Some information about Calvin

[rturner76]

I was doing some research about Calvinism trying to really understand this religon and I came across some stuff that shocked me. I'm surprised he has so many followers since Christ preached against killing and all.

Of crimes against humanity: 1531 John Calvin 1000s of religious nonconformists are killed and witches burned after John Calvin (1509-1564) turns Geneva into religious police state.
Of murder : (1553) That John Calvin, the "Protestant Pope" of Geneva did order Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake for heresy.
Of murder: (1531) Jacques Gruet Calvin orders beheading of Jacques Gruet for blasphemy.

Just a couple things I saw, there was a ton of terrorizing in Geneva. I'm sick, I thought he was a good preacher and was reading his stuff like he was a man of God.

 

[WinBySurrender]

I was doing some research about Calvinism trying to really understand this religon and I came across some stuff that shocked me. I'm surprised he has so many followers since Christ preached against killing and all.

Of crimes against humanity: 1531 John Calvin 1000s of religious nonconformists are killed and witches burned after John Calvin (1509-1564) turns Geneva into religious police state.
Of murder : (1553) That John Calvin, the "Protestant Pope" of Geneva did order Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake for heresy.
Of murder: (1531) Jacques Gruet Calvin orders beheading of Jacques Gruet for blasphemy.

Just a couple things I saw, there was a ton of terrorizing in Geneva. I'm sick, I thought he was a good preacher and was reading his stuff like he was a man of God.

I don't know where that came from, but Calvin couldn't have had a hand in the death of thousands because, frankly, there were nowhere near that many people executed for heresy, though I'd admit one is too many. He did have a major role in the trial and execution of Servetus, but I get the impression from historical accounts he was not enthusiastic about it, and he certainly wasn't going around denouncing anyone and demanding they be sent to the gallows or be burned to death. Might want to check this out:

John Calvin: The Tyrant Who Never Was

Pay particular attention to the links at the bottom of the article, and check them out.

 

[ebia]

I was doing some research about Calvinism trying to really understand this religon and I came across some stuff that shocked me. I'm surprised he has so many followers since Christ preached against killing and all.

Of crimes against humanity: 1531 John Calvin 1000s of religious nonconformists are killed and witches burned after John Calvin (1509-1564) turns Geneva into religious police state.
Of murder : (1553) That John Calvin, the "Protestant Pope" of Geneva did order Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake for heresy.
Of murder: (1531) Jacques Gruet Calvin orders beheading of Jacques Gruet for blasphemy.

Just a couple things I saw, there was a ton of terrorizing in Geneva. I'm sick, I thought he was a good preacher and was reading his stuff like he was a man of God.

Been reading some rabid anti-Protestant propaganda or something?

 

[Rick Otto]

I was doing some research about Calvinism trying to really understand this religon and I came across some stuff that shocked me. I'm surprised he has so many followers since Christ preached against killing and all.

Of crimes against humanity: 1531 John Calvin 1000s of religious nonconformists are killed and witches burned after John Calvin (1509-1564) turns Geneva into religious police state.
Of murder : (1553) That John Calvin, the "Protestant Pope" of Geneva did order Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake for heresy.
Of murder: (1531) Jacques Gruet Calvin orders beheading of Jacques Gruet for blasphemy.

Just a couple things I saw, there was a ton of terrorizing in Geneva. I'm sick, I thought he was a good preacher and was reading his stuff like he was a man of God.

God used this vicious criminal to deliver sound soteriology, not perfect ecclesiology. So I take exception to being called "Calvinist" for my affirming the T.U.L.I.P. and having the fact that I part ways with him on ecclesiology - especialy in the area of church discipline - ignored.
I would think that after having read the OT, one would be pretty shock-proof. I would also think that the over-reaction backlash of Geneva to Rome would pale by comparison to the excesses of pope's & their Inquisitions.
I was doing some research on Methodism trying to understand that religion & was "shocked" at their soteriology!
Didn't Christ preach forgiving & all, too? Shouldn't a man of God remember that?

 

[rturner76]

God used this vicious criminal to deliver sound soteriology, not perfect ecclesiology. So I take exception to being called "Calvinist" for my affirming the T.U.L.I.P. and having the fact that I part ways with him on ecclesiology - especialy in the area of church discipline - ignored.
I would think that after having read the OT, one would be pretty shock-proof. I would also think that the over-reaction backlash of Geneva to Rome would pale by comparison to the excesses of pope's & their Inquisitions.
I was doing some research on Methodism trying to understand that religion & was "shocked" at their soteriology!
Didn't Christ preach forgiving & all, too? Shouldn't a man of God remember that?

You are right on! I was under the impression that the reformation was largely because of the brutality of the Pope and the Overreaching arm of the church's brutality. I was just surprised a reformer would continue that brutality. My understanding was that non-violence has always been at the heart of Methodism but I could be wrong. I understand attacking Methodism though. I would want to deflect in any way I could if I was a follower of this man's religion also, yuk! I read he was a very gifted lawyer. And of course he's forgiven, unless he's not one of the elect! Hahaha Now that would be hilarious!

 

[hedrick]

Unfortunately the Reformers weren't primarily concerned with brutality. They were concerned with corruption and doctrinal problems. Non-violence hasn't been a characteristic of most mainstream Christianity, Protestant or Catholic. Some of the radical Reformation was non-violent, and that tradition continues in a few groups such as the Mennonites, but not all of the radical Reformers were non-violent. But the mainstream Reformers such as Luther and Calvin continued pretty much the same policies on the death penalty, war, and executing witches and heretics.

Protestants adopted freedom of religion only later, and of course eventually came to the conclusion that witchcraft didn't exist. Non-violence today is still the characteristic of a fairly small number of "peace churches." Many of the more liberal mainline churches have strong pacifist influences, but the churches aren't officially pacifist as a whole. However most do favor non-violent ways of solving problems, and tend to emphasize "peace-making."

The Renaissance period was in fact sort of a high point in concern about witches. And many of the most educated and otherwise enlightened people were most involved. Indeed the first mainstream publication saying that it was a mistake came from a member of the Inquisition, as I recall.

In fact Geneva tended to banish heretics, not kill them. If you look carefully I think you'll find a number of executions for witchcraft, but not heresy. Servetus was an exception, because he was particularly aggressive. Calvin was involved, but it actually happened at a time when Calvin was out of power. One obvious question is why Servetus came to Geneva in the first place. One theory is that he thought that with Calvin out of power he would be safe. He was wrong. Although he didn't control the proceedings, Calvin was used as an expert witness about theology. He did want Servetus killed, although not by burning, which he considered inhumane. Geneva consulted several other Reformed towns, and all said that Servetus should be killed.

This really can't be used in Protestant / Catholic or other interdenominational arguments. Pretty much everybody took the same approach on war, the death penalty, and witches. I agree that it's a serious blot on the Christian record. It's hard to understand how followers of Jesus could do some things that Christians did. But it's not fair to particularly accuse Calvin.

 

[rturner76]

I guess it all depends on who version of his-story is being told. It is good to show that it was common for all "church" people to be still practicing violence at that time. It puts it in better context than singling out Calvin as one violent man among a peaceful reformation. I'm glad you shed light on that. I was aware that the Mennonite were expressly non-violent but was not aware they were the main ones who were though I was aware of witch burning as a practice, I thought heretic killing was a Catholic activity. It still just amazes me how we as a human race can be so brutal in the name of a God who grants us such grace. And this was not thousands of years ago. In the eyes of history at large it was just yesterday especially if you look at Nazi Germany and religious persecution in the old USSR and even today, we are still not quite done with this behavior in the world are we?

 

[Rick Otto]

What does "Methodist-Subordinate to Catholic & Orthodox" mean?

 

[rturner76]

I was raised in an AME church but I recognize that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have Apostolic succession and are the root of all forms of Christianity. Something like they are the root and Methodism is one of the branches.

 

[iLogos]

Nobody liked Servetus, and I mean nobody! The man was just insane nuts crazy! Calvin did not hide the fact he had no love for the man. In fact when Calvin heard Servetus was in custody in Rome for heresy (imagine that) but Rome could do nothing because they had no copies of proof for heresy. Calvin sent his copy of some of Servetus's work directly to Rome! As you know, no Reformer was much fond of Rome, but as I said, Servetus was on every one's "hit list".

As it turns out, Servetus actually escaped RC's some how and when Calvin learned he was in his territory arranged for his arrest. So ends his involvement with Servetus.

Say what you will of the laws of the 1500-1600's, they were much different then now. And were worse in some parts of the world then others. Even in the new US we had witch hunts if you recall.

I don't think it's fair to paint Calvin as a murderer. All he did was arrange to have Servetus arrested who was a fugitive at the time as well and was well within the laws of his time.

 

[rturner76]

In post #7 I scaled back my "attack" it was a brutal time and in many ways it still is......Like I said it just amazes me that it was done in the name of Christ.

 

[iLogos]

In post #7 I scaled back my "attack" it was a brutal time and in many ways it still is......Like I said it just amazes me that it was done in the name of Christ.

Well you better add some more names to your list because as I said, Servetus had no friends. You can add Luther's name to the list that condemned Servetus along with the French and Swiss Reformers, the Catholics, the list goes on and on! Even the Governments wanted to find a way to kill him! But if you want to single out Calvin that's fine, he did not hide his feelings for Servetus He was one of many well with in their rights for the laws of the land at that time.

Servetus last words were, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me"

 

[Albion]

You are right on! I was under the impression that the reformation was largely because of the brutality of the Pope and the Overreaching arm of the church's brutality.

Well, no, it was over theology.

I was just surprised a reformer would continue that brutality.

Apparently there is good reason to question whether or not all these crimes actually happened. I must admit that the "1000s" of victims part is nothing I ever heard of before, but I'm not especially interested in Calvin anyway. Servetus, yes, but these others, no.

 

[rturner76]

I guess his favorite pass time was burning witches. I went to a weigh house in Holland that was famous. It turns out that witch hunting was more for divorces and land grabs than actual witch activity. The activity was full of corruption. A couple silver pieces to the judge and she would fry for sure. The place I went to was famous because there was never a witch found guilty there. It was totally void of corruption. I'm glad we don't have the death peanalty any more, oh wait a minute. At least it is for people who were supposed to have committed murder though I'm sure there is still corruption.

 

[iLogos]

Corruption runs deep in every circle. We are a very corrupt world. I think you are simply exploiting a piece of history to slander a person you don't like, and if true, would make you equally corrupt imho. Because by words you are trying to burn Calvin to the stake, and while you are not physically guilty of that, I would submit that your heart is equal to that and guilty of the same, if my suspicion is true.

 

[rturner76]

That's a pretty bold claim. I have no desire to burn anybody at the steak or any other way. I think I also said in my post it is still a very corrupt world did I not? I don't have any hatred for this man. I looked him up because I know nothing about him and I sew he had so many followers in this website. I wanted to see what is this man about that so many people would label themselves "Calvinist" I was just very surprised at what I found. I see you have taken up his personal defense. I seem to have upset you with my words. Is it safe to assume you are a member of his belief system?

I tried to make it clear that his followers do not reflect the same attributes

 

[iLogos]

Yes I am a Christian, What religion are you? I do question why you focus on just one name. Since so many others where also involved including Luther and the Catholic Church to name just a few. I do respect the volume of work and influence he has produced, why shouldn't I?

 

[rturner76]

I never said you shouldn't respect his work. I understand he was a fine lawyer and theocratic ruler. Though I would not say his writings were divinely inspired. I wasn't aware of this Calvin's exploits before a few days ago so I wrote about it in a place where there are people that will know more about it than I. I didn't set out to cause you personal offence. I am baptized and I grew up in an African Methodist Episcopalian Church thank you for asking. I was baptized young and would like to do it again but many churches believe in 1 baptism and I did choose it at the time. I was 13 and did not want to be confirmed Lutheran.

So would you call yourself a "Calvinist?" Is that why I seem to have offended you. Have I offended you? If so I apologize.

 

[Albion]

I know nothing about him and I sew he had so many followers in this website. I wanted to see what is this man about that so many people would label themselves "Calvinist" I was just very surprised at what I found.

While Calvin has his admirers, most "Calvinists" identify themselves that way merely because they agree with his understanding of scripture; they don't necessarily even belong to one of the denominations we associate historically with his work in Geneva.

 

[rturner76]

See, I thought that's where it all started. Was the Presbyterians?