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Gusoceros

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No, you ignore it, because they had no knowledge of a sexual orientation back then, which is why it wasn't mentioned.

I ignore it because it isnt relevant- you want to make this about temptation- it isnt about temptation (read orientation). You are not judged according to your orientation, rather by what you do with the temptation.


This is also irrelevant AND wrong. I have cited time and again the NT verses that note the act.

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."
—Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
—1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
—1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)


I have not once cited doctrine- you are misrepresenting my argument. Please stick to the facts, and quit putting words in my mouth.

G
 
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savedandhappy1

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H8441
תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

abomination.

H8581
תּעב
tâ‛ab
taw-ab'
A primitive root; to loathe, that is, (morally) detest: - (make to be) abhor (-red), (be, commit more, do) abominable (-y), X utterly.

Lev. 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So is abomination a verb, a noun, or a root word in verse 22?
 
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davedjy

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The Blueletterbible definition is more specific:

Tow'ebah

1) a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)


As said, the scholars agree this verse is NOT a moral violation, it is a purity code violation. The menstrual cycle one is mixed in as well, with these verses.

Anyone still care to show me the one about "Thou shall not lie with womankind as with mankind?" (the opposite).
 
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UberLutheran

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So, are you saying the translaters of the KJV didn't do that, when we all know how Godly, and intelligent they were?

Uhmmmmm --- King James was a sodomite. The person whose translation you all idolize was himself a sodomite.

Prithee, forsooth!
 
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ScottBot

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Nice, subjective, thoroughly modern reinvention of Scriptural interpretation.
 
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davedjy

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Nice, subjective, thoroughly modern reinvention of Scriptural interpretation.
Not modern reinvention, I used Scriptural proofs to make my points. Why are you making this about reinvention? LOL!!!!! I reinvented the sin of Sodom mentioned in Ephesians?

Show me where the Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for monogamous, same sex relationship behavior? Are you going to believe that it was destroyed for loving, monogamous relationships not even recognized till the 19th century or what the Bible says?
 
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BigChrisfilm

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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Sodomy
sod·om·y /ˈsɒd
ə
mi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sod-uh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun

1.anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
2.copulation with a member of the same sex.
3.bestiality (def. 4).

[Origin: 1250&#8211;1300; ME sodomie < OF. See Sodom, -y3
]
 
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savedandhappy1

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So... you want to use a word whose definition can be traced to 1250... in relation to writings from +/- 2000 years before?
Anyone else see the logical flaw here?​


If you will look at the Gay Christians thread, you will find where sodomy was being used in 465 AD. So anyone see the logical flaw you are trying to make?​


Having some computer problems but will try and get that link for you.

OOPS told you the wrong thread and year, but here you go.

The story of Sodom has given rise to words in several languages, including English: the word "sodomy", meaning acts (stigmatized as "unnatural vice") such as homosexuality and anal sex and the word "sodomite", meaning one who practices such acts.

In the Middle Ages, the terms "sodomite" and "buggery" were defined as homosexual practices, and the arguably gay Richard I of England was ordered by a priest to keep in mind "the sin of Sodom".

Middle Ages
pl.n.
The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from A.D. 476 to 1453

First century Christian and Jewish opinions

The Epistle of Jude in the New Testament echoes the Genesis narrative and recalls mainly the sexually immoral aspects of Sodom's sins: &#8220;&#8230;just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire&#8221; (v. 7, English Standard Version). The phrase rendered &#8220;unnatural desire&#8221; is literally translated &#8220;strange flesh&#8221;, but it is not entirely clear what it refers to. The ESV translators supply one plausible paraphrase in making the phrase refer to the illicit sexual activity of the Genesis account (cf. the language of the epistle to the Romans 1:21-32), but another theory is that it is just a reference to the &#8220;strange flesh&#8221; of the intended rape victims, who were angels, not men.
The Jewish historian Josephus used the term &#8220;Sodomites&#8221; summarizing the Genesis narrative: &#8220;About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, in so much that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices&#8221; (Antiquities 1.11.1 [2] &#8212; circa A.D. 96). The final element of his assessment goes beyond the Biblical data, even in the New Testament. Nonetheless, this meaning is the primary one used today.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sodomy


 
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BigChrisfilm

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Uhmmmmm --- King James was a sodomite. The person whose translation you all idolize was himself a sodomite.

Prithee, forsooth!
He wasn't gay, that is a lie. Been refuted many times as well.
 
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davedjy

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You are only pulling ONE of the definitions of tow'ebah, but it is agreed upon that the word usage here is within the dietary and ritual/ceremonial laws!
 
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davedjy

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He wasn't gay, that is a lie. Been refuted many times as well.
A sodomite is not someone gay, it is an inhabitor of Sodom. Many straight people RAPED the same sex guest inhabitants, it has NOTHING to do with lustful drive, just control!

Sodomite = inhabitor of Sodom
 
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BigChrisfilm

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A sodomite is not someone gay, it is an inhabitor of Sodom. Many straight people RAPED the same sex guest inhabitants, it has NOTHING to do with lustful drive, just control!

Sodomite = inhabitor of Sodom
Yes, you are correct. It means that, AND homosexuals.
 
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davedjy

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Yes, you are correct. It means that, AND homosexuals.
You haven't proved that by Scriptural standards, only by your doctrinal beliefs, and maybe a dictionary 2nd definition from a cultural inheritance belief. A word did exist for homosexuality at the time...and guess what? it was never used! the word: homophilia. Paul had clear knowledge of the word...never used it once!
 
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Der Alte

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Does anyone else see the blatant contradiction between these two posts?


And OBTW show some historical evidence for the claim that "homophilia existed in the 1st century and is not a 20th century made up word? And I will even give you a link to the Liddell-Scott-Jones Classical Greek lexicon. This lexicon catalogues the use of classical Greek from ca. 800 BC - ca. 200 AD.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform
 
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davedjy

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I said it wasn't recognized in a loving MONOGAMOUS relationship. Why don't you ask, before accusing me of contradicting myself???
 
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savedandhappy1

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A sodomite is not someone gay, it is an inhabitor of Sodom. Many straight people RAPED the same sex guest inhabitants, it has NOTHING to do with lustful drive, just control!

Sodomite = inhabitor of Sodom

The story of Sodom has given rise to words in several languages, including English: the word "sodomy", meaning acts (stigmatized as "unnatural vice") such as homosexuality and anal sex and the word "sodomite", meaning one who practices such acts.

In the Middle Ages, the terms "sodomite" and "buggery" were defined as homosexual practices, and the arguably gay Richard I of England was ordered by a priest to keep in mind "the sin of Sodom".

Middle Ages
pl.n.
The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from A.D. 476 to 1453

First century Christian and Jewish opinions

The Epistle of Jude in the New Testament echoes the Genesis narrative and recalls mainly the sexually immoral aspects of Sodom's sins: “…just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire” (v. 7, English Standard Version). The phrase rendered “unnatural desire” is literally translated “strange flesh”, but it is not entirely clear what it refers to. The ESV translators supply one plausible paraphrase in making the phrase refer to the illicit sexual activity of the Genesis account (cf. the language of the epistle to the Romans 1:21-32), but another theory is that it is just a reference to the “strange flesh” of the intended rape victims, who were angels, not men.
The Jewish historian Josephus used the term “Sodomites” summarizing the Genesis narrative: “About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, in so much that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices” (Antiquities 1.11.1 [2] — circa A.D. 96). The final element of his assessment goes beyond the Biblical data, even in the New Testament. Nonetheless, this meaning is the primary one used today.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sodomy


 
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davedjy

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Did you see how it said "abused themselves w/sodomitical practices"? The practices they did went WAY beyond some sex practice, it was clearly rape.
 
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HisKid1973

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Did you see how it said "abused themselves w/sodomitical practices"? The practices they did went WAY beyond some sex practice, it was clearly rape.

And I guess none were loving or being monogamous, correct? We'll Dave, I have to admit, you do keep this forum active..
 
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HisKid1973

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I said it wasn't recognized in a loving MONOGAMOUS relationship. Why don't you ask, before accusing me of contradicting myself???

Hey if your going to hang with this guy you need to follow all his advice correct..Or do you cherry pick from him?

So what do expect of homosexuals in the church? Campolo agrees with Justin and says that they must be called to celibacy. But not just call them to it, but for the church to become their family.
 
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