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It's not the fact that Romans conducted censuses that is in question. It's the notion that they would require citizens to return to their hometowns for them. I'm not aware of any source outside the bible that makes this claim. It's something unnecessary that would turn a long and difficult task into an extremely long and very difficult task.
Not that I can think of. Faith is a reality for the spirit born.
Seems like a silly point, when a census is taken its a major undertaking. Requiring Jews to go to the City of David to be numbered has never seemed like an odd fact to me.
How was a census conducted in the Roman Empire?
They sent out census takers from Rome. This wasn't just for records -- it had to do with taxation.
There is a consensus among historians that it was entirely implausible that people would have to travel simply to have census information recorded. That is almost certainly an embellishment by the Gospel writer.
eudaimonia,
Mark
The point is whether its the extreme of killing people or something less they are mentally unstable. Someone who thinks they are God dont just have a normal life in every other department and have this one delusion about them being god. It doesn't work that way. The disorder will be filtered through their character traits across the board. Someone who seriously thinks they are god or Jesus will have signs that you can tell they are not of a stable mind or emotion.You're wrong about this... someone can be delusional and still have a life that would appear relatively normal from the outside. They can have meaningful relationships, jobs, and hobbies. Everyone who is crazy isn't necessarily some stark raving lunatic who goes around killing people or living in isolation like a hermit. This isn't something you can dispute, I've come across such people in my line of work... I could give you examples.
Giving the example for Jesus being under delusion of Him saying he was God is not an example alone. If it was true He would also say this. Plus its the way He says it. He doesn't display ego centric characteristics such as being self absorbed by just saying He is the way. This would come across in all that He says and it doesn't. In fact He was often trying to minimize His status by telling some not to tell others that He healed them. Even when He was on trial He doesn't go on about it and doesn't really say much. He simply says when asked if He was the Christ the Son of God, you have said it.With that in mind, I think a lot of the behavior of Jesus would resemble someone under the delusion that they're god...possibly someone with narcissistic personality disorder. We could start talking about examples if you like... I'd probably start with the most obvious one... he went around telling people he is god, that the only way to heaven was through him, and that he was basically perfect. When you think about it, the entirety of christianity is centered around Jesus. It's hard for me to imagine a more self-centered religion...with the exception of those cults that others have mentioned earlier in the thread... particularly Jim Jones or the Branch Davidians of Waco.
I disagree, He doesn't show this at all. It is the opposite. You will have to give me some examples.A lot of aspects of narcissistic personality disorder fits Jesus like a glove. The guy even claimed his execution was something "he" was doing for the benefit of everyone else. It would indicate an overwhelming desire for control that distorts perception of reality.
The point is you know that you dont have 100% evidence for the decisions you made and that it is something you have decided to do beyond the evidence. Thats because you have your finger on the pulse in your life generally anyway. There are different times i our lives where we have to make decisions based on trust and faith. Like in business , investments and especially love.I explain[FONT="]ed why[FONT="].[/FONT] [FONT="]H[/FONT]aving an open mind is great[/FONT], that's not the issue here. Accept[FONT="]ing things to be true without any evidence is the dangerous part.[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]R[/FONT]egardless [/FONT][/FONT]of what salvati[FONT="]on is, [FONT="]many actions in the old testament (and in the new for that matter) are utterly barbaric.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]We take actions that some sa[FONT="]y maybe barbaric now in response to the wrongs of others so that we can keep a safe and stable world. We bo[FONT="]mbed many with nuclear weapons and fried them to a crisp. Many suffered and have done for a long time. We have taken ha[FONT="]rsh actions in the name of justice[FONT="]. But with God He is worthy to be judge and punish[FONT="]. He [FONT="]knows what will happen and what the results will be. He never punished an innocent and He spares many who were sinners and repented[FONT="] all the time. So it shows He is measured and worthy to be a [FONT="]righteous[/FONT] judge.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT] [FONT="][FONT="]Well [FONT="]first[/FONT] off all I hear time and time again people taking what they dont fully understand and take a small snippet of a verse and use this as an example of how bad God is. They are using mans morals and judgem[FONT="]ents to decide what is right and wrong/ acceptable and unacceptable. Yet we know man is fallible and cannot be a wise and worthy judge as he is limited and gets it wrong. So we are not in a position to make th[FONT="]ese [FONT="]judgements[/FONT]. [FONT="][FONT="]But God says that He is just and worthy. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]Secondly, if we only have "limited human views", how do you know god's judgment is just?
[/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT="]Saying that doesn't exactly separate you from the fundamentalists...[/quote[FONT="]]
[FONT="]True so it comes down to the fruits you bear. The exampl[FONT="]e you live. If your extreme and a [FONT="]fundamentalists[/FONT] then this will be seen. [FONT="]Jesus said that you will bear good fruits is you are truly following Him and you can tell a person by wha[FONT="]t they are doing.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]Why would I accept something with[FONT="]out evidence, and how do you know things are more dangerous "with the wa[FONT="]ys of the world"?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]The ways of the world are proof in themselves. We only have to look at some of the ways we have set examples for our young or the ways in which we promote [FONT="]certain life styles. The results that are [FONT="]borne[/FONT] out of this. [FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]We often make wrong choices only to find in the [FONT="]future[/FONT] by the fallout it caused. This happens over and o[FONT="]ver again.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]It doesn't say that [FONT="]at all.[/quote[FONT="]]
[FONT="]Oh [FONT="]I though it was to do with the person was right in what they believe and this [FONT="]is[/FONT] the[FONT="] most important thing. That there is no objective [FONT="]morals to control anyone. [FONT="]I though we were living in a me society and its all about what I want and no one can tell me what to do. There is no God and we dont need one because we can do it all ourselves.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]T[FONT="]he irony is societies based on theocratic laws often ge[FONT="]t it far wo[FONT="]rse tha[FONT="]n those societies with secular governments.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]Studies have shown that those who have religious beliefs have better lives and help others more. There has been examples in the past where it is not even a theocratic ruling. Its more about man twisting religion and adding in their own evil intentions. If you look at what the belief said[FONT="] they are [FONT="]way off the track. [FONT="]But religion and [FONT="]politics[/FONT] should mix. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]The studies show that the [FONT="]majority of depressi[FONT="]on, teen pregnancy[FONT="] cases, along with [FONT="]the highest crime rates and STD transmission rates [FONT="]emanate[/FONT] from the [FONT="]"bible belt" states. If your assertions are true, why does the states with the highest propensity of religion consistently rank towards the bottom of the [FONT="]pack o[FONT="]n living conditions compared to less religious stat[FONT="]es?[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]Our comparative analysis of religion and marriage in the United States reveals remarkable similarities in the benefits that are associated with these two social institutions, and also in the pathways through which they operate. Being married and being involved in religious activities are generally associated with positive effects in several areas, including physical and mental health, economic outcomes, and the process of raising children.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]Do you know what a con man[FONT="]'s best f[FONT="]riend is? [FONT="]Someone who believe[FONT="]s claims stric[FONT="]tly upon faith and is unconcerned with seeing evid[FONT="]ence for the[FONT="]ir claims.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]Of course and there is the saying once bitten twice shy. This happens to many and religions [FONT="]doesn't[/FONT] have to be involved. This is the nature of life. But it also shows that life has times when we need to trust and [FONT="]have faith and cant always have direct evidence. [FONT="]The point is that if you live b[FONT="]y that method of normally checking things and seeing that you are not off track and being deluded ie self checks and getting to know yourself and your weaknesses and strengths. Yo[FONT="]u will be [FONT="]mainly[/FONT] on the ball. [FONT="]But there maybe times when you cant have all the [FONT="]evidence[/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]. This is often love and if we always wanted proof before we acted the[FONT="]n we would be robots and come [FONT="]across[/FONT] cold and statistical.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][q[FONT="]uote][/FONT]Skeptics ar[FONT="]en't immune to being conned[FONT="], but it's far harder to successfully pull it off. There's a reason behind that.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]some of the best [FONT="]business men have been co[FONT="]nned.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT="]Of course and you only have to come on here for a while as well to know. I take [FONT="]this[/FONT] approach in all that I do. Get three quotes for everything at least, d[FONT="]ont take a persons word for it straight away unless I know them and can trust them. Compare results double check and do [FONT="]research[/FONT]. In fact I would say I do this more often than some non religious do. [FONT="]You can also be [FONT="]deceived[/FONT] and [FONT="]have a certain faith in scientists and what people say without religion. Its a human trait.And what have you done to test the words and prophets that are described in the Bible? Have you r[FONT="]ead any books designed to sharply critique the b[FONT="]ible or the overall C[FONT="]h[/FONT]ristian [/FONT][/FONT]message?
[FONT="]M[FONT="]uch of what is evidence for me with God is something that [FONT="]is personal. Like I sa[FONT="]id I see God in nature and the universe and life. I see it in the way a persons life is changed and the affects God can have when all else has failed. What the [FONT="]disciples[/FONT] say in the bible about what happens when you come to Jesus such as what Paul says I can relate to as it has happen and is happening in my life. So its not just words on pap[FONT="]er it is [FONT="]alive and active in my life. Sometimes the proof is in the pudding. People may have all sorts of objections and views about what something is or [FONT="]isn't[/FONT] but it just works and is prove[FONT="]n by the end results.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT]Yes but you have to understand that a part of believing is based on faith. It doesn't mean you jump when someone says jump. Or do something that is ridiculous. You still have your reasoning , logic and common sense. You still have your senses. Belief in God still uses all this but it can then step beyond that. So you are not arriving there blindly and stumbling. I look at it with science. Science is how we can use that method to find out and get to the point of quantum physics.Actually, the best way to fool someone is to convince them they don't need to see the evidence to back your claims. Any organization which promotes accepting their message on faith is an organization you should immediately be suspicious of.
We have the laws of physics and we can see how they work. But now we are at the point of almost nothing becoming something the laws cannot be applied. Quantum physics is doing some unusual things that break those laws of Physics. But we still know that it is part of what makes up what we see even though it doesn't make sense. Science can get us to the point of how life began where something has come from nothing. But now it has to consider that there maybe more to things than just the observable and testable that is at work.
Like I said you still have to use your reasoning and logic. You dont abandon all this and become a dummy. But plenty of people have been fooled by many things. Look at dictatorships many people stand up for the bad person. People though Edie Armin was great for a while there same as Hitler. Same as most of our politicians who end up letting us down.So how do you know he wasn't really genuine? We have plenty of witnesses who said he performed miracles and healed the sick. He also claimed he was the son of god, so that has to count for something too, right?
But I guarantee that with those like Jim Jones there were signs along the way that were a dead giveaway. Either he did something like took lots of money and had private bank accounts or there were rumors he slept with lots of women or kids. There is always something.
[FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="][FONT="]N[FONT="]ot if it were true, or not if it were mythic[FONT="]al. I lean towards the mythica[FONT="]l side mys[FONT="]elf.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]There [FONT="]wasn't[/FONT] time to create a myth around him. Much of what was written was soon afterwards. [FONT="]Paul's[/FONT] [FONT="]letters[/FONT] were written very soon afterwards. Some of the claims to miracles like [FONT="]Jesus resurrecting were around very soon afterwards. Those sort of things are [FONT="]normally[/FONT] based on some truth. But to make up something from scratch [FONT="]that [FONT="]didn't[/FONT] happen takes a [FONT="]time to create. Plus there were other non biblical sources that were calling him a [FONT="]sorcerer[/FONT] because of the mira[FONT="]cles that were associated with Him.
[FONT="]Plus the way the [FONT="]movement[/FONT] exploded soon after Jesus died and rose indicates that something big [FONT="]happened to make many stand up and become [FONT="]courageous[/FONT]. Many went on to die for their beliefs and become [FONT="]martyrs[/FONT] themselves. The church grew to the out[FONT="]reaches of the empire.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][FONT="][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]I have read some of these. There is also recent news that Jesus was married and had kids from new discoveries. I always like to read up on different things about the subject so why not. I like to understand where opposing views come from as this allows me to see why they are thinking this way. It ads perspective and gives you better grounding.If you want I can refer [FONT="]you on to a book or two on the topic. It's alw[FONT="]ays good to hear [FONT="]viewpoints that challenge your own.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
The point is whether its the extreme of killing people or something less they are mentally unstable. Someone who thinks they are God dont just have a normal life in every other department and have this one delusion about them being god. It doesn't work that way. The disorder will be filtered through their character traits across the board. Someone who seriously thinks they are god or Jesus will have signs that you can tell they are not of a stable mind or emotion.
It could stem from narcissistic behavior, bi polar or emotional manipulation. It takes a detached mind to think that you are truly God or Jesus or a king or some great person. It is even verging on slight schizophrenia. But in any case they will show traits in other ways like being critical of others, being the center of attention, not wanting to admit they are wrong, be anti social and have disregard for authority ect. There are reasons why they have a god complex or think they are Jesus. This is to do with them feeling they have some personality deficiency, inadequacy or self worth issues and they are compensating with a inflated sense of self worth and ego. Normal people dont do this and dont need to do this and are just themselves. I also work in this field and have studied it.
An in-depth list of 100 traits of narcissists to better defend against narcissism
A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of complex or intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks, or may regard their personal opinions as unquestionably correct.[1][2] The individual may disregard the rules of society and require special consideration or privileges.
What Is the God Complex? (with pictures)
Characteristics include arrogance, bullying or manipulating others, being judgmental and believing that he or she is never wrong. Someone who has a god complex might also be prone to becoming angry when things do not go his or her way, might be poor at interpersonal communication and might not be receptive to criticism. He or she also might try to exert a great deal of influence in various matters or relish having power, authority or control.
Giving the example for Jesus being under delusion of Him saying he was God is not an example alone. If it was true He would also say this. Plus its the way He says it. He doesn't display ego centric characteristics such as being self absorbed by just saying He is the way. This would come across in all that He says and it doesn't. In fact He was often trying to minimize His status by telling some not to tell others that He healed them. Even when He was on trial He doesn't go on about it and doesn't really say much. He simply says when asked if He was the Christ the Son of God, you have said it.
But else where He doesn't go on about Himself apart from those particular times when He is clear about Him being the Messiah that was prophesied and the way to God. He is humble and this was shown when He washed the feet of the disciples before His death. He said He came to be a servant and be obedient to His father. These are all opposing traits to someone who has a god delusion or a personality disorder.
There are many examples that show Jesus was humble and didn't think He was great or special in a ego sense. He hung with prostitutes and tax collectors. He was crucified an innocent man among criminals. His character traits are shown in the bible to be a man who was compassionate, stable, loving, unselfish and forgiving. Many of the things He taught were wise and good principles to live by. This wasnt a man who had any personality disorders that you would associate with a person who was deluded in thinking they were god or Jesus when they weren't.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.
I disagree, He doesn't show this at all. It is the opposite. You will have to give me some examples.
I don't even understand why this particular element of the story would be "embellished", its more mater of fact in the narrative? Also, by commandment of the Torah, the Jews were required to travel to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the 3 festivals. What would be so impractical about requiring them to register with the Roman census in their home town?
"From regular censuses carried out in Egypt, something is known of how Roman provincial (as opposed to earlier, Empire-wide censuses of Roman citizens) censuses were carried out: the head of each household, usually the eldest male, had to provide details of his property and who lived on it, including family members, employees, lodgers and slaves. The name, age and relationship to the head of the household was provided."[11]
Wiki source:
Sabine R. Hübner, The Family in Roman Egypt: A Comparative Approach to Intergenerational Solidarity and Conflict (Cambridge University Press, 2013) page 26.
UB on the birth of Jesus August 21, 7 BC
Paper 122 - Birth and Infancy of Jesus | Urantia Book | Urantia Foundation
.
Why would you quote that source? It doesn't say anything about having to return to your hometown for a census...it only supports my assertion that this is an embellishment in the bible.
Why would they add it? It dramatized the birth of Jesus. His birth sounds a lot less "miraculous" when it's had at home like everyone else.
Born in a barn because the Days Inn was full....on a trip to register for the census? My gosh, don't take that miracle away from us.
The discussion was about errors in the bible...I pointed one out. You can accept that or not.
There are plenty of errors in the Bible, the Roman census in 8 BC (7 BC for the Palestinian Kingdom) isn't one of them. Neither has anyone proven that citizens weren't required to register in their home city.
Well pretty much every historian disagrees with you.
I'm ok with that, they don't have the UB, besides, they don't even know for certain when Jesus was born, so it's hard for one to think they could be so certain, or that it's even unreasonable to think a citizen would need to register for the census in his home precinct.
Why would they add it? It dramatized the birth of Jesus. His birth sounds a lot less "miraculous" when it's had at home like everyone else.
My understanding is that the addition of this fake detail is an attempt to explain how 'Jesus of Nazareth' was reallllly born in Bethlehem, which would be a better fit for a Messiah.
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