Some interesting responses from non-Christians to YEC teaching

Vance · Nov 10, 2003

On the science forum, I posted a thread asking non-Christians what effect the discussions of origins have had on their beliefs about Christianity. Here are a few of the responses so far:

"The presentation and justification of TE views has actually made me more likely to consider Christianity as a worldview as it has removed the scientific obstacles to my belief. The presentation of YEC beliefs would have done much to drive me further away without the TEs on hand with the alternative."

"Hi Vance- I am an ex-Christian. I am an EX BECAUSE of YEC. I have [since] learned to seperate Christianity from YEC. I have a whole new respect for Christianity after reading posts from people like you and Lucaspa."

"My first-run-in with fundamentalists was a long time before I got into these debates, and it was that early experience that shook my respect for Christianity. The more I come across fundamentalists, the more I have to remind myself that there's a lot in Christianity that can still be respected."

As another poster (a Christian) pointed out after reading these comments, "by their fruit shall you know them". the fruit of the teaching will tell: A proper teaching, or at least approach to the subject, will bring good fruit, a bad approach will bring bad fruit.

The approach which equates YEC theology with core Christian concepts and equates a disbelief in YEC'ism with a disbelief in Scripture can only yield bad fruit in the end.

Vance · Nov 11, 2003

And another from a different thread:

"The problem with Hovind and his ilk is that they end up convincing people like me that to believe evolution is to be an atheist. In fact the only reason I'm agnostic is because so much of what I've heard was wrong that I have to look at the basis for my beliefs and prove each one all over again. You see I grew up in one of those churches where it was always spouted that evolution is wrong and that theology disagrees with it, then I was introduced to micro-evolution by some people, this made me think for a few seconds and realize that by accepting micro-evolution you must accept the premise that macro-evolution is possible. This threw my theology in to doubt, and so I became an atheist, which lead me to forums, which showed me that theology and evolution don't have to be in conflict."

This really has to stop. We can only imagine whether this fellow will find his way back to faith after the YEC teaching destroyed it. And, even worse, we can only imagine how many have been lost and are not even seeking anymore like this one.

Dutchunter · Nov 11, 2003

And AIG quotes people all the time who have come to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour BECAUSE of their efforts.

It has now been proven that you do not nor have you read AIG's Magazines etc, as well as what other YEC groups have to offer. If you had, you'd know this.

troodon · Nov 11, 2003

Dutchunter said:
And AIG quotes people all the time who have come to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour BECAUSE of their efforts.

It has now been proven that you do not nor have you read AIG's Magazines etc, as well as what other YEC groups have to offer. If you had, you'd know this.

Yes, of course! AiG doesn't post the good stuff on their website. If you want to see evolution falsified you have to subscribe to their (paid?) magazine!

Ingenious!

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

Cute....but a stupid comment. It doesn't even relate to what is being discussed here.

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

Again, Dutch, I have read more of AIG than you have, almost guaranteed. And ICR. And Dr. Dino.

The question is to what extent you have read up on an old earth and evolution from anything other than the textbooks in your school (admittedly poor) and the YEC websites.

If that is the extent of your honest investigation into the subject, this falls woefully short. Trying to learn about the true facts of evolution and an old earth from AIG is like trying to learn about Christianity from an atheistic site.

Sinai · Nov 12, 2003

Thanks, Vance, for all you do to try to educate folks that it's not the Bible that claims that the universe is only a few thousand years old, but rather is merely some folks' interpretation of what the Bible says. Again, I have no problem with their choosing that interpretation (and will defend their right to do so), but I do have a problem with their insistance that their interpretation is the only valid one--despite overwhelming evidence (both scientific and biblical) to the contrary.

The primary reasons I spend as much time as I do on this issue are:
1. The obstacles this issue has caused in trying to witness to others; and
2. The joy that many Christians experience when the burdens imposed by our fundamentalist YEC friends are removed and they learn what the scriptures actually say.

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

Well put.

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

Vance said:
Again, Dutch, I have read more of AIG than you have, almost guaranteed. And ICR. And Dr. Dino.

The question is to what extent you have read up on an old earth and evolution from anything other than the textbooks in your school (admittedly poor) and the YEC websites.

If that is the extent of your honest investigation into the subject, this falls woefully short. Trying to learn about the true facts of evolution and an old earth from AIG is like trying to learn about Christianity from an atheistic site.

No you have not read more than me. If you had you wouldn't take your time to post such nonsense such as YEC and AIG types are doing damage to our faith.

No that is not the extent of it. And you should know better- plenty of evolutionists- highly educated unlike myself so you seem to think- have switched sides.

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

Sinai said:
Thanks, Vance, for all you do to try to educate folks that it's not the Bible that claims that the universe is only a few thousand years old, but rather is merely some folks' interpretation of what the Bible says. Again, I have no problem with their choosing that interpretation (and will defend their right to do so), but I do have a problem with their insistance that their interpretation is the only valid one--despite overwhelming evidence (both scientific and biblical) to the contrary.

The primary reasons I spend as much time as I do on this issue are:
1. The obstacles this issue has caused in trying to witness to others; and
2. The joy that many Christians experience when the burdens imposed by our fundamentalist YEC friends are removed and they learn what the scriptures actually say.

This is the same nonsense posted by Vance. The number of those thanking AIG and the number of stories of those who's lives have been changed by AIG- leading them to the gift of Salvation- is awesome to read about.

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

Well, sure, when you are picking and choosing the testimonials, it can look very one-sided. I wonder how many letters and emails they get to the contrary? We will never know.

And, yes, I have most of the AIG stuff and find it entirely and utterly unconvincing.

Again, how much have you researched these issues from sources OTHER than AIG or other YEC sites?

I have read both thoroughly. If you can not say the same, then you are in exactly the same position of the person trying to learn Christianity from atheist sites: you will get a distorted view.

Do you really think that AIG will tell you the facts that contradict their theories? Do you think they will truly give you both sides of the argument? If you do, you are putting your head in the sand.

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

Unlike your one-sided slant of things and even going so far as to say YEC's such as AIG are doing damage to our faith, right? Again, you wouldn't have said such utter nonsense had you indeed have read or been reading AIG material. I've already stated it's not just myself who's gotten the other side shoved down my throat for years.

AIG is an awesome witnessing tool.

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

So, you are calling me a liar?

Do you know how many people I have seen lose their faith due to YEC teaching?

Do you know how many people I have witnessed to who would not listen to me because they equated Christianity with YEC teaching?

Listen, if you want to debate legitimate points about the theory of YEC'ism vs. other interpretations of Genesis, go right ahead, but it does nothing to further the discussion simply to come here and make the conclusory and unsupported blastings you are making right now.

Come back with a point to debate.

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

Vance said:
So, you are calling me a liar?

Do you know how many people I have seen lose their faith due to YEC teaching?

Do you know how many people I have witnessed to who would not listen to me because they equated Christianity with YEC teaching?

Listen, if you want to debate legitimate points about the theory of YEC'ism vs. other interpretations of Genesis, go right ahead, but it does nothing to further the discussion simply to come here and make the conclusory and unsupported blastings you are making right now.

Come back with a point to debate.

Liar? Misinforming people and scaring them into believing YEC's are damaging our faith is pretty sad, to say the least. Do you know how many people have come to know Christ thru AIG? Do you know how many lost their faith or they brushed off our faith because of their belief in evolution?

You really need to look in the mirror. YOU are the one who started this thread. YOU are the one made unsupported blastings of YEC's and started a discussion NOT on legitimate points about EITHER YEC or other interpretations of Genesis.

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

Ah, but you don't know how many have lost their faith due to YEC teaching, either.

My point throughout this entire forum has been one thing:

It is dangerous and unecessary to tie a belief in the true Message of God's Salvation to a belief in YEC'ism. If it places a stumbling block in the way of the Message for ANYONE then it is dangerous.

That is a wholly true statement whether you believe in YEC'ism or not.

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

Vance said:
Ah, but you don't know how many have lost their faith due to YEC teaching, either.

My point throughout this entire forum has been one thing:

It is dangerous and unecessary to tie a belief in the true Message of God's Salvation to a belief in YEC'ism. If it places a stumbling block in the way of the Message for ANYONE then it is dangerous.

That is a wholly true statement whether you believe in YEC'ism or not.

Absolutely wrong. Not only that, but you could also say the same about evolution, as I just pointed out. So many lose their faith or reject our faith because of their heads being filled with evolutionary teachings.

Let me repeat.....You really need to look in the mirror. YOU are the one who started this thread. YOU are the one made unsupported blastings of YEC's and started a discussion NOT on legitimate points about EITHER YEC or other interpretations of Genesis.

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

The only reason anyone would lose their faith upon learning about evolution is if they also believe that it is incompatible with Christianity. This is not the case, but if YEC's keep telling them that it IS the case, then they will believe it and lose their faith. It is not the teaching of evolution that is the problem, it is the teaching that if you believe evolution, you do not believe Scripture that is the problem.

And yes, this is a legitimate subject for this forum.

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

And you have no evidence of that either. In fact if you reread what I've been saying you should be able to figure out that these people GREW UP with evolution and didn't change until AFTER their encounters with AIG and others. They were already lost before they ever were "told" about the message of Christ thru AIG's ministries.

And if this is a legitmate subject for this forum....then don't lecture to me about debating legitimate points on the YEC and "other's".

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

Of course people can be lost without hearing AIG's points, that is just silly. The point is that they can also be lost FROM hearing AIG's arguments. I have seen it happen, and I posted examples of it happening.

Again, my point is, and has always been: DON'T evangelize that a belief in evolution is necessarily contrary to Scripture.

There is simply no reason to do so and it can cause many to lose their faith. Also, all those who came to Christ from reading AIG stuff can just as quickly leave their Faith upon learning that it is all bunk. Which is my point: we should not tie our faith to a particular interpretation of Genesis and approach to origins.

Unecessary and dangerous.

Dutchunter · Nov 12, 2003

Your own words: The only reason anyone would lose their faith upon learning about evolution is if they also believe that it is incompatible with Christianity. This is not the case, but if YEC's keep telling them that it IS the case, then they will believe it and lose their faith. It is not the teaching of evolution that is the problem, it is the teaching that if you believe evolution, you do not believe Scripture that is the problem.

Now reread mine: And you have no evidence of that either. In fact if you reread what I've been saying you should be able to figure out that these people GREW UP with evolution and didn't change until AFTER their encounters with AIG and others. They were already lost before they ever were "told" about the message of Christ thru AIG's ministries.

To respond to your last paragraph- that is a bunch of bunk. And you have no proof to back up your statement. Tie that together with how you started this thread and you are all over the map now because you were so one-sided.

And if this is a legitmate subject for this forum....then don't lecture to me about debating legitimate points on the YEC and "other's".

Some interesting responses from non-Christians to YEC teaching

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