Sola's First thread on Kenosis

Sola1517 said:

That's confusing. How can God be both infinite and yet restricted?

BTW, RIP R.C. Sproul.

Click to expand...

How can God die? He can't. But He most assuredly did.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

How can God die? He can't. But He most assuredly did.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

The obvious answer you brought up over Easter this year. Someone asked "which nature died on the cross?"

Your answer was the correct one....Jesus Christ.

redleghunter said:

The obvious answer you brought up over Easter this year. Someone asked "which nature died on the cross?"

Your answer was the correct one....Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

It's the only answer we can give without descending into Nestorianism, which rips asunder the beautiful scandal of the Incarnation, and thus our very salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

It's the only answer we can give without descending into Nestorianism, which rips asunder the beautiful scandal of the Incarnation, and thus our very salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Indeed and as such there are still many mysteries to behold. Very humbling.

Sola1517 said:

The definition of Kenosis is the renunciation of the divine nature, at least in part, by Christ in the incarnation. (cited in Philippians 2:6)

How could Christ not know what time the Father had planned the second advent and still be divine?

Also, how could Christ not have known what time the Father had planned the second advent and not have a kenotic nature?

Click to expand...

The Greek literally says: 'emptied Himself', although He never ceased to be divine. It is one of the mysteries of the Incarnation, John 1.14. The King James renders it 'made Himself of no reputation' at Philippians 1.6.

Sola1517 said:

The definition of Kenosis is the renunciation of the divine nature, at least in part, by Christ in the incarnation. (cited in Philippians 2:6)

How could Christ not know what time the Father had planned the second advent and still be divine?

Also, how could Christ not have known what time the Father had planned the second advent and not have a kenotic nature?

Click to expand...

Philippians chapter 2 verses 6-9

There are two wrong extremes when trying to understand Philippians 2:6-9, "The Powerless Non-Divine-In-Attributes Yet Still God View" and "The Pretending to Humble Himself or Pretending to Be Limited Like A Man When He is Not View." This first wrong extreme is saying that Jesus was pretending to be God, and this second wrong extreme is saying that Jesus was pretending to be a man. Both are wrong extremes that attempt to deny one certain aspect of the Incarnation.

A. The Powerless Non-Divine-In-Attributes Yet Still God View:
(Superman Lost His Powers And Yet He is Still Superman Type View):
(A Denial of the Full Deity of Christ):

One extreme is to say that Christ emptied Himself completely of His divine powers (As if He did not have those powers anymore), which is a misunderstanding of verse 7.

In fact, regarding verse 7, “The verb "to empty" has given rise to a false misunderstanding of the incarnation. Undue theological exploitations have cast a heavy shadow on its meaning. It should be said at the outset that the verb must be understood metaphorically, not metaphysically. It says nothing about Christ stripping himself of his divine attributes (As if they were gone completely) as has sometimes been suggested.”

AND

”The verb ‘to empty’ is used elsewhere in the Pauline Epistles four times (Romans 4:14; 1 Corinthians 1:17; 1 Corinthians 9:15), and in each instance it is used metaphorically in the sense of ‘to bring to nothing,’ ‘to make worthless,’ or ‘to empty of significance.’

Anyways, the major problem with this view is that Jesus is God (or divine) and yet He does not have the essence or proof of having any of those divine privileges to actually back up His claim that He is God 100%. He is only pretending or claiming to be God. Or He is a part of the Godhead, but yet He is a crippled member or person within the Trinity. Which is wrong.

B. The Pretending to Humble Himself or Pretending to Be Limited Like A Man When He is Not View:
(The Clark Kent Disguise):
(Superman is Pretending to Be A Man When He is Not Type View):
(A Denial of the Full Humanity of Christ):

Another misunderstand of Philippians 2:6-9 is to say that Christ did not humble himself being found in the fashion of a man but He rather was pretending to be a man and was pretending to humble himself (When He really was not). For in this view: Christ was pretending to be humble yet showboating his divine powers. Christ knew all things and yet He was pretending not to know certain things. Christ could be tempted in all points like we were (Hebrews 4:12), but in reality He was not actually tempted because God cannot be tempted (James 1:13). So in this wrong view, Jesus used His powers at 100% capacity and was only pretending to be a man. Yes, in this view He has a physical body, but that is it. He was only putting on a show that He was like a man internally. He was not really our substitute completely in this view. Which is also wrong.

C. Jesus Humbled Himself As A Servant Being Fashioned as a Man (Not Exalting His Own Power As the Son of God So As To Rule By Force):
(Superman & His Super Powers Originate From His Spirit Inside The Mortal Physical Body of Clark Kent & He Can Access His Superman Powers At Any Moment But He Chooses To Suppress Some of Them Instead).
(Superman does This Fully Realizing That His Physical Body Will Eventually Die Being As A Mortal Man or As Clark Kent):
(It is Superman's Spirit Who is Eternal and Has All the Power that Makes Him Superman; Yet, the Mortal Physical Body of Clark Kent Will Die; Until After He Dies and Rises From the Grave, He Then Provides For Himself an Immortal Flesh and Blood Human Body).
(A Recognition of The Full Deity & Full Humanity of Jesus Christ):

In the correct teaching, Jesus still has His divine attributes and abilities but when He was made flesh as a man upon the Earth, He merely chose to suppress or not use some of His divine privileges or powers. The "emptying" or the "giving up of his divine privileges" is speaking in reference of a choice in not using some of those powers. It has nothing to do with him in not having them. For it's like saying I gave up running. But I still can choose to run if I desire, though. It's like saying, I "emptied" or "deprived" myself in authority and actions as governor for the weekend and decided to go fishing instead. Jesus humbled himself and gave no reputation as being the Son of God by using His own powers personally. For Jesus said that the works that He did were of the Father. Jesus was obedient to the Father until the point of death. But yet, also Jesus said He and the Father are one. That Jesus abides in the Father and the Father abides in Him. In fact, "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, ...." (2 Corinthians 5:19). For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). In the false understanding on Philippians 2:6-9 (that says that Christ gave up deity or His divine powers), this is not true. For if a certain aspect of the Eternal Word is crippled and punished and is completely stripped of any divine attributes (As if they do not exist for Him anymore) He would not fully be God. So this is wrong. This would mean God can change in essence and being. But we know that God does not change (Malachi 3:6). We know that the Lord is God from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:2). For if one believes the Eternal Word within the Godhead is no longer in possession of His divine attributes, it destroys the immutability of the Son of God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

Yeah, but how do we know Jesus still has His divine attributes or powers as God? Well, Jesus Himself said that He still has power like the Father. For Jesus said, "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." In fact, Jesus actually tells us that He uses this power elsewhere in Scripture.

Jesus answered and said unto them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19).


Source Used:
http://www.errantskeptics.org/Jesus-Christ-Kenosis.htm
(Note: I quote a part of this article. Not that I agree with their position, but because I am stating a truth that makes a point).

Best Video on Explaining the Hypostatic Union.

Christ's Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) was merely suppressed during the Incarnation so as to be like a man (limited in knowledge) (Philippians 2:6-9). For Christ was that like figure (type) of Adam (Romans 5:14), and both Adam and Jesus were limited in knowledge as a part of God's design for a certain amount of time.

Jesus said and did everything the Father told him to say and do. Jesus always pleased his Father. So He could be like a man who served God perfectly so as to be our substitute.

But Jesus was also God in power, too.


Only God could do those things.

So Jesus was not only just a man who was limited in knowledge, could feel pain, get tired, get hungry, etc. He also the Son of God who was Holy and perfect in everything He did. He quoted a Psalm of David (Psalm 22) not because He was speaking from some human side of Himself. The body was just a shell. For He said so Himself. It was a temple. Jesus was speaking as God but limited in knowledge because His divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed in the Incarnation. When Christ had achieved His mission, there would have been no reason for Him not to have His Omniscience back. This mission was paying the penalty for sin on the cross, then conquering sin and death with his resurrection, then ascending to the Father (After He told Mary to touch Him not) so as to be our mediator and Heavenly High Priest.

Just adding this one to the number of sources provided.

Oh too often we forget history:

A Summary of Orthodox Christology by Mark Jones

Furthermore, I would like to add:

Christ sort of put on a blind fold in regards to Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge as a part of His natural being as God). I believe Christ always naturally had Omniscience, but He merely suppressed it so as to be like a man so as to be our substitute. For if I put on a blind fold, my eyes that can still see are still behind the blind fold.

Jesus was a like type figure of Adam in the sense that Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil before the Fall. Jesus became like Adam in a way by suppressing His Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge). They both were limited in knowledge. Jesus is called the Last Adam according to Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:45).

In addition, Samson is a type of Christ in a loose way. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah. Lions have long haired manes. Lions are known as the kings of the jungle. Samson fought a lion and won. Samson's eyes were blinded. Jesus in a way was blinded by Him suppressing His Omniscience on some level. When Samson outstretched his arms to push down the pillars, his outstretched arms were sort of in the same position when Jesus was upon the cross. Jesus conquered the devil at the cross (which is our enemy); And Samson conquered the Philistines. Both men were saviors of their people.

Jesus the Divine Messiah had a unique DUAL NATURE:
TRUE MAN
TRUE DEITY

Q1: Was God the Son identical to God the Father or God the Holy Spirit?
A1: No.

Q2: God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit?...ONE God in spiritual essence??
A2: Yes

Q3: God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit?...THREE spiritually discernible Persons as to RANK, ROLE, MISION, NAME, FUNCTION, etc
A3: Yes.

Q4: Was Jesus the God-Man the promised Divine Messiah, the Christ?
A4: Yes

Q5: Did Jesus the God-Man come down / was sent down from heaven...
the "logos" made flesh...Deity without loss or change in Deity.
A5: Yes. see: "THE KENOSIS"

Q6: Was Jesus the God-Man Divine from conception to ascension while on planet earth?
A6: Yes.

Q7: Did the Jewish leadership plot to and accomplish the killing of Jesus the God-Man because He claimed to be THE Messiah, the Divine Son of God?
A7: Yes.

Jesus of Nazareth, (Nazarene)
the DIVINE Messiah,
the Christ,
Son of God,
Son of Man,
the "Word" (logos) made flesh...DEITY!
LORD, Master, Savior, Immanuel
KING of Kings, LORD of Lords
Lamb of God
ONLY Begotten (not made,unique) Son of God
The Good Sheherd
The Bread of Life
The Light of the World
The Narrow Gate
The Resurrection and the Life
The Way + TRUTH + Life
Alpha and Omega
The Bright Morning Star
etc...and other "I am's"

Colossians 2 ....
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity (TRUE GOD) dwells in bodily form, (TRUE MAN)
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 1 ....
18b...For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of Deity) to dwell in Him,

Colossians 1 ....
16 For by Him all things were created,
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities
—all things have been created THROUGH Him and FOR Him.
17 He is BEFORE all things, and
in Him all things "hold together".
18 He is also head of the body, the church;
and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of Deity) to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;

John 17...
24 Father, I desire that they also (disciples), whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am,
so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Philippians 2(NASB)...Be Like Christ..."The Kenosis"
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God,(DEITY)
did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (held onto)
7 but emptied Himself,
(poured out = GREEK = KENOO)
taking the form of a bond-servant, (Man)
and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man,
(MIRACULOUS incarnation)
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow,
of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, (Deity) to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus the Christ is the same yesterday (eternal: before time and space)
and today (right hand of God the Father as Intercessor in heaven for believers)
and forever. (infinite SPIRIT, Godhead)

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Ron Gurley said:

Jesus the Divine Messiah had a unique DUAL NATURE:
TRUE MAN
TRUE DEITY

Q1: Was God the Son identical to God the Father or God the Holy Spirit?
A1: No.

Q2: God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit?...ONE God in spiritual essence??
A2: Yes

Q3: God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit?...THREE spiritually discernible Persons as to RANK, ROLE, MISION, NAME, FUNCTION, etc
A3: Yes.

Q4: Was Jesus the God-Man the promised Divine Messiah, the Christ?
A4: Yes

Q5: Did Jesus the God-Man come down / was sent down from heaven...
the "logos" made flesh...Deity without loss or change in Deity.
A5: Yes. see: "THE KENOSIS"

Q6: Was Jesus the God-Man Divine from conception to ascension while on planet earth?
A6: Yes.

Q7: Did the Jewish leadership plot to and accomplish the killing of Jesus the God-Man because He claimed to be THE Messiah, the Divine Son of God?
A7: Yes.

Jesus of Nazareth, (Nazarene)
the DIVINE Messiah,
the Christ,
Son of God,
Son of Man,
the "Word" (logos) made flesh...DEITY!
LORD, Master, Savior, Immanuel
KING of Kings, LORD of Lords
Lamb of God
ONLY Begotten (not made,unique) Son of God
The Good Sheherd
The Bread of Life
The Light of the World
The Narrow Gate
The Resurrection and the Life
The Way + TRUTH + Life
Alpha and Omega
The Bright Morning Star
etc...and other "I am's"

Colossians 2 ....
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity (TRUE GOD) dwells in bodily form, (TRUE MAN)
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 1 ....
18b...For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of Deity) to dwell in Him,

Colossians 1 ....
16 For by Him all things were created,
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities
—all things have been created THROUGH Him and FOR Him.
17 He is BEFORE all things, and
in Him all things "hold together".
18 He is also head of the body, the church;
and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of Deity) to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;

John 17...
24 Father, I desire that they also (disciples), whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am,
so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Philippians 2(NASB)...Be Like Christ..."The Kenosis"
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God,(DEITY)
did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (held onto)
7 but emptied Himself,
(poured out = GREEK = KENOO)
taking the form of a bond-servant, (Man)
and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man,
(MIRACULOUS incarnation)
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow,
of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, (Deity) to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus the Christ is the same yesterday (eternal: before time and space)
and today (right hand of God the Father as Intercessor in heaven for believers)
and forever. (infinite SPIRIT, Godhead)

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Click to expand...

Yet, while Christ did suppress His divine attribute of Omniscience, Christ also had power as God during His Earthly ministry, as well.

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus received worship (Matthew 28:9); Only the eternal God can be worshiped. In none of the times the Bible describes Jesus being worshiped did He ever tell them to stop, unlike with the time when Peter refused worship and the angel refused John bowing down to him (See Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26; Revelation 19:9-10).

For only God could do those things.

Jason0047 said:

In addition, Samson is a type of Christ in a loose way. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah. Lions have long haired manes. Lions are known as the kings of the jungle. Samson fought a lion and won. Samson's eyes were blinded. Jesus in a way was blinded by Him suppressing His Omniscience on some level. When Samson outstretched his arms to push down the pillars, his outstretched arms were sort of in the same position when Jesus was upon the cross. Jesus conquered the devil at the cross (which is our enemy); And Samson conquered the Philistines. Both men were saviors of their people.

Click to expand...

Speaking of Samson:

Did anyone see the trailer for the upcoming Samson movie (that is coming out this February 16th)?

Here it is, if you did not see it yet.


Side Note:

The Story of Samson is one of my favorites from the Bible, so I am really excited to see this one.