Socialist Ideologies

[Caedmon]

Are Socialism and Communism compatible with Catholicism?

 

[Dream]

No.

 

[Cat59]

Communism, no.
But socialism comes in many different forms, some of which bear no relationship to each other (eg the socialism of Arthur Scargill in the UK and Tony Blair are as far apart as day and night.) Some would say that is because what Blair stands for is not really socialism at all...

 

[jukesk9]

Are Socialism and Communism compatible with Catholicism?

No. Both put the welfare of the state first. Private property ownership is outlawed. The individual is discouraged. An all powerful state government wields total control over the people. Socialism, however, allows some control at the local level. Both, especially communism, discourage religion and take an atheist stance. The theory is that people divided into social classes and different belief systems will not be able to achieve total harmony and therefore equality can not exist unless classes and religion are outlawed. Christianity teaches we are responsible to God. Socialism and Communism conflict with that in teaching that we are responsible to the state.

 

[Jamza]

I think Jesus was a 'socialist' because he cared for everyone, having more time for the lowly who came to him, and constantly advocating care of the poor. Not Communism though, i'm a sociology student and its a flawed theory anyway, despite its inherant atheism

 

[Alexis OCA]

I think Jesus was a 'socialist' because he cared for everyone, having more time for the lowly who came to him, and constantly advocating care of the poor. Not Communism though, i'm a sociology student and its a flawed theory anyway, despite its inherant atheism

Socialism = redistributionism = theft. And brother, thou shalt NOT steal.

 

[Jamza]

Though according to Christ, as Christians we should give out of our abundance to those who have less. It has to be given joyfully of course, (1+2 Corinthians), and not enforced.

 

[Alexis OCA]

Though according to Christ, as Christians we should give out of our abundance to those who have less. It has to be given joyfully of course, (1+2 Corinthians), and not enforced.

Of course! and that my friend is NOT socialism. THAT is charity.

 

[Jamza]

Hehe, I'm getting scared now GregChant! All I meant was that Jesus helped the poor and was a friend to the outcast, and that's sort of the idea of socialism. I'm not a socialist or anything, but I think a society where everyone is included is a good thing, for example, I always make friends with the unpopular people in my school and try to share Christ's love with them. They're often a lot more responsive than those who think they have it all together.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Hehe, I'm getting scared now GregChant! All I meant was that Jesus helped the poor and was a friend to the outcast, and that's sort of the idea of socialism. I'm not a socialist or anything, but I think a society where everyone is included is a good thing, for example, I always make friends with the unpopular people in my school and try to share Christ's love with them. They're often a lot more responsive than those who think they have it all together.

I understand what you are saying Jamza, but Jesus represented the stated ideal of socialism, the rich help the poor, and each one looks out for their fellow man.

The reality is that forced socialism achieves to opposite of its stated intent. It encourages theivery and covetousness. Stealing wealth from those that have it, and teaching class warfare. This is not only not Catholic, but it is against the Ten Commandments. See commandments 7 and 10

For the ideals of socialism to be met, it must be voluntary. As the Bible says, whosoever will, come and drink of the waters of life freely.

 

[Markh]

Socialism = redistributionism = theft. And brother, thou shalt NOT steal.

That is complete and utter nonsense!

Absolute Rubbish!

How can you say that!

To be Catholic is to be at the very least redistributist! and in my opinion a Socialist!

I seriously think you should look at the catechism and perhaps look at some papal encyclicals. You are very much wrong!

 

[Dream]

I seriously think you should look at the catechism and perhaps look at some papal encyclicals. You are very much wrong!

You got it:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with "communism" or "socialism." She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of "capitalism," individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market." Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

 

[Markh]

I have said it before! Americans seem to think republican economics is compatible with Catholicism when the 2 are absolutely and fundamentally opposed to eachother.

I believe PeterPaul will tell you this (I think after investigation he changed to become a redistributist)

Catholics need to adhere to a form of social justice beyond Nozick's ideas of property rights being fundamental. This is unfair according to sacred scripture, sacred tradition and papal encyclicals!

Please I implore you, read up on the issue!

 

[PeterPaul]

You got it:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with "communism" or "socialism." She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of "capitalism," individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market." Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

Dream, you are man! Excellent!

 

[Markh]

You got it:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with "communism" or "socialism."

please, Dream Theatre you have to realise that it is only if atheistic or totalitarian ideologies are attached to socialism when it is bad!

socialism in itself is not evil, atheistic socialism obviously is.

But socialism in the broadest definition is the way the disciples lived, pooling their wealth.

Have you ever associated the word socialism beyond the traditional conception of "revolutionary socialism", you know we have had "Christian socialism" in Europe, most countries have "Christian socialist" parties.

If you would like to know which parties the Church endorses in Europe, it is not the neo liberal free market parties! No! it is those "Christian socialist" parties which favour redistribution and an option for the poor.

 

[Alexis OCA]

That is complete and utter nonsense!

Absolute Rubbish!

How can you say that!

To be Catholic is to be at the very least redistributist! and in my opinion a Socialist!

I seriously think you should look at the catechism and perhaps look at some papal encyclicals. You are very much wrong!

This is how I can say that: Do some reading yourself.

“The fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decisions disappears.”
—Pope John Paul II, Centesimus Annus

“The modern business economy has positive aspects. Its basis is human freedom exercised in the economic field.”
—Pope John Paul II, Centesimus Annus

“There exists another form of ownership which is becoming no less important than land: the possession of know-how, technology and skill. The wealth of the industrialized nations is based much more on this kind of ownership than on natural resources.”
—Pope John Paul II, Centesimus Annus

“Besides the earth, man's principal resource is man himself.”
—Pope John Paul II, Centesimus Annus

“Where self-interest is suppressed, it is replaced by a burdensome system of bureaucratic control that dries up the wellsprings of initiative and creativity.”
—Pope John Paul II, Centesimus Annus

“The first and fundamental structure for 'human ecology' is the family, in which man receives his first ideas about truth and goodness and learns what it means to love and be loved, and thus what it means to be a person.”
—Pope John Paul II, Centesimus Annus

“If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”
—Encyclical of Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno, no. 120, On reconstruction of the social order, May 15, 1931 [contributed by Michael Etchison]


IT's all about freedom, not coercion.

 

[Stefania777]

I think Jesus was a 'socialist' because he cared for everyone, having more time for the lowly who came to him, and constantly advocating care of the poor. Not Communism though, i'm a sociology student and its a flawed theory anyway, despite its inherant atheism

I agree, that is the main reason why I support socialism.

 

[PeterPaul]

Darn, such a great conversation and I'm at work and can not contribute! Shucks!

 

[Dream]

Pure socialism rids all people of their own private property and personal possesions. It encourages sloth and low economic production. We defintely need to help the poor in our society, but the answer is not to pool all of our money together into one common fund and trust a small number of individuals to direct our income in ways that suit them best.

 

[Dream]

Darn, such a great conversation and I'm at work and can not contribute! Shucks!

Hey, if you were self-employed, you wouldn't have this problem.