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mikpat

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Jason believes that the KJV Bible has no errors, etc. That is nice, great, etc

Here is a list of Bibles and I'm sure the readers, authors, etc.
feel the same way about their Bible.

List;

NIV, CPV, NKJV, RSV Contraternity Version, NJB, NEB, REB, CEV, Good News Bible, TEV, NRSV, JNT, the Living Bible, NAB, Douay-Rheims, The Ignatius Bible….. and many more.

In all fairness, without getting into a windy discussion, it's profitable to read different bibles to be aware of the strengths and weaknesses but when all is said and done, I guess, the best Bible is the one you are reading.

As for "Sola Scriptura" I think St. Peter said it all——2 Peter 1 : 20 −21.

AMDG
 
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First, again, I use Modern Translations. I am not a die hard KJV purist who thinks that it is bad to read other translations. I believe that the reading of Modern Translations helps to update the language in the KJV and it is sort of like sifting thru the dirt to get to the gold in the KJV and the original languages (i.e. Hebrew and Greek).

Second, if there are Christians who exist today who believe there is a perfect Word of God besides the KJV, then they are a very very small minority. Most Christians besides KJV-onlyists and folks like myself (who are not die hard KJV-onlyists but believe the KJV to be the perfect Word of God) do not believe in a perfect Word of God for our day.


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giftofGod2

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I've heard it said that "There is such a thing as a born again Catholic", which kind of statement would tell me that most Catholics are not born again, since a born again Catholic is the exception to the rule (since they also deny such scriptures as 1 Timothy 2:5).

Since the true church is composed of all those who are born again, the Catholic church would not be the authority on what is the canon of scripture, but the authoirty on this subject would be those who are born again (the true church), which people group consists mostly of Protestants.

Therefore, when we look at 2 Timothy 3:15-16, the "holy scripures" which are able to make us wise unto salvation, would be the canon accepted by Protestants, while all scripture (everything written) is useful in the work of the ministry. Even if something is biased against Christianity, it can be used in the process of ministry, but the Bible itself is the final and absolute authority where other things written contradict the testimony of holy scripture. And in the process of debate I may take something from an evolutionary science textbook and refute it with something in a Creation science textbook.
 
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sculleywr

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Christians who believe the KJV to be the perfect Word of God are a small minority, because it is a false claim, even without being a "die hard KJV purist". It's an unbased assumption. The fact is that it's the same thing that the Medieval Catholics said about the Vulgate when they executed Tyndale and Wycliffe. It's an altogether untenable and unbased assumption.
 
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The only reason you believe so is because it goes against your belief system. You did not come to this decision or conclusion by doing an objective comparison of the KJV vs. the Modern Translations. If you had, you wouldn't believe the way you do now.


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sculleywr

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And objective comparison that doesn't assume the Textus Receptus to be the perfect text of Scripture? Easy. Missing verses in the Psalms, reference to nonexistent holidays, use of phrases that wouldn't exist without the British empire?

I left KJV Purism because of objective comparison finding that ALL versions, including the KJV, have errors.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I left KJV Purism because of objective comparison finding that ALL versions, including the KJV, have errors.
I didn't join kjv-only BECAUSE NO VERSIONS have errors. (none vital that is).

(It is when men (any church) INTERPRETS (lies about interpreting) what God says simple and plain , the men do it deceived themselves, to gain power and control over others, that the errors become readily harmful and apparent to others) ...

Later, if Yhwh permits, He may reveal this to you also.

He does desire to heal us all. ('save' us all completely, from all pain, deception and errors we have surrounding us).

To know the Truth, sets us free from depending on kjv, or depending on any denomination.
 
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I have already explained it to you, but you prefer to see what you want to see.

I am moving on.

May God bless you.
And please be well.


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giftofGod2

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KJV-onyists are indeed a small minority, but then, Jesus said, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14.

I was stumbled too greatly by morningstar doctrine which can be found in the NIV and the NASB, so from now on I am sticking to the KJV where it is not found.

To me, those other translations contain what was prophesied in 2 Peter 2:1, secretly introduced damnable heresies that even deny the Lord that bought them; and those people who worship those translations will go so far as to say that the original Greek bears out that the person spoken of in Isaiah 14:9-20 is the bright and morning star Jesus Christ our Lord (though they deny Him as the Lord by effectively calling Him satan). Because Jesus is the brght and morning star according to Revelation 22:16, and the other translations apply the term morning star to a passage that is clearly about satan.
 
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Propianotuner

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If you think the KJV is somehow closer to the autographs in their original languages, you really need to learn more about the Alexandrian and Caesarean/Western text types, the materials that Desiderius Erasmus had to work with, and how limited their vocabulary knowledge of the old tongues was compared to scholarship today. For the most part they borrowed from a literary tradition of English translations that was already well formed, and they didn't present much in the way of significant advancements in our knowledge of the biblical manuscript tradition.

The text of the book of Job alone should make this obvious. Have you had any formal education or taught yourself how to read these languages? How much are you aware of the current debates over the Alexandrian, Caesarean, and Byzantine text types, and assorted examples of variations that don't fit in with those scribal traditions as we know them? More pointedly: are you aware of the unfavorable and relatively late historical conditions of the Byzantine text type, and the resulting problems in the accuracy of the Textus Receptus?
 
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sculleywr

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I have already explained it to you, but you prefer to see what you want to see.

I am moving on.

May God bless you.
And please be well.


...
I prefer to think critically about the topic. If there any evidence that the KJV is perfect? No. Is there evidence of flaws in the KJV? Yes. Did the Translators of the KJV say there were errors in the KJV? Yes.

Not to mention that 100% perfection means that not a single error of any kind exists, even grammatical, which is why the KJV cannot be perfect, as thousands of revisions were made from 1611 to 1769, the biggest revision being the removal of many books from the KJV. If the KJV was originally perfect, then nothing needed to be changed, added, or removed. Perfection contraindicates alteration. you don't fix something if it isn't broken.
 
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sculleywr

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Only one problem, Lucifer simply means morning star. They didn't change the content. They only veiled the content behind a name that wouldn't have been used in the time of Isaiah. Latin wouldn't exist for several hundred years. The Etruscans hadn't even brought the Phoenician letters into mainland Italy at the time of the writing of the book, so the use of Latin proper names, especially when the Babylonians, whom Isaiah is talking about in the preceding and proceeding passages, used the term morning star to refer to the king.

This changes the meaning of the passage, and follows in an ongoing theme of the Scriptures where they demythologize things. By predicting the destruction and downfall of the person men had raised to the position of "morning star", Isaiah was proving that only one Person could live up to such a title: God. While he had not revealed the Son at this point in the text, this is a statement that all idols raised up by men will be destroyed by God. To be frank, that's a much more applicable message than telling us about something we can't change.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I prefer to think critically about the topic.

Thus, as you have posted often: "I will" instead of "Thy will"......
earlier it was, "My 'church'" instead of "Thy assembly".

Until it is all "Thy Will" as Yhwh Pleases, it is nothing.
 
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First, you did not grow up in the time of Paul whereby you truly experienced Biblical Greek within a real world experienced culture. You are only guessing as to what the language is saying based on what others have said (and not based on personal liguistic experience).

Second, the text of KJV can be proven to be divine just by:

(a) Doing a side by side comparison of the KJV with Modern Translations.
(b) By studying Biblical Numerics within the KJV. Check out King James Code by Mike Hoggard at YouTube.

...
 
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No. There was no standardization in grammar and spelling yet and the printing process was still not perfected yet, either. So it was a product of the times. As grammar and spelling became standardized and the printing process had been improved, the KJV then reached a point whereby it caught up with the times.


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Propianotuner

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First, you did not grow up in the time of Paul whereby you truly experienced Biblical Greek within a real world experienced culture.

Yeah, and neither did translators living in the early 17th century.

You are only guessing as to what the language is saying based on what others have said (and not based on personal liguistic experience).

This is more than a little erroneously presumptuous on your part. I spent half a decade in seminary, at CVBI, learning the original languages from Dr. Hyatt, a renowned Fullerton alumni, and much of the rest of my life studying text variations and comparing a panoply of translations, many of which have not been in English and several of which have been in ancient tongues (e.g. Syriac and Armenian translations).

Can you name the members of this alphabet for me without some online cheat sheet?



Or Greek?



Thirty years ago I was practically mouthing these letters and their associated vocabulary in my sleep. And I say none of this to stand on some high horse. It is a demonstration of your unwarranted presumption. You know nothing about my personal linguistic experience, and are absolutely welcome to test it.

Second, the text of KJV can be proven to be divine just by:

Neither of these that you've provided is a biblical test for the divine origin of something. That is, unless you're somehow capable of supplying scripture references that demonstrate that your litmus for divine origin is biblical.

(a) Doing a side by side comparison of the KJV with Modern Translations.

The modern translations aren't a standard for comparison. If the KJV has any merits they are within it's relationship to the autographs, through the manuscript tradition.

(b) By studying Biblical Numerics within the KJV. Check out King James Code by Mike Hoggard at YouTube.

This is absurd. And I say that not in the spirit of denigration or disparagement, but as an exclamation that the only proper standard for determining the merits of a translation is again it's relationship with the autographs.

This is your "divinely translated bible":



And this is the closest iteration we have of the genuine article:





Guess what they didn't have on hand in the 17th century? Manuscripts even close to as old as the 2nd century. Neither did they have one of the Nicene era codexes like Codex Sinaiticus for that matter. Nope, they were translating from the Textus Receptus which Desiderius Erasmus had collated from Byzantine manuscripts, the oldest of which can't have been older than the 11th century. And vocabulary wise they were in numerous instances just plain factually wrong.

Looks like you could use a proper introductory text instead of some youtube video.

 
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Propianotuner

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You apparently missed Irenaeus's explanation of how the barbarians in Gaul held up against the heresies he described.

Yeah no, I didn't because I've read Irenaeus more times than I can count now. He is my personal favorite amongst the Ante Nicene Fathers.

Let's not waste our time with overly hasty examples of "you apparently never read this then". I intend to do my best in interpreting what you say as charitably as I can, and it is fairly reasonable for me to expect the same kind of clemency from you in a technical discussion of this nature, especially if you are a follower of Christ.

Continuity of thought is something that the Councils had, but that doesn't mean that there weren't multiple canons around.

.... I had alluded to precisely that when I mentioned the wide disagreement immediately after Athanasius within the epistles of Orthodox bishops.

Athanasius's canon is what we use, based on the council of Carthage that ratified its use, but saying it was what was used before Athanasius wrote it down is an assumption that isn't based in evidence.

I never said Carthage's canon was used before Athanasius. This is what I said:


And having nothing specifically to do with Carthage:



The time of acceptance in a canon is not identical to the time of inscripturation. Inspiration happens initially at the time of inscripturation, that much I am sure we can agree upon. Neither is the beginning of liturgical use the time at which the scriptures initially possessed inspiration. When for example as Paul was telling Timothy that his epistle was theopnustos, at that point in time the text was already inspired because Paul was currently being used as a mouthpiece of the Holy Ghost.

You also seem to think that I am saying the Church alone, without the Tradition it was built on, is sufficient.

It may have seemed that way to you, but I can assure you, my brother, that I never said that.


Your statements here are not representative of Sola Ekklesia as it was defined and used to expostulate in the Counter Reformation. Sola Ekklesia is the doctrine that Holy Writ and Tradition are both part and parcel of the whole organism that is the Church, which defines both through the guidance of it's Head.

With those semantics aside, I'd like to know what means you think are available to establish the validity of Tradition, that is: if you don't think it's essentially unfalsifiable.
 
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mikpat

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26 pages, over 500 replies, uhhh seems to demonstrate what happens when one person says another person's interpretation, translation, of the Bible is in error a reference is off topic. The Bible itself does not provide a solution, for each person can claim he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

An appeal has to be made to some authority other than the Bible, to settle such conflicts and this is a major factor in the number of various denominations after 1500's AD. Prior to that the main source of scripture authority was the Church,
 
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mikpat

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GiftoGod2——
regarding # 503, you stated that the Catholic Church denies (1 Timothy 2:5). ?????
The Catholic Church does promote: " love from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith." The Catholic Church goes much further by explaining what is a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith. (The Catechism of the Catholic Church).

Without any teaching exactly what these virtues entail, Im afraid the virtues are open to a multitude of interpretations and in many cases will fit into a person's frame of reference very conveniently.
 
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sculleywr

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That doesn't change the meaning of perfect. Since it was perfect, the original established the standard, not the other way around. Perfection does not need to "catch up with the times". The times have to catch up with perfection.
 
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