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Standing Up

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I don't know what the Ethiopians received.

Okay. I thought you were commenting on the Septuagent.

So, the Septuagent contained 3/4 Macc? And all the rest EO has? Weren't there a number of controversies over the centuriest about it? What makes you think your version today is the same as the one 2000 years ago?

I'm not sure which one we use.

Oops. Never mind the questions. But for someone who thinks they use the Sep, it'd be good to know which one.

But this brings up an interesting point on the NT.

The version the EO use is the same we received.

What? I thought you just said you don't know. Okay, please answer the questions.


Believe that refers to the septuagent, not the masoretic text. Not sure.
 
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Montalban

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In reading Wiki's article about Psalm 151 (which our bible includes, and Protestant ones exclude) it says that this Psalm is present in collections found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls
 
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Thekla

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Okay. I thought you were commenting on the Septuagent.
No, just commenting on reception of text as acceptance of OT canon.

So, the Septuagent contained 3/4 Macc? And all the rest EO has? Weren't there a number of controversies over the centuriest about it? What makes you think your version today is the same as the one 2000 years ago?

There are differences in the "sorting" of books (compression, etc.).
It seems the RC has a different Macc. sorting.

Oops. Never mind the questions. But for someone who thinks they use the Sep, it'd be good to know which one.
What do you mean "think they use"


What? I thought you just said you don't know. Okay, please answer the questions.

These latter comments were in reference to the NT (New Testament).
We use the texts received.
Many modern translations have used NT texts found recently in ancient Egyptian garbage dumps.


Believe that refers to the septuagent, not the masoretic text. Not sure.
No, to the New Testament.
 
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Standing Up

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No, just commenting on reception of text as acceptance of OT canon.



There are differences in the "sorting" of books (compression, etc.).
It seems the RC has a different Macc. sorting.


What do you mean "think they use"

Is your current OT identical to the septuagent of 2000 years ago, in terms of contents, not just sorting?
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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In reading Wiki's article about Psalm 151 (which our bible includes, and Protestant ones exclude) it says that this Psalm is present in collections found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls


That's nice.... I can't for the life of me image what in the world that has to do with this thread but thanks for the tidbit of info... BTW, there were a LOT of books found among the Dead Sea Scrolls that aren't the the unique collection of books your denomination calls Scripture.


No where in the NT is Psalm 151 specificly quoted or referred to as Scripture, so I don't have a clue what this has to do with your profound issue of dismay that none agrees with your singular denomination on what is and is not Scripture. Of course, that's not the issue of this thread. My counsel: if you want to discuss your depression over why none agrees with your denomination on what is and is not Scripture (and never has), start a thread on that.




.
 
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Montalban

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That's nice.... I can't for the life image what in the world that has to do with this thread but thanks for the tidbit of info....

As noted, I keep asking you "re: the thread" and all I get is you re-posting your norma normans spiel
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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steve_bakr said:
The problem with using Scripture as the only Ruler is that you get into the problem of differing interpretations of Scripture





Steve,


Please consider these points:


1. It really helps to stick with one topic at a time (with the topic of the thread). This thread is not about principles of hermeneutics. Nor is it about arbitration. It's about WHAT is embraced as the rule in the norming of disputed dogmas among us. Of course, the whole thing is predicated on the embrace of ACCOUNTABILITY - that when there is a dispute in dogma, it's at least possible that one (or even both) could be wrong, hence the need for norming. THIS is where the dispute lies vis-a-vis the Rule of Scripture. The two primary protestors of this known to me (the RCC and LDS) passionately object to the practice NOT because they reject Scripture or because both agree with none on what is and is not Scripture but RATHER because both reject accountability (in the sole, singular, exclusive, unique, particular case of self alone - both passionately insist upon it for all OTHER teachers); it is seen by them as "flying in the face" of the insistence of self that self cannot be wrong, self is infallible (in dogma, anyway), since self (each self insists) CAN'T be wrong, norming is inappropriate in the sole case of self. Thus, the "rebuttles" are all defenses of how self is infallible rather than some attack on Scripture or some suggestion of some MORE inerrant, inspired, objective, knowable, ecumenically embraced alternative.


2. IF this thread were about hermeneutics and thus I could post about that, I'd note that no matter what the rule embrace, it would often need to be interpreted. Your rebuke applies - no matter WHAT is embraced. Since ALL choices have this aspect, it does not disqualify any given choice. But, I'd add this: interpreting a known entity, black and white objective words all human beings can know and can't change is preferrable to self insisting that self alone is the sole interpreter (CCC 87) of the Tradition of self (OOC Tradition or EOC Tradition or RCC Tradition or LDS Tradition) hidden in the heart of itself (CCC 113, etc.) known only to self and embraced as reliable only by self.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.
 
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Thekla

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The entirety of the variation between the Septuagint and the Masoretic is not Psalm 151

If the issue of the thread is SOla Scriptura, what Scripture is is topical and indeed central.

If, for example, John calls "Little Red Riding Hood" Scripture and Pete calls "Charge of the Light Brigade" Scripture, and both try to settle common doctrine using their respective Scriptures, a problem will ensue.
 
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Montalban

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The entirety of the variation between the Septuagint and the Masoretic is not Psalm 151
Absoultely!
If the issue of the thread is Sola Scriptura, what Scripture is is topical and indeed central.

We're still no closer to why Protestants follow sola scriptura - either why they do it, or why they follow a particular group of scripture.
 
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sculleywr

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So Paul walked around in a world where the entire Church knew he was writing scripture? If that was true, then I guess that I live in a Yellow Submarine (Yay beatles!). The Church did not know what scripture was until about 400 years after the Apostles died.

Now we're getting into fantasy. The Scriptures certainly DO testify to their origin and worth; and that verse from Thessalonians doesn't say a thing about what is proposed as the repacement for Scripture, i.e. Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition.

Ok, quick, one place where in scripture we can identify exactly which books are scripture, prove their authority, and since Tradition has no authority, prove that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the authors of the gospels beyond doubt without referring to one tradition.

You will fail.

They are not Tradition. They just were created long ago

So God failed to protect all of His revelation? Paul refers to the Oral Tradition in Thessalonians and in Corinthians. Did God fail? because by your word, God didn't protect the Oral tradition. It doesn't exist in your Anglican churches because their tradition has changed time and again in history. Truth doesn't change.

No more or less than Catholics do.

The Orthodox are who you are debating with when you talk to me or the others with the Tribar. Please learn that Roman does not equal Orthodox. The Canons are Tradition because they came out of the Church's understanding as determined by the wisdom of the whole Church. The books in the canon have been taught from as scripture even before they were given the official label. On the other hand, Luther cut out anything he couldn't find in the Hebrew, despite the fact that Christ used the Septuagint as his source for Scripture, including several books which were not available in Hebrew

But Luther did not exclude James, so when I read this, I think that the whole post was little more than a rendition of favorite denominational slurs picked up on some website or other.
I never said he didn't include it. I said he didn't want to include it. But his pick and choose method was based in a doctrine that had never existed in the church before him. He said that if it wasn't available in Hebrew, then it wasn't scripture.

This despite the fact that Christ did not use the Masoretic text as his primary source for quotes makes me doubt Luther's validity. On what authority did Luther change the canon? He doesn't represent the whole church.
 
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Thekla

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I didn't think you claimed so, MamaZ. But I just wanted to know if I had missed something, or if possibly using a different OT gave a verse differently.

I do think laughter born of scorn is different than laughter born of delight. And 'delight' is a lovely word Biblically. In the Hebrew it is what God calls creation. In the Greek it is related to what is said of Christ at His baptism, "... in Whom I am well pleased/delighted." But I don't see laughter there.
There is a certain profoundness to delight that moves to silence.

As for a sense of humor, I don't see an indication of it. Every work of God is sublime, whereas humor tends to less depth. Laughter is often preceded by surprise, and I don't believe God is "surprised" at things. Laughter is also a physical relieving of tension (surprise is a form of tension), and I don't know of God being "tense". Laughter is a medicine, but Christ did not need medicine for He is He Who heals.

So this is what I see in the Scriptures thus far.
 
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Albion

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I don't know if you just reasoned that out or if you read it on a discussion board somewhere, but I have to tell you that it's completely wrong. EVERY book that is now in your Bible was in general use in the Chistian churches of the Christian world by AD 100 and almost all of them much before that. The oldest of Paul's epistles was written within three or four years of the Ascension.


Yes, I probably will "fail" to answer about six questions at once and immediately.

However, you are doing what so many others mistakenly do--confuse the process of identifying Scripture with the Scriptures themselves. We have them; the whole Christian world accepts them. There is no point in trying to find fault with them in every way possible. And the alternative, i.e., Tradition? No one here who touts it so enthusiastically can even tell us what it is!


So God failed to protect all of His revelation? Paul refers to the Oral Tradition in Thessalonians and in Corinthians.

No he does not. That does not appear there at all. He speaks of 'traditions,' not 'Oral Tradition' as an alternative to Scripture. You can't even tell me one doctrine that Paul is supposed by you to be telling people to hold to, can you? No. That's it has nothing to do with doctrine. He may well have been saying to be sure you guys keep going to synagogue regularly--as is your tradition. That's no method for inventing new doctrines!

Did God fail? because by your word, God didn't protect the Oral tradition. It doesn't exist in your Anglican churches because their tradition has changed time and again in history. Truth doesn't change.
Well, that makes no sense at all.

The Orthodox are who you are debating with when you talk to me or the others with the Tribar. Please learn that Roman does not equal Orthodox.

Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, all Catholics arguing over whose version of 'Tradition' is the right one. Obviously that Tradition is no guide to truth when that's the case.
 
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Montalban

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We have them; the whole Christian world accepts them.

this isn't true, as I've already demonstrated here. This is apart from the books that we outright disagree with - the books your church decided to reject.

Your book of Pslams has one less Psalm than mine does.

My book of Daniel contains more than your book does.

By the way, I was still hoping you could show me the scripture to show why the Queen should be the head of the church.
 
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steve_bakr

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We may disagree regarding certain aspects of Tradition, but we are in agreement that Tradition exists and is an integral part of the faith. BTW, it is not Scipture vs. Tradition; it is Scripture and Tradition.
 
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Albion

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We may disagree regarding certain aspects of Tradition, but we are in agreement that Tradition exists and is an integral part of the faith. BTW, it is not Scipture vs. Tradition; it is Scripture and Tradition.

No, we still are in disagreement on this matter. To you, Tradition is an imaginary stream of opinion that amounts to a supplement to God's Holy Word, a second source of revelation equal to the Bible. To us, tradition is just what it would be if we were speaking of history rather than religion. IOW, it's a gauge of the church's interpretation of Scripture through the ages, not a supplement or appendix to Scripture. Tradition is used, just like Reason, to understand Scripture, that's all.

BTW, it is not Scipture vs. Tradition; it is Scripture and Tradition.

Well, that's how Catholics would like us to think of it, but in reality it's still Scripture vs. Tradition.
 
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