).

If we get a sense that maybe giving into a particular desire is inappropriate in a certain instance, it's foreign to us.

That's why James can say:

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Once we've made a choice contrary to our conscience, we've sinned.

Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Once we've sinned, we are guilty, and condemned by our conscience, becoming slaves to sin.

Romans 6:15 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 6:19 For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
 
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silentthinker

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I would like to point out some things you may have over looked
this statement in Romans 5:12 is false


“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned”
  1. Not everybody sins some people die sinless like Jesus as in the case of children who die as infants in there cribs. So they therefore cannot be spiritually dead and alienated from God. The child does not have a negative or wrong relationship with God. The child does not need to be born again.
  2. Another way this passage is false is that it blames adam for something he did not do.It was not adams fault that death passed to all, because of the choice adam made. It was god fault that death passed to all because of this choice God made. God is the designer of his creation and he designed it so all men would inherit Adams spiritual death from parent to child at birth .
  3. He also chose to prevent the rest of his creation from haveing access to the tree of life.
  4. Sin did not come into this world through one man, sin was already in gods creation when lucifer sinned agiants God then God chose to cast lucifer down to earth.
"Those desires aren't inherently sinful, though; just natural."
What desires, the desire to reproduce?
Just thinking about acting on that natural desire outside of wedlock would be sinfull.

Are you saying someone could have a natural desire to steal and that desire is not a sinfull desire.

"What this means is that Adam sinned. The result of his sin was death (separation from God). Adam was subsequently driven from the Garden and banned fro the Tree of Life.
"This has resulted in a "death sentence" upon all of humanity. All of mankind is born (physically) with a spiritual separation from God.
Your attemting to divide death into two differant things witch would mean any child who dies as an infant in there crib are also dead spiritualy.
Why would god put a "death sentance" as you put it,on an innocent child.

So when Jesus says,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." this child i speak of WILL NOT enter the kingdom of God or jesus is not speaking truthfully.
 
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maybenotcrazy

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Silentthinker,
by that reasoning you could say einstein didn't discover relativity- god made him do it. Do you believe that? Or do you believe that You didn't post that but god did.

Also, the thief who was crucified next to jesus entered heaven without being baptised. I think we over interpret the water and the spirit. We are all born of water in the amniotic fluid. The spirit may or may not be given to us. When a baby dies if god intends for that baby to go to heaven it goes.

Also. Lucifer's first recorded sin was the temptation of eve. There is no other prior record of it. Lucifer caused sin to enter the world through adam and eve.
 
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BrotherHicks

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Ezekiel 18:19-20 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

The notions of inherited sin and inherited guilt are nowhere to be found in Jewish tradition. Neither is there any indication that these ideas were held in the Church prior to the 5th Century AD.
The doctrine of “Original Sin” originated with Aurelius Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, in North Africa. The central passage of Scripture for this doctrine is Romans 5:12
“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” (English Standard Version).

Notice that the passage says that death passed to all. It does not say that sin or that guilt passed to all men. This is an obvious reference Genesis 2:16-17
"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Adam did indeed die on the day of his disobedience, but his death was not physical; rather it was a spiritual death. Just as physical death is the separation of man's spirit from his body, so spiritual death is separation of man from God. It is the opposite of spiritual life, which is fellowship and communion with God.
Spiritual death is separation, alienation, from God. It is not something wrong inside of man, but a negative or wrong relationship between man and God. Spiritual death is like a barrier between man and God.

A careful interpretation of Romans 5:12 depends upon the Greek prepositional phrase eph hos. This phrase is made up of a preposition (epi) and a relative pronoun (hos).
The preposition has several different meanings depending upon the immediate context and the case of the noun or pronoun with which it occurs. Since the relative pronoun (hos) is in the dative case, it should be translated "on the ground of", "by reason of", "on the condition of", "because of".
The meaning of the relative pronoun depends upon its antecedent. In the Greek language the relative pronoun agrees with its antecedent in number and gender. Here the relative pronoun is singular in number but it may be either masculine or neuter in gender. In this passage, the Greek noun thanatos (death) is the nearest singular noun, making thanatos its logical antecedent.
In this scenario then, the prepositional phrase eph hos would be equivalent to epi thanatos (because of death). In that case, the phrase should be translated "because of which" or "upon which condition."
With this meaning given to the prepositional phrase, the whole clause may be translated "because of which all sinned" and interpreted to mean that all men sinned because of the death (spiritual) that of Adam.
What this means is that Adam sinned. The result of his sin was death (separation from God). Adam was subsequently driven from the Garden and banned fro the Tree of Life.

This has resulted in a "death sentence" upon all of humanity. All of mankind is born (physically) with a spiritual separation from God.

This idea is further developed in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in the third chapter of John. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5-6)

Here Jesus is telling Nicodemus that a spiritual birth is needed in order to have a right relationship with God, since mankind is born spiritually dead (separated from God).
Jesus is not saying that there is an inherent sinfulness to the physical birth; simply that a physical birth is not sufficient. Since God is Spirit, we must be born of the Spirit to have a relationship with Him.

After Adam sinned, God drove him from the Garden of Eden, and banned him from the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22-24 "Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a result, we also do not have access to the tree of life. When we are born, we are separated from God (spiritually).

That why Jesus said; "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' " (John 3:7)

Since we are born physically, not spiritually, we do not have the advantage of the Holy Spirit to direct our hearts and minds. We naturally do what the body desires.

Those desires aren't inherently sinful, though; just natural. (similar to animals?)

So when we begin to be aware of right and wrong, we are already accustomed to choosing whatever pleases the body (flesh).

If we get a sense that maybe giving into a particular desire is inappropriate in a certain instance, it's foreign to us.

That's why James can say:

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Once we've made a choice contrary to our conscience, we've sinned.

Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Once we've sinned, we are guilty, and condemned by our conscience, becoming slaves to sin.

Romans 6:15 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 6:19 For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Excellent post!
 
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jesse a

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If we were not born with a sinful nature it would be possible for us to work our way into heaven by not sinning. We know that this is an utter impossibility and we all fall short of the Glory of God. One only has to look at the world to realize the total depravity of our human nature.
 
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holyrokker

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If we were not born with a sinful nature it would be possible for us to work our way into heaven by not sinning. We know that this is an utter impossibility and we all fall short of the Glory of God. One only has to look at the world to realize the total depravity of our human nature.
What do you mean by "work our way to heaven"?
Do you really think anyone will "be in heaven" who does not have a right relationship with the Father?
Being born with a sinful nature is contrary to Scripture, so the doctrine must be false.
What IS true is that EVERYONE sins.
 
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