Some Advice Needed

Im_A · Jun 22, 2008

as of lately, well since yesterday really and its still continuing, i've felt a big burden finally release off of my life. a burden that has been on me for 2 years. i suppose i believe this is an actual real thing because i woke up today, feeling the same as i did when that moment came to me yesterday that i finally felt a huge burden lift off of me.

so the past day and a half, i've been really rethinking about going back to church. not to join the church again, or to even come back to the faith initially.

some of my favorite liberal theologians, we find that they still attend church, even tho, they seem like a Christianized agnostic/atheist to so many people. maybe they are, it doesn't matter to me. but in a way, it kind of gives people like me, or maybe its just me, a reason to maybe step foot back into church again.

i've struggled with this idea for quite some time. i feel so out of place amongst a body of believers. i don't want to experience what my father has experienced at his church. he attends a luthern church and he was going to a Bible study with his wife, and my dad was asking questions and everybody must have been really bothered by the questions, and they showed their frustration, thus he stopped attending the bible study. but i wonder things about this. then i wonder about things like when worship time comes, what to do? i was watching a video where Richard Dawkins went to Ted Haggard's church before the scandals came about Haggard, and as i was watching it, i saw Dawkins sitting there, watching everything. part of me felt like, that's how i exactly would be if i'd step back into a church and i don't know if i'd want that. but then again, after this burden left me, i'm really starting to consider going back at least once in awhile. it would probably be to the Catholic Church in the community i live in. bigger congregations i'll take right now more than a small congregation.

so any advice? i've mentioned so many times until the past year and a half or two about how i was thinking of going back to church, so its kind of embarassing to mention it again. but i think this time, its more of a serious thought. any advice/discussion that comes from this will be greatly appreciated.

Tube Socks Dude · Jun 22, 2008

tattedschmoe said:
some of my favorite liberal theologians, we find that they still attend church, even tho, they seem like a Christianized agnostic/atheist to so many people. maybe they are, it doesn't matter to me. but in a way, it kind of gives people like me, or maybe its just me, a reason to maybe step foot back into church again.

I think your ship is ready to sail, but you just need somebody to push you from shore. In other words, you answered your own question. Follow your theological mentors and explore the concept of church. They learned how to balance the spiritual and social. A philosopher knows show to put religion into the greater perspective in order to enjoy it for what it is. Hopefully, you can too. There is no right or wrong answer on this quizz. There is only what works and what doesn't work. Go ye forth and find out if church can mean something to you.

Crazy Liz · Jun 22, 2008

I'd encourage you to do it, Tatted. You don't have to get involved in a Bible study or anything, but if the community, the music, scripture, or the ritual draws you in, go for that and participate in that.

I think one of the biggest differences I see between modern and postmodern Christians is a different balance between individual orientation and group orientation. This balance swings back and forth historically, or runs along a continuum among various denominations. The Anabaptist tradition with which I identify has a strong individual dimension and a strong group dimension. Catholic and Orthodox traditions tend to have stronger group dimensions, and American Evangelicals, particularly Baptists and non-denoms, have strong individual dimensions. I think you might well find a Catholic church a good place to be. Nobody is likely to reject you or make you their "project" just because you're there exploring whether you belong.

LovebirdsFlying · Jun 22, 2008

I'm not good at giving advice, and I'm really left unsure what to say. But I wanted to respond to the thread anyway, to let you know I'm in your corner.

May you end up making the right decision for you.

Multi-Elis · Jun 22, 2008

I'll just say what's obvious from your post: find a church where you can feel comfortable in the worship service.

For me that's the early morning service where I'm the youngest person by (on average) 20 years. They all respect me and love me. We sing hymns that have profound meaning. The service is usually formal, so all the ritualistic things are there. We are a small group. We then go and have coffee after it all.

Keep away from denominations that will easily get you uncomfortable with. For example, I have to keep my distance with evangelical charismatics, despite the high respect I have for them, and some of their projects. No matter how tempting, I need to keep a distance.

Im_A · Jun 22, 2008

Multi-Elis said:
Keep away from denominations that will easily get you uncomfortable with. For example, I have to keep my distance with evangelical charismatics, despite the high respect I have for them, and some of their projects. No matter how tempting, I need to keep a distance.

i've kept myself from those denominations for several years now. at least 4 to 5. i have utter contempt towards evangelical charismatic doctrine/theology. the people are great. i highly respect them. people in my childhood and adulthood that i've known that are still in that type of church, i would still love to sit and have coffee with them. but when it comes to going to that type of church or even giving that doctrine/theology a chance? i'll see hell before i do that.

for me, i want the ancient tradition. so for me that's either Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Luthern or Church of England or maybe even Methodism, because i've have great experiences and relations with the Methodist Church.

Loki · Jun 22, 2008

Give it a go with an open heart at a parish you feel comfortable in.

As for what you do during the actual worship, depends on what type of church you end up going to, and your background. I've gone and just watched, and I've gone and tried to participate mentally. In the traditions you mentioned being comfortable in, no one will really be paying attention to you (or if they are, they shouldn't be ; ), so you should feel free to do your thing. Learning to feel comfortable doing your thing, even just mentally, might be the hardest part. I think I attended mass weekly for 4 months or so last year, and never really felt comfortable at it, but that was personal anxiety.

Izdaari Eristikon · Jun 22, 2008

Yep, go with the traditions you're comfortable with. That's what will be most meaningful to you. And of course, since you're a pretty liberal kind of guy, you'd want a church that doesn't mind that. That might fit all the ones you mentioned, depending of course on the particular congregation. I don't think it much matters to God which of those you choose, as He is present in them all. But if you can believe in Him enough to pray for guidance, it couldn't hurt to ask for His help in leading you to the right one.

Btw, I'm one of those evangelical charismatics.

stumpjumper · Jun 23, 2008

Are there any Quaker meetinghouses near you?

Im_A · Jun 24, 2008

stumpjumper said:
Are there any Quaker meetinghouses near you?

i don't know. one church i used to attend to, was the First Friends Church in bellefontaine, ohio. i miss that church in a way. main reason was the former pastor, but also, small congregation but well known around town for the things that they would put on for the people of community...specifically the west end of the town which is the "bad" end of bellefontaine.

other than that i'm not sure.

Tube Socks Dude · Jun 24, 2008

tattedschmoe said:
for me, i want the ancient tradition. so for me that's either Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Luthern or Church of England or maybe even Methodism, because i've have great experiences and relations with the Methodist Church.

I began exploring the ancient traditions 11 years ago. I agree that Eastern Orthodoxy is beautiful from the outside. However, in my personal experience, the mysticism was overshadowed and stifled by an oppressive asceticism. Now, I understand that some people have a personality suited for ascetical practices and monastic ideals. They respond positively to things like fasting and being under the autority of a "father confessor". Overall, I thought there was too much emphasis on quenching so-called "passions". If I wanted a renunciate religion, I would have become Buddhist. At least with Buddhism you don't have to constantly wallow around bemoaning what an unworthy "sinner" you are. Now, the structured prayer and liturgical drama are potentially great vehicles for spiritual focus and development. But, to fully participate in Communion, you have to get through Confession. To get through Confession, you have to get through the priest. To get through the priest, you have to keep from doing anything the priest says you can't do. One time I got into trouble for being a bad boy, and the priest advised me to think of myself as a monk, an aesexual, an angel. Oh great, I had to mentally castrate myself or stop considering myself human. Since I was not going to sprout wings and become a disembodied spirit any time soon, I managed to get one last sacramental absolution and left Orthodoxy. I guess I could have kept my mouth shut about some things, but back then I zealously thought I was supposed to obey the rules, and the rules state that if you break the rules you have to confess to the priest you broke the rules. It had all the strictness regarding sin that I had experienced formerly in the Pentecostal Holiness tradition, but with the extra added responsibility of actually "telling" somebody about it. I'm not afraid to tell a Roman Catholic priest ANYTHING, but I'll never confess to another Orthodox priest again as long as I live. If someone is liberal I would strongly caution them to be fully informed about what they are getting into with regard to Orthodoxy. It's not all incense, Icons and chant. I do hear there are a few progressive Orthodox priests/parishes in larger cities, but that is apparently a rarity.

Izdaari Eristikon · Jun 24, 2008

Tube Socks Dude said:
I began exploring the ancient traditions 11 years ago. I agree that Eastern Orthodoxy is beautiful from the outside. However, in my personal experience, the mysticism was overshadowed and stifled by an oppressive asceticism. Now, I understand that some people have a personality suited for ascetical practices and monastic ideals. They respond positively to things like fasting and being under the autority of a "father confessor". Overall, I thought there was too much emphasis on quenching so-called "passions". If I wanted a renunciate religion, I would have become Buddhist. At least with Buddhism you don't have to constantly wallow around bemoaning what an unworthy "sinner" you are. Now, the structured prayer and liturgical drama are potentially great vehicles for spiritual focus and development. But, to fully participate in Communion, you have to get through Confession. To get through Confession, you have to get through the priest. To get through the priest, you have to keep from doing anything the priest says you can't do. One time I got into trouble for being a bad boy, and the priest advised me to think of myself as a monk, an aesexual, an angel. Oh great, I had to mentally castrate myself or stop considering myself human. Since I was not going to sprout wings and become a disembodied spirit any time soon, I managed to get one last sacramental absolution and left Orthodoxy. I guess I could have kept my mouth shut about some things, but back then I zealously thought I was supposed to obey the rules, and the rules state that if you break the rules you have to confess to the priest you broke the rules. It had all the strictness regarding sin that I had experienced formerly in the Pentecostal Holiness tradition, but with the extra added responsibility of actually "telling" somebody about it. I'm not afraid to tell a Roman Catholic priest ANYTHING, but I'll never confess to another Orthodox priest as long as I live. If someone is liberal I would strongly caution them to be fully informed about what they are getting into with regard to Orthodoxy. It's not all incense, Icons and chant. I do hear there are a few progressive Orthodox priests/parishes in larger cities, but that is apparently a rarity.

Thanks for the inside information.

I do find Orthodoxy very attractive in terms of their theology and their mystical traditions. OTOH, I'm highly allergic to even a trace of legalism, so I don't think it would work for me. But that certainly won't stop me from reading Orthodox theologians or adapting Orthodox prayers for my own use.

Tube Socks Dude · Jun 24, 2008

Izdaari said:
Thanks for the inside information.

I do find Orthodoxy very attractive in terms of their theology and their mystical traditions. OTOH, I'm highly allergic to even a trace of legalism, so I don't think it would work for me. But that certainly won't stop me from reading Orthodox theologians or adapting Orthodox prayers for my own use.

Yep, there are some great elements within Orthodoxy, including prayers, hymns, the basic concept of theosis, the underyling mysticism. I just think they place monastic ideals too heavily upon the laity. An ascetical struggle is fine for those who enjoy marching off into the desert to live as hermits. Then again, Orthodoxy seems to work rather well for some less troubled folks in society, such as happily married couples and little children, as well as those who happen to be too old or sick to sin.

Im_A · Jun 25, 2008

Tube Socks Dude said:
I began exploring the ancient traditions 11 years ago. I agree that Eastern Orthodoxy is beautiful from the outside. However, in my personal experience, the mysticism was overshadowed and stifled by an oppressive asceticism. Now, I understand that some people have a personality suited for ascetical practices and monastic ideals. They respond positively to things like fasting and being under the autority of a "father confessor". Overall, I thought there was too much emphasis on quenching so-called "passions". If I wanted a renunciate religion, I would have become Buddhist. At least with Buddhism you don't have to constantly wallow around bemoaning what an unworthy "sinner" you are. Now, the structured prayer and liturgical drama are potentially great vehicles for spiritual focus and development. But, to fully participate in Communion, you have to get through Confession. To get through Confession, you have to get through the priest. To get through the priest, you have to keep from doing anything the priest says you can't do. One time I got into trouble for being a bad boy, and the priest advised me to think of myself as a monk, an aesexual, an angel. Oh great, I had to mentally castrate myself or stop considering myself human. Since I was not going to sprout wings and become a disembodied spirit any time soon, I managed to get one last sacramental absolution and left Orthodoxy. I guess I could have kept my mouth shut about some things, but back then I zealously thought I was supposed to obey the rules, and the rules state that if you break the rules you have to confess to the priest you broke the rules. It had all the strictness regarding sin that I had experienced formerly in the Pentecostal Holiness tradition, but with the extra added responsibility of actually "telling" somebody about it. I'm not afraid to tell a Roman Catholic priest ANYTHING, but I'll never confess to another Orthodox priest again as long as I live. If someone is liberal I would strongly caution them to be fully informed about what they are getting into with regard to Orthodoxy. It's not all incense, Icons and chant. I do hear there are a few progressive Orthodox priests/parishes in larger cities, but that is apparently a rarity.

thanks for the info.

one way i can say this, i particular appreciate the the whole Epektasis from St. Gregory of Nyssa that has influenced the church in regards to Theosis. i think that's what your meaning how they can seem legalistic. that is actually something that appeals to me.

then again, i'm not the type of human to lament over the fact that i've done wrong. and i'm not the type of person that thinks i need to tell someone about it, unless i've done someone wrong, then i feel the need to tell them that i've done them wrong and i'm sorry.

the mysticism to me, is a huge problem. its gonna be an issue wherever i go in all reality, but in the Catholic Churches, be it Roman Catholicism, or Eastern Orthodoxy period there seems to be an extreme focus on the mysticism. now i do find beauty in myth and mysticism, but i'm no mystic. i'm a secular, 21st century man. i look at myths and mysticism as things that enrich the world we live in today, not as literal fact, or a reason to turn mystical.

but maybe its about finding the middle ground. i know at this point in my life, i'll never be in full communion with any church. mere example is with the Eastern Orthodox Church. i like maybe the whole over focus on getting sin out of one's life. but i won't go to a priest for confession (Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox). i'll go to them for guidance. not to tell the whole specifics and dreadful i feel about it. i figure, when we do wrong, unless we've realized that we've done wrong, we have no remorse till someone says it was wrong, or till the affects are felt in our lives that teach us it is wrong. i think there is beauty in myth, and mysticism, but not enough to convert me from being secular to a mystic. praying to the dead (ie saints, or the virgin mary), burning incensce on the alter to some god, just doesn't make much sense to me. while i find it beautiful, intriguing, i just can't see myself being in communion with that.

as the priest i talked to from the Eastern Orthodox parish stated, i have to experience the church to know what its about. in my own specific case, i suppose its gonna have to be that for all the variants of Christianity, for the likes of me, who is agnostic, liberal but still searching Christianity from the liberal Christian pov. and especially being the fact, that the area i live in is predominately conservative.

please know, i'm not trying to debate with you by any means. i really do appreciate the advice. just continuing our great discussion bro. thank you again.

Gukkor · Jun 25, 2008

Well, you say you think the mystical aspects of these denominations to be beautiful and intriguing. Perhaps you could get over that particular roadblock by simply focusing on the beauty of it and not trying to immerse yourself in the meaning of it.

Tube Socks Dude · Jun 25, 2008

tattedschmoe said:
but i won't go to a priest for confession (Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox). i'll go to them for guidance. not to tell the whole specifics and dreadful i feel about it. i figure, when we do wrong, unless we've realized that we've done wrong, we have no remorse till someone says it was wrong, or till the affects are felt in our lives that teach us it is wrong.

From my experiences with Roman Catholicism and from others I've talked to, going to confession is basically what you described. Roman Catholic priests are there to listen and give advice, guidance, comfort. They have a more modern, realistic pastoral approach. Sometimes it's not even about sin per se. It could be confessing something on your mind that just weighs you down and hinders your spiritual life. The only times I have had less than pleasant experiences in Roman Catholicism was when I was out of town and ended up confessing to non-American priests. The ones from Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe and less developed countries are generally far more conservative than Americans. Many Catholics hardly go to confession at all anymore. It's not something they might check for in the communion line, which is something I've heard of happening in Orthodox Churches.
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Protinus · Jun 25, 2008

tattedschmoe said:
as of lately, well since yesterday really and its still continuing, i've felt a big burden finally release off of my life. a burden that has been on me for 2 years. i suppose i believe this is an actual real thing because i woke up today, feeling the same as i did when that moment came to me yesterday that i finally felt a huge burden lift off of me.

so the past day and a half, i've been really rethinking about going back to church. not to join the church again, or to even come back to the faith initially.

some of my favorite liberal theologians, we find that they still attend church, even tho, they seem like a Christianized agnostic/atheist to so many people. maybe they are, it doesn't matter to me. but in a way, it kind of gives people like me, or maybe its just me, a reason to maybe step foot back into church again.

i've struggled with this idea for quite some time. i feel so out of place amongst a body of believers. i don't want to experience what my father has experienced at his church. he attends a luthern church and he was going to a Bible study with his wife, and my dad was asking questions and everybody must have been really bothered by the questions, and they showed their frustration, thus he stopped attending the bible study. but i wonder things about this. then i wonder about things like when worship time comes, what to do? i was watching a video where Richard Dawkins went to Ted Haggard's church before the scandals came about Haggard, and as i was watching it, i saw Dawkins sitting there, watching everything. part of me felt like, that's how i exactly would be if i'd step back into a church and i don't know if i'd want that. but then again, after this burden left me, i'm really starting to consider going back at least once in awhile. it would probably be to the Catholic Church in the community i live in. bigger congregations i'll take right now more than a small congregation.

so any advice? i've mentioned so many times until the past year and a half or two about how i was thinking of going back to church, so its kind of embarassing to mention it again. but i think this time, its more of a serious thought. any advice/discussion that comes from this will be greatly appreciated.

I am the poster child for your sentiments brother. I am gravely at odds with my Church, struggling to remain in communion yet I feel the God of Unconditional Love is challenging me (not calling me, challenging me) to change my Church. If I had the least bit of approval addiction as Izzy says, I would have deconverted in 2002 and followed my fellow Catholic's lament: "why doesn't he just leave?"

You have to realize that you are responsible for the state that brings you closer to Christ and God. You have to make an internal dialog that some or most of the theology that you have experienced in your discerning life may be flawed. There is a richness in worshiping Christ that matches no other...but it is through our hearts and not through the minds of men. You will and have the capacity to reach that communion with our Savior. It was probably like meeting Him on the Sermon Mount...we just have to sift through writings and trust our hearts.

Tube Socks Dude · Jun 25, 2008

Schmoe,

I noticed an article in the paper yesterday regarding the lastest Pew Research poll on American religion. It said that more than one in four Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants and Orthodox Christians expressed some doubts about God's existence (as did six in 10 Jews). Since there is apparently little anxiety over agnosticism in these more ancient traditions, your decision to explore them sounds like a good one. According to such statistics, it would be highly unlikely for you to be ostracized for professing to be a doubter.

Protinus · Jun 25, 2008

Tube Socks Dude said:
Schmoe,

I noticed an article in the paper yesterday regarding the lastest Pew Research poll on American religion. It said that more than one in four Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants and Orthodox Christians expressed some doubts about God's existence (as did six in 10 Jews). Since there is apparently little anxiety over agnosticism in these more ancient traditions, your decision to explore them sounds like a good one. According to such statistics, it would be highly unlikely for you to be ostracized for professing to be a doubter.

Which I think, TSD, is the problem with our approach to embracing internal dialog and change within our faiths. I would tell you more about Catholicism that would blow your mind about what modern Catholics believe and practice and it is totally a different perspective from the Vatican. We must recognize that there is an all important dialog within ourselves that is essential in our understanding of our faith. I still think that that path is within Catholicism but I would be guilty of proselytizing and it is not my point anyway.

Some Advice Needed

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...once more unto the breach dear friends

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