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so... What is the Truth ?

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Micaiah

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Okay, lets rephrase that sentence to "That tree has leaves". If that tree had leaves, and I stated as much I would be stating a trusim, true, but I would still be telling the truth.

If someone claimed the tree did not have leaves, even though it did, and the person understood the generally accepted concept of a tree, then they would not be telling the truth. If they turned around and claimed that the tree didn't have leaves though it did and afterward claimed their definition didn't include leaves they would be equivocating on terms and would not be telling the truth.
 
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artybloke

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but I would still be telling the truth.
Click to expand...

Yes, you would still be telling the truth. But - for instance - is a novel like Nicholas Nickelby (Dickens) - also "telling the truth" by telling a fictional story? I would argue that it is - in fact, as far as "ultimate truth" (the truth that is about the meaning of the world, rather than a mere description of that world), Charles Dickens, I would argue, gets closer to The Truth than does the description of a tree, because it is about things like right and wrong, how and why people behave etc etc. Poets, prophets, novelists, writers of proverbs, mystics all exist in the same relationship to Truth. They're not dealing with truths they can measure. Truths we can measure don't make us change our lives and follow them. Religious truths do; I will not be following trees because they have leaves any time soon.

The description of a tree - indeed, all science, which is basically descriptive - is not "ultimate" - it doesn't have any value attached to it. Whether the earth is formed in six days or 4.5 billion years has no value attached to it: or as philosphers put it, is does not equal ought. Ultimate, spiritual and religious truth is about "ought" but it's not about "is."

Even God's "existence" is not like the existence of anything else that exists. If God exists, then He is the uncaused causer, the ground of our being; he doesn't exist in a causal relationship with anything else that exists. He is because he is. I realise I may be getting tied up into linguistic knots here, but that's not surprising. God cannot be measured.
 
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Micaiah

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If I fabricated a story to convey a certain moral or spiritual principle and gave people the impression that it was based on events that actually occured I would be lying. The end doesn't justify the means.

You seem to differentiate between spiritual truth and truth relating to the physical world. The historical facts of Jesus death, life and resurrection are fundamental to the Christian body of truth we call doctrine. If they did not occur, we have basis for our Christian faith. That idea is implicit in the Nicene Creed.
 
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shernren

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But not everybody who reads Genesis 1 gets the impression that it was based on events that actually occurred. On the other hand, Jesus regularly fabricated stories to convey spiritual principles, telling them as if they actually happened, when in actual fact they could not possibly have happened given the social structure of the day. Was Jesus a liar?
 
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artybloke

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If I fabricated a story to convey a certain moral or spiritual principle and gave people the impression that it was based on events that actually occured I would be lying.
Click to expand...

So you'll only accept something as fictional if it has the word FICTION typed across it? I suspect that for the first readers, they were much less interested in whether it was "factual" or not.

Yes, I do distinguish between factual and spiritual truth. Sometimes, however, spiritual truth impacts on the physical world. That's when you get the resurection.
 
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Deep_MindQuest

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An Honest Man Alters His Ideas To Fit The Truth.
A Dishonest Man Alters The Truth To Fit His Ideas What is Truth? How can one know it? ...Thy Word is TRUTH. John 17:17 [font=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Truth is not arbitray as only God is Truth. We may scrutinize everthing else though to attempt scrutinizing God is futile. This is where science fails for in so doing it elevates itself to godhood.[/font] some say "The difference between what is real and what is not is totally up to us."

Uh no, reality is just that, reality. What we chose to accept as TRUTH is what is totally up to us. This is a HUGE difference, and needs to be corrected. The truth is that God has accomplished all that is necessary for salvation by sending His Son to die on the cross as a sacrifice for a person's sins. The truth is in Jesus.
 
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Deep_MindQuest

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For the Christian, the ultimate expression of truth is found in the Bible, in Jesus who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." (John 14:6). Of course, most philosophers and skeptics will dismiss His claim, but for the Christian, He is the mainstay of hope, security, and guidance. Jesus, who walked on water, claimed to be divine, and rose from the dead, said that He was the truth and the originator of truth.If Jesus is wrong, then we should ignore Him. But, if He is right, then it is true that we should listen to Him. The eyewitnesses wrote what they saw. They were with Him. They watched Him perform many miracles, heal the sick, calm a storm with a command, and even rise from the dead.Either you believe or dismiss these claims. If you dismiss them, that is your prerogative. But, if you accept them, then you are faced with decisions to make about Jesus.What will you believe about Him? What will you decide about Him? Is He true? Is what He said true? Truth conforms to reality. Jesus performed many miracles and rose from the dead.
 
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Deep_MindQuest

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perhaps we could look further look at truth be determining what it is not. Truth is not error. Truth is not self-contradictory. Truth is not deception. Of course, it could be true that someone is being deceptive, but the deception itself isn't truth. In relativism, all points of view are equally valid and that all truth is relative to the individual. If this were true, then it would seem that this is the only truth relativism would have to offer.But, the problem is that in reality, relativism isn't true for the following basic reason. If what is true for me is that relativism is false, then is it true that relativism is false? 1) If you say no, then what is true for me is not true and relativism is false. 2) If you say yes, then relativism is false. Relativism seems to defy the very nature of truth; namely, that it is not self contradictory.
 
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The Lady Kate

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Micaiah said:
If I fabricated a story to convey a certain moral or spiritual principle and gave people the impression that it was based on events that actually occured I would be lying. The end doesn't justify the means.
Click to expand...

Suppose you didn't "give people the impression," but some people still got that impression despite being told the contrary... are you still a liar to people who misunderstood the truth?
 
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charityagape

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?What were the social structures of the day that made the parables impossible? And which parables? Most were pretty vague examples to illustrate a point, what would be impossible about a woman searching for coins or a farmer sewing a field?
 
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