Sodomy...

catlover said:

According to the online dictionary sodomy is:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
sod·om·y Audio Help /ˈsɒdəmi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sod-uh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
2. copulation with a member of the same sex.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sodomy

Does that mean the heterosexual people who participate in oral or anal sex with their spouse will go to hell?

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Sexual sin is not the biggest, just the most cliche. Although it can kill you physically as well.

Johh boy's got ya covered:

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

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Sounds tough. But:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

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Fast forward to August 4th 2008, a little Christian pop singer named Natalie Grant, and she is just one voice of many young Christians:

I have been a wayward child
I have acted out
I have questioned Sovereignty
And had my share of doubt
And though sometimes my prayers feel like
They're bouncing off the sky
The hand I hold won't let me go
And is the reason why

I will stumble
I will fall down
But I will not be moved
I will make mistakes
I will face heartache
But I will not be moved
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
I will not be moved

Bitterness has plagued my heart
Many times before
My life has been like broken glass
And I have kept the score
Of all my shattered dreams and though it seemed
That i was too far gone
My brokenness helped me to see
It's grace I'm standing on

I will stumble
I will fall down
But I will not be moved
I will make mistakes
I will face heartache
But I will not be moved
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
I will not be moved

All the chaos in my life
Has been a badge I've worn
And though I have been torn
I will not be moved

No

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From the mouth of youth.

(I hope Natalie forgives me for the use of her work here.)

sacerdote said:

You can skip the "as taught by conservative churches" argument. That's a dig. Sodomy is a sin according to the bible no matter what your sexual orientation.

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Could you give chapter and verse on that?

David.

David Brider said:

Could you give chapter and verse on that?

David.

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Why would I want to do that? You'd just critisize it. And please David, don't even start with the bible doesn't mean what it says, it was mistranslated, it doesn't say anything about sodomy nonsense. I will not debate sin that is clearly stated in scripture and even more clearly supported by established commentaries on scripture. Sodomy is sin and those who do it are sinners. The Holy Bible is the written, inspired word of God and those of you who do not accept it as so are wrong. End of story.

sacerdote said:

Don't even start with the bible doesn't mean what it says, it was mistranslated, it doesn't say anything about sodomy nonsense. I will not debate sin that is clearly stated in scripture and even more clearly supported by established commentaries on scripture. Sodomy is sin and those who do it are sinners. The Holy Bible is the written, inspired word of God and those of you who do not accept it as so are wrong. End of story.

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??? None of that's really answering the question. Could you just show me where the Bible says that sodomy is a sin regardless of sexual orientation? Specifically, sodomy between opposite-sex couples?

David.

David Brider said:

??? None of that's really answering the question. Could you just show me where the Bible says that sodomy is a sin regardless of sexual orientation? Specifically, sodomy between opposite-sex couples?

David.

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Sacerdote,

Don't avoid these kinds of baiting tactics. Even Jesus was mocked. Gay religiosity and those that peddle it were not ignored by the Disciples. Remember, they were taught many things by Jesus. These guys dealt with this kind of thing:

From Jude:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.

They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality

and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.


Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.

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Polycarp_fan said:

Sacerdote,

Don't avoid these kinds of baiting tactics.

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Relax. I'm not baiting, I'm not mocking. I'm just curious as to where (if at all) the Bible addresses the issue of anal and/or oral sex between opposite-sex couples. I'm not aware of any verses that do address it. Sacerdote tells us there is. How do you think that it's either baiting or mocking to ask him to let us know what those verses are?

David.

David Brider said:

Relax. I'm not baiting, I'm not mocking. I'm just curious as to where (if at all) the Bible addresses the issue of anal and/or oral sex between opposite-sex couples. I'm not aware of any verses that do address it. Sacerdote tells us there is. How do you think that it's either baiting or mocking to ask him to let us know what those verses are?

David.

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The authors of many of the New Testament letters, have answered your question. I just want Sacerdote to know he is not the one in the wrong. I view what you did as a typical baiting tactic. It looks like one to me. This is a common tactic of gay debaters, to derail threads and to have them break down to a mocking-fest.

I like leaving Paul rest, while showing where the other authors address the gay plague on the Church (since Paul was immutable on the innappropriateness of the behavior for Christians). They were prophetic in much of what and why they wrote what they did.

I apologize (really sometimes I do), if I got you wrong.

Polycarp_fan said:

The authors of many of the New Testament letters, have answered your question. I just want Sacerdote to know he is not the one in the wrong.

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I'm not saying he's in the wrong - I'm asking him to back up his statement that he's in the right (this being a debate and discussion forum, it's not unreasonable to expect people to back up their statements. In this case, it shouldn't be too difficult. If there's just one verse in the Bible that specifically references the act of sodomy between a man and a woman, I'd like to see it. I'm not convinced that any such verses exist - I'd've thought I'd've read them by now - but I'm happy to be proven wrong).

I view what you did as a typical baiting tactic. It looks like one to me. This is a common tactic of gay debaters, to derail threads and to have them break down to a mocking-fest.

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Given that this whole thread is addressing the topic of sodomy - and specifically the OP asks if there's any difference between the Biblical attitude towards sodomy when practiced by same-sex couples and sodomy practiced by opposite-sex couples - I'm not sure how you can see my question (where does the Bible address sodomy between opposite-sex couples?) as derailing the thread. It's precisely the topic of the thread, after all.

And FWIW, I've got absolutely no interest in mocking people. I'm interested in serious discussion and debate. I don't necessarily agree with some (or indeed a lot) of the things that you and Sacerdote say. But please don't mistake my disagreement for mocking, or baiting, or anything of that ilk, because it's not where I'm at. If I ask a question, it's because I'm looking for a genuine answer to that question. If I make a statement, it's because I genuinely believe that statement to be true.

David.

David Brider said:

I'm not saying he's in the wrong - I'm asking him to back up his statement that he's in the right (this being a debate and discussion forum, it's not unreasonable to expect people to back up their statements. In this case, it shouldn't be too difficult. If there's just one verse in the Bible that specifically references the act of sodomy between a man and a woman, I'd like to see it. I'm not convinced that any such verses exist - I'd've thought I'd've read them by now - but I'm happy to be proven wrong).

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If Jude doesn't help you, not much will. You being a "progressive" and all, your mind is clearly made up. It's actually so interesting to see how close-minded and authoritairan most liberals are. You say you are a "fundamentalist" too, but how? There are fundamentals of the faith. That means immutable. Marriage for example. It is a man and a woman without even a shred of doubt it that. "yet," you liberal "fundamentalists" some how disregard plain truth. "Sodomy," though not an unforgiveable sin, is certainly highlighted by the Apostles.

Given that this whole thread is addressing the topic of sodomy - and specifically the OP asks if there's any difference between the Biblical attitude towards sodomy when practiced by same-sex couples and sodomy practiced by opposite-sex couples - I'm not sure how you can see my question (where does the Bible address sodomy between opposite-sex couples?) as derailing the thread. It's precisely the topic of the thread, after all.

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It appears that "the destable ways" statement would cover the inappropriateness of detestable practices. From Old to New Testament, the concern is not to be like the pagans. And in regards to "liberals and progressives" tax collectors too. Bujt that is for another thread. I cannot reconcile "liberal and progressive" ideology with the faith delivered to the saints.

And FWIW, I've got absolutely no interest in mocking people.

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I'm a big boy David. Who do you think you are fooling?

I'm interested in serious discussion and debate.

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It sure doesn't look like it seeing how and what progressives Christians choose as the basis for their theological stand. It is based far more on Humanism than the Gospel. Sodomy and all.

I don't necessarily agree with some (or indeed a lot) of the things that you and Sacerdote say.

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No "progressive" can. We exist in to entirely different camps. I in the Apostolic Gospel and you in something new and different. Altered in fact.

But please don't mistake my disagreement for mocking, or baiting, or anything of that ilk, because it's not where I'm at.

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You would be the very, very, rare exception to the common lefty "ilk," It appears that "all" of them think they are scholarly elites. Yet, it also appears that they are taking us all "backwards" in time to paganism. Hardly progressive in any many ways.

If I ask a question, it's because I'm looking for a genuine answer to that question. If I make a statement, it's because I genuinely believe that statement to be true.

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I somewhat believe you. But if you think "sodomy" is OK for anyone, then it could only exist as appropriate, in complete privacy. Once it is paraded down mainstreet, it is open for public concern. But homosexuality is not OK anytime for "Christians." Do you need more scripture proof? It is fasle teachings no matter the label on a Church sign.

Polycarp_fan said:

If Jude doesn't help you, not much will.

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If Jude has anything to say about the issue of sodomy between people of opposite genders, then I'm happy to be shown it.

You being a "progressive" and all, your mind is clearly made up.

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Most people's minds are, in my experience. The question (in a debate forum, at any rate) is - can someone with a made-up mind be persuaded that they're wrong?

It's actually so interesting to see how close-minded and authoritairan most liberals are.

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I don't tend to find that to be the case, but I suppose it must be fairly easy to think that people with beliefs that are diametrically opposite to one's own, might be closed minded on their beiefs (although I don't know about "authoritarian" - that's something different entirely).

You say you are a "fundamentalist" too, but how?

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Because I believe what I understand to be the fundamentals of the Christian faith to be true.

There are fundamentals of the faith. That means immutable.

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No, fundamental and immutable mean two different things.

Marriage for example.

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During my life as a Christian and my studies of the Bible, I don't think I've ever come across anything that suggests that marriage is fundamental to the Christian faith.

It is a man and a woman without even a shred of doubt it that. "yet," you liberal "fundamentalists" some how disregard plain truth.

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As you're well aware, people who disagree with you (who aren't necessarily all liberals) on the issue of what marriage is, don't disagree with you that marriage is depicted in the Bible as taking place between a man and a woman. The disagreement is over your belief that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. Certainly, there are several instances within the Bible of polygamous relationships being at least accepted by God, and it seems that the only reason to discount such relationships as being permissible for our times has more to do with the couple of millennia of tradition that has grown up around marriage since the writing of the Bible, rather than anything that's explicitly stated within the Bible.

If you disagree with that, that's fine - it really doesn't concern me. But if you're going to dismiss those who disagree with you as "liberals" who "disregard the plain truth" then can I just suggest that if you don't like being mocked by people, it would be a good idea for you not to mock others.

"Sodomy," though not an unforgiveable sin, is certainly highlighted by the Apostles.

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I'm still waiting to see any Scriptural reference to sodomy taking place between people of opposite genders.

David Brider said:

And FWIW, I've got absolutely no interest in mocking people.

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Polycarp_fan said:

I'm a big boy David. Who do you think you are fooling?

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What makes you think I'm trying to fool anyone?

David Brider said:

I'm interested in serious discussion and debate.

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Polycarp_fan said:

It sure doesn't look like it seeing how and what progressive Christians choose as the basis for their theological stand. It is based far more on Humanism than the Gospel. Sodomy and all.

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What (you believe) "progressive Christians choose as the basis for their theological stand" has absolutely no bearing on the desire for serious discussion and debate. I could have absolutely no theological common ground with you, but still desire serious discussion and debate.

As it happens, the basis for my theology is the Bible.

David Brider said:

I don't necessarily agree with some (or indeed a lot) of the things that you and Sacerdote say.

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Polycarp_Fan said:

No "progressive" can. We exist in to entirely different camps.

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No we don't. You and I are both Christians. We may differ on the details of our theology, but nevertheless, we're both people who believe that Jesus Christ died for them, and who have repented of our sin and believe and acknowledge that Jesus is our Saviour and the Lord of our lives. I have no problem accepting you as my brother in Christ, for all our disagreements. It would mean a lot to me in these debates if you would do the same for me.

I somewhat believe you. But if you think "sodomy" is OK for anyone, then it could only exist as appropriate, in complete privacy. Once it is paraded down mainstreet, it is open for public concern.

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I'm not fully au fait with laws in the US, but here in the UK, if two people were to commit any sexual act in public - sodomy or otherwise, they'd fall foul of public decency laws. I suspect that things are fairly similar in the US, and that therefore you mean something rather different when you refer to "sodomy being paraded down mainstreet" to what I'd understand by it.

And just to clarify, I'm not saying that I believe "sodomy is OK for anyone". I'm querying where in the Bible it's described as being wrong for two people of opposite genders to engage in sodomy. If you can point me to the relevant chapter and verse, that would be great.

But homosexuality is not OK anytime for "Christians."

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You've made it quite clear that your understanding of "homosexuality" (i.e., actually engaging in homosexual sex) is not the same as mine, nor that of many other people (i.e., a tendency to experience same-gender attraction). That being the case, I suspect that we're not, at the moment, likely to see eye to eye on this particular issue. For me, the issue of same-gender attraction is not really any different to that of opposite-gender attraction; I've yet to come across any verses of Scripture which address the issue of romantic/physical/sexual attraction, and as far as I can tell people don't choose who to be attracted to, so it seems rather odd to say that any form of attraction (homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual) can be OK or not OK. It's like saying that being lefthanded or having green eyes is OK or not OK.

However, there are numerous threads on that issue. Let's get on with discussing whether or not sodomy is acceptable for opposite-gender couples.

David.