So Many Questions......

Henaynei · Dec 26, 2003

Henaynei said:
LC,

That curse was rescended by G-d later - guys - who remembers where??

Ok --- I found it myself

Read this....

The Problem of the Curse on Jeconiah in Relation to the Genealogy of Jesus/Yeshua

and these....

MESSIAH TO DESCEND FROM JEHOIACHIN & ZERUBBABEL-HOW CAN THAT BE?

JESUS GENEALOGY: Q & A

Could Messiah be a Descendant of Jehoiachin and Zerubabel?

I hope these help!!

Talmidah · Dec 26, 2003

Henaynei said:
LC,

That curse was rescended by G-d later - guys - who remembers where??

I don't remember where, but I remember hearing that the curse became no longer in effect sometime around the time of Nebuchadnezzer....

Hopefully someone knows more about this

koilias · Dec 26, 2003

Who were the magi?

Puzzling over this, I've actually struck on a theory...I'll run it by you guys. See what you think.

First, I can buy Haneyni's theory: "magus" is used to refer to Eastern magicians, usually Egyptian, Chaldean or Persian, at least that's the common conception of the term in ancient documents. They were people learned in astrology, magic, hermetic and arcane knowledge. But since they came from the east to Israel, chances are good they are Chaldean or Persian. They could be Jews from Babylon or Persia, versed in Jewish mysticism (a kind of arcane knowledge) and thus called "magi", indeed Simon Magus, a Samaritan Jew, was called that because he knew and practiced magic, even though he was a Samaritan and not a Zoroastrian, etc.

But what if they were Zoroastrian? This is somewhat puzzling, because as far as I know, Zoroastrians had nothing in their beliefs that prophesied that a kingly Messiah figure would come from the Jews. But remember, magi studied hermetic knowledge, and hermetic knowledge in the eastern world was widely disseminated across all eastern peoples: in its essence arcane knowledge is eclectic, a hodge-podge of beliefs, mystic ideas, magical formulas and rituals from many sources, especially from Egyptian and Chaldean priestly traditions. They were sort of the "doctors" of their time, because magic was primarily used to heal people. The magi prided themselves in their wide learning, and coveted each other's powers, so it does make very good sense that these magi were versed in Jewish prophesy and beliefs and would have known about such things as the book of Daniel.

In fact, if they came from Persia, they might have even kept secret traditions whose ultimate source came directly from the prophet Daniel--remember, Daniel was a prophet not only to the Jews, but to Nebuchadnezzar and to Darius the Mede! Daniel's fame spread far and wide, and he was placed high on the priestly hierarchy of the kings' courts that he served, meaning he had many gentile priests sitting at his feet. We must not underestimate the kind of impact he probably had on the religious practices and beliefs the gentiles!

In fact, Daniel, in the Persian Empire, may have been considered a Persian prophet whose Jewish identity was inconsequential in the eyes of the cosmopolitan Persians and Medes. Just as he was given a Chaldean name by Nebuchadnezzar, he may even have been given a Persian name and identity: Zarathrustra! (Zoroaster). Maybe the Persians got monotheism from a Jewish prophet!

Just a few facts about Zoroaster:
1) The Persians said he came from the nether parts of the Empire. He just showed up one day, and his origins are obscure.
2) Zoroaster's friends were thrown into a fire once and miraculously survived.
3) One day the Persian king got angry at Zoroaster's filialty to Ahura Mazda, because he refused to worship any other diety, so the king threw him in prison. The next day, the king wakes up and finds that his horse has miraculously lost his legs. Right away the king converted to Zoroaster's religion, and from thereon out commanded his people to worship Ahura Mazda in exclusion to the other gods.

Sound familiar??

LibertyChic · Dec 26, 2003

Henaynei said:
MESSIAH TO DESCEND FROM JEHOIACHIN & ZERUBBABEL-HOW CAN THAT BE?

I hope these help!!

You do realize, don't you, that this particular site is, as far as I can tell, showing proof as to why Jesus is not the Messiah?

Achichem · Dec 26, 2003

LibertyChic said:
An adjective is a describing word. So the Son then is a description, so to speak, of the Father? Yet, he was also a person, which we cannot forget.

Ah, Not quite!
As I said I do not see Son and the Father as different people, so I do indeed forget that. To me they are 100% the same person, there are names to me we attach to systems to help our minds understand.
And no I did not mean him an adjective in that way, though I see how you may have got that idea.
Since I see them as the same person, all I am saying about the uses noun, adjective and verb. Are functions of the same entity.
Allow me to explain further.
An adjective is used to describe a noun, but I did not apply that to the father, but I said he is the adjective of G-d. What I am trying to say is that he applies G-d to other nouns.

Maybe a short explanation when this idea sprang from will help.
The Rabbi was talking about the purity effect, the one where if a man did not purify himself before the LORD he would fall dead. It got me thinking; G-d did not always interact in this way and considering Yeshua implied clam to be G-d; it got me thinking what if G-d had a system of interaction, that allow applcation and prevented the purity effect.

As we all do, think about it there is your thinking process which can not interact(Principle of mind fusion[if one has a positive thought and the other a negative thought they cancel the each other out, if one is finite and the other infinite the infinite takes over completly due to this process.]) it is through another system that that acts or inteactionf of sharing takes palce, I call this ones adjective.

Cause your applying yourself to other nouns (things), it your system of interaction.

Then there is your power, your cause and effect function which allow one to effect it's environment. I call this your verb.

Yet these system are not of themselves they are interdependent and hence one.
Remember the only reason we think Yeshua is separate from G-d is that he had a mans body, yet to me that means nothing.

Also, I has been ask of me the wouldnt then all of G-d died that day on the cross, I of course answer no the reason being that since G-d only put a system of himself under the human condition,even through throught he connection of that system the whole G-d was there.

Of course this is raw heresy to many, and put me out on my own, but I dont think G-d minds as He knows that I care not for trivial matters such as these, to which he has never put the focus on, other then telling us one thing. the LORD thy G-d is One

Which, of course, is how I had been taught my whole life. That they are three distinct and seperate persons, yet one. Yet another analogy is the "pie." Take a cherry pie...you can slice it into three seperate, equal and yet distinct pieces, yet the filling runs all together and you cannot really seperate that filling out. It is all the same stuff.

I have read over the trinity doctrine a few times, I have never understand it, so how can I believe it, and these analogy only seem to feed that misunderstanding.Same for you, it sounds?

Sorry to interrupt again.... if the Son is the body, than what are the believers? I thought we were the body? Not trying to be argumentative, really. Just trying to sort it all out in m'head <grin>

ya that why I put the relative part in, you see when I talk about this I am of course isolating this to the mind or the G-dhead, and not the whole of G-d, and I have good reason.
You see it is my belief that:
HaShem(YHWH) is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit(one person[mind])
El is Father, Son and Holy Spirit (one person[mind])
Referring merely to the essential part of G-d, the rest of G-d, the real body of G-d is referred to by Elohim(family of G-d), which is of course plural, yet of course as one will learn with Elohim, there is a higharchy starting from El.

Sa'Halamway,
Datsar

LibertyChic · Dec 27, 2003

Unfortunately, your line of thinking is one I cannot follow....lol...."I just don't get it," but that's ok. I do appreciate you trying to explain your point of view on the subject.

DaTsar said:
I have read over the trinity doctrine a few times, I have never understand it, so how can I believe it, and these analogy only seem to feed that misunderstanding.Same for you, it sounds?

Well, yes. That's why I'm here, questioning everyone and everything and spending nearly every waking moment researching and (re)learning everything that I took to be truth.

While your ideas you present are interesting, I keep going back to scripture (the Tanach, mainly) to see how it specifically points to Yeshua as the Messiah. The more I research, the more it seems to point in the opposite direction, much to my dismay. This is especially true as I compare it to NT scripture. Questions that have nagged me in the back of my mind for years are suddenly all coming to the surface. I can no longer just brush them aside with the simple excuse, "G-d knows what He's doing," or "Well, I just have to take it on faith (that the scriptures are correct and there are no descrepancies)."

This is not a particularly easy or fun journey G-d has set me upon.

Achichem · Dec 27, 2003

LibertyChic said:
Unfortunately, your line of thinking is one I cannot follow....lol...."I just don't get it," but that's ok. I do appreciate you trying to explain your point of view on the subject.

I would not worry about it as I said this is a very trivial issue...

You do believe that the father and son have a connection of some sort don't you?

What matter is it what that relationship is, or how it works? Do you think those are the Gifts G-d is looking at you or me to invest? How may one invest them?if one cannot what value are they?

I know this may sound odd to you, but I have been there too, my best advice is to take it slow and yes study but use your energy to follow and to learn purfiy yourself,and how to follow.

Well, yes. That's why I'm here, questioning everyone and everything and spending nearly every waking moment researching and (re)learning everything that I took to be truth.

Heart is voided, the mind is empty the LORD comes and make the heart full, but still the mind is empty

While your ideas you present are interesting, I keep going back to scripture (the Tanach, mainly) to see how it specifically points to Yeshua as the Messiah. The more I research, the more it seems to point in the opposite direction, much to my dismay. This is especially true as I compare it to NT scripture. Questions that have nagged me in the back of my mind for years are suddenly all coming to the surface. I can no longer just brush them aside with the simple excuse, "G-d knows what He's doing," or "Well, I just have to take it on faith (that the scriptures are correct and there are no discrepancies)."

Well the first thing I alway remind myself:

"I am who I am" or "I will be, whom I will be"
(I know you do not what to hear that, but it still is important)
Also about the trinity issue, you may find this intresting:

the prophecy:

A virgin shall give birth to a child and they shall call him "G-d with us"

the prophecy is coming true, thats all... think about it

This is not a particularly easy or fun journey G-d has set me upon.

It gets better, when you release the trivial and focus where G-d has focused, you see there You may find answers, you may find him who is our safe hold, otherwise its opinions, and men teachings, where is the comfort in that?

Shalom,

I hope I have not offended you, I worry I do that sometimes I just seen to many look in their study to focus on one thing so hard that they do not see that it is independent to the whole. They forget what is the core, I am sure this is not you, but I am always worry.

DaTsar

BenTsion · Dec 27, 2003

LibertyChic,
Shalom!
I'll blame half of my mistake on the fact that, having very little time to stay online
these days, I had to rush through your message. And the other half on the fact
that I'm not a native English speaker, therefore I sometimes don't get the nuances ;-)

About the Trinity, I'd like to say that, first of all, if G-d wanted His nature to be 100%
clear to us, he'd make us capable of fully understanding it. Since He hasn't, we can
only come to the conclusion that we have yet to grasp the full concept of it, and
that it is not too important in terms of salvation. It is important, to my understanding,
to grasp the clear concepts that He is (somehow) One, not many gods like some cults
try to make it look, and His Son Yeshua is G-d. Anything that denies such concepts
is dangerous and unbiblical. Now, if we're talking about three persons, three
manifestations, three whatever, we'll only fully understand it when we are finally
with Him in His glorious presence.

As for me, I personally think the concept of the Trinity is the only thing that makes
sense in MY mind. Why? Well, scripture is clear about a few things:
1 - G-d is One;
2 - Yeshua is G-d;
3 - Yeshua prayed to the Father;
4 - Father and Ruach HaKodesh were present at his baptism;
5 - When Yeshua was dying and took upon Himself the sins of the world,
His connection with the Father was temporarily broken;

Therefore, in the light of the fact exposed above, I (and again I'd like to make it clear
that I'm talking about a personal feeling/conclusion) don't think Modalism (i.e. speaking
of three different manifestations of G-d) makes ANY sense.

Why am I trinitarian? Because to this day no-one has been able to provide me with a
better explanation of the nature of G-d, even though I know the trinitarian view has
its own problems, but so will ANY non-heretical view of G-d (i.e. one that doesn't
deny that Yeshua is G-d and that G-d is One) - each one has its own achille's heel,
because G-d is far too complex for our little finite mortal minds to fully understand.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

Henaynei · Dec 27, 2003

LibertyChic said:
You do realize, don't you, that this particular site is, as far as I can tell, showing proof as to why Jesus is not the Messiah?

LOL - well I'm nothing if not balanced!! NOT!!!!

Goes to show you what happens when you try to function in your sleep!!!!

Seriously, I hope you also read the other sites!!

iitb · Dec 27, 2003

Henaynei said:
Could Messiah be a Descendant of Jehoiachin and Zerubabel?

While there is nothing wrong with this particular article, I figure I should throw in a warning about www.torahofmessiah.com. That site teaches that the Messiah was just a man, and tends to attack those who feel Y'shua had any sort of divinity. I have a little trouble following the logic at times. There is a lot of good stuff, but not all of it is true, so be careful.

Henaynei · Dec 27, 2003

justinhulsey said:
While there is nothing wrong with this particular article, I figure I should throw in a warning about www.torahofmessiah.com. That site teaches that the Messiah was just a man, and tends to attack those who feel Y'shua had any sort of divinity. I have a little trouble following the logic at times. There is a lot of good stuff, but not all of it is true, so be careful.

I sincerely apologize to justin, LC et al for my inadvertent failure to fully screen my choice in urls. I was trying to gather info and allowed inaccuracy to slip through.

Again, my true and humble apologies.

Sincerely,
Henaynei

iitb · Dec 27, 2003

Like I said, there isn't anything wrong with that article(it's actually just an excerpt from the book What the Rabbi's Know about the Messiah), but other articles go as far as to call those that share our beliefs "false Messianics."

No worries I'm sure I'll end up doing something much worse in a week or two.

LibertyChic · Dec 27, 2003

DaTsar said:
I would not worry about it as I said this is a very trivial issue...

Trivial, unless Yeshua was not THE Messiah. Which I guess all my questions above really boil down to this one. However, I am looking for an excuse...a reason to prove Yeshua is who he said he was. I'm finding, that when I weigh it against the Tanach, there are a lot of conflicts I didn't see before.

You do believe that the father and son have a connection of some sort don't you?

Well of course, going on the precept that he is who he said he was. Again, I have held a tritarian point of view for yearssssss, so I have obviously never had a problem with it before. I understand the Christian point of view on it. I am beginning to see the traditional Jewish point of view, and am simply stating that, dang, they have got some really good points.

What matter is it what that relationship is, or how it works? Do you think those are the Gifts G-d is looking at you or me to invest? How may one invest them?if one cannot what value are they?

The relationship is critical. As I said to my husband, if he is the son of G-d, then certainly don't you think he would stand up to the scrutiny? Don't you think that it will prove itself out?

I know this may sound odd to you, but I have been there too, my best advice is to take it slow and yes study but use your energy to follow and to learn purfiy yourself,and how to follow.

I read this as, "Keep doing what you've been doing for 30 some years, and don't question quite so hard; don't scrutinize; don't wonder why all the pieces don't quite fit together." I know you probably didn't mean it that way, nor certainly with that intent in your heart. I understand that. However, I have been working on "purifying my heart" for quite some time now. My walk with the Lord (Yeshua) was drying up and dying. My mil and her husband began going to a Messianic synogogue, and I was curious to learn more. I actually have always had a hunger (since I was a child) for the Jewish people and wished to know more...I am finally fulfilling that, I believe, after all this time.

the prophecy is coming true, thats all... think about it

I'm not just looking at this prophecy, but all the prophcies

It gets better, when you release the trivial and focus where G-d has focused, you see there You may find answers, you may find him who is our safe hold, otherwise its opinions, and men teachings, where is the comfort in that?

Unfortunately, this thread has seemed to concentrate on one small aspect of my questions. I was hoping that the answers would be more along the lines of:

Question 1: {answer}

Question 2: {answer}

Etc, etc....but that is alright. I'm willing to take the answers as they come. Each response is actually broadening my research and giving me more of the bigger picture (which is why I don't respond right away, in many cases.....I'm trying to figure stuff out....lol)

I hope I have not offended you, I worry I do that sometimes I just seen to many look in their study to focus on one thing so hard that they do not see that it is independent to the whole. They forget what is the core, I am sure this is not you, but I am always worry.

Oh heavens, no. Not even remotely offended.

LibertyChic · Dec 27, 2003

BenTsion said:
LibertyChic,
Shalom!
I'll blame half of my mistake on the fact that, having very little time to stay online
these days, I had to rush through your message. And the other half on the fact
that I'm not a native English speaker, therefore I sometimes don't get the nuances ;-)

Well I must say, your English is nearly impeccable, and better than most native speakers. Kudos to you And of course, I was not upset at you in the least. I was teasing, more than anything

Regarding your comments on the Trinity, please see my above post.

Shalom,

LibertyChic · Dec 27, 2003

Henaynei said:
I sincerely apologize to justin, LC et al for my inadvertent failure to fully screen my choice in urls. I was trying to gather info and allowed inaccuracy to slip through.

Again, my true and humble apologies.

Sincerely,
Henaynei

No need to apologize my dear. I find it amusing and more than coincidental (?) LOL.....either way, do know I am certainly reading "both sides" of the issue.

To everyone that has been kind enough to respond, please understand that I am WELL versed in the Christian point of view. I am a former minister (though not ordained) and have studied NT scriptures for many years.

Everyone has been simply wonderful. Group hug!!

Achichem · Dec 27, 2003

I didnt even notice the other questions? LOL
I am also sorry I cannot be of more help, but you see I have always concentrated my studies to the brit hadashah, and I lost without it help , I working hard on the torah now. as for the Tanach I have only really used it to help answer questions, I never really study it on it own merit, maybe taht why I do not see what youa re talking about .But i do want to help so let me try one last time:

Is there a literal hell? What happens to one's soul and spirit upon death?

As to this one, I thought you might be intrested in what the NT with the Old testment context really tells us of hell.(its very long, and its just a summary )
What does the bible teach us of what happen after death

Also, so you are saying you doubt Yeshua as messiah,becuase of conflicts with the Tanach; now, I realize the complexity of the study and what it brings, but I wonder which of these seem to be the cause of your doubt, as I don't quite understand this conflict, so is it:
-Yshua missed certain prophecies
-Yshua broke the law in some way
-Yshua did not fulfilled any prophecies
-Yshua did something out of G-d character
-The New Testament is different then the old
-The acts of Yshua had inconsistency with HaShem
-I never seen a list of all the prophecies that Yeshua did fulfill
-Other (please explain)

LibertyChic · Dec 27, 2003

DaTsar said:
Also, so you are saying you doubt Yeshua as messiah,becuase of conflicts with the Tanach; now, I realize the complexity of the study and what it brings, but I wonder which of these seem to be the cause of your doubt, as I don't quite understand this conflict, so is it:
-Yshua missed certain prophecies
-Yshua broke the law in some way
-Yshua did not fulfilled any prophecies
-Yshua did something out of G-d character
-The New Testament is different then the old
-The acts of Yshua had inconsistency with HaShem
-I never seen a list of all the prophecies that Yeshua did fulfill
-Other (please explain)

Again, what started me on this whole quest was a curiosity regarding my mil's switch from a church to Messianic Synagogue. It started out as a comparison to see what was the difference between what Messianic Jews believe vs what Christians believe (because, after all, if they believe the same things, what is the point of switching?). In my preliminary studies, I found very little difference between the two (I am learning there are a few key differences, but for the most part, many MS are simply churches with a "Jewish bent.")

So my next question was, "What is the difference between a MS and a traditional synagogue?" I happened upon a website which stated that Yeshua failed to fulfill even ONE of the prophecies regarding the Messiah. My reaction was a rather strong one. "Not one?? Oh come on!" And so I set out to prove them wrong. I'm having an increasingly difficult time doing so.

What I've learned has pretty much been devastating to my Christian faith. The next natural course of action would be, do I join a MS or traditional synagogue? Where do I go from here? I do not want to simply jump into a MS for the sake of not being in a church. If the church has lied about all this other stuff;twisted the truth and cause millions of people to go astray, why wouldn't it lie about the divinity of Jesus too?

I feel the burden of proof lies not with the Jews to prove he wasn't the Messiah, but with the believers, to prove he was. If I am to take such a stance, I want proof, beyond any shadow of a doubt. Unfortunately, the shadows of doubt are long and dark.

To specifically answer your question (which is an excellent one, btw):

1. As far as I can tell, many of the "missed" prophecies are based upon one's interpretation of the ancient scriptures. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with a very knowledgable, very sweet Messianic Rabbi. When I got to any question of the divinity of Yeshua or his Messianic qualifications, more often than not, the response was, "Well, that just boils down to how I interpret the scriptures vs how other rabbis interpret them."

2. I have not found any evidence that he actually broke the law in any way.

3. Please see response #1, as I feel this falls under the same heading.

4. I'll have to give this one some thought.....lol. My initial response would be, "No, I don't think so," but honestly, I haven't looked at it from that point of view, so am not sure of how I feel on that subject.

5. The NT is very different from the Tanach. One, as it was pointed out in another thread, is that the Tanach has been meticulously translated by men who spend their entire lives making sure they get it right. The NT was not even considered "scripture" in it's day. Beyond that, some of the (now, at least to me) glaringly obvious contradictions within the NT itself should give one pause. One example (and I'll just use one for now) is the geneology of Christ. I never really paid attention to this before. Last night I sat down with a notebook and created two columns. On the left was as Matthew recorded it and on the right, as Luke recorded it. The two men cannot even agree on who the father of Joseph was, let alone the entire geneology. Would this have happened in the Tanach? If the NT is the inspired Word of G-d, (even though written by men years later), wouldn't He have made sure His Spirit dictated it correctly to these mens' hearts? Beyond that, I am having a hard time lining up Luke's (more complete) geneology with that of the Tanach. And (sorry...lol) in Matthew 1:17 he writes, "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen, from David to the Babylonian exile fourteen generations, from the Babylonian exile to the Christ fourteen generations." But when you actually count the generations, they come out to 14, 14 and 13. Why? And if this is an important fact (which it obviously is, for some reason, or it wouldn't be mentioned), why is Luke's geneology account so much longer?

6. See points 2 and 4

7. I have seen a list of prophecies, but am not entirely convinced from a traditional Jewish point of view (burden of proof being on the Christian/Messianic POV) that these scriptures actually point to what they say they are. Make sense?

Also, please know that while it this is a hard journey for me, and while I have not completely given up on the idea of Yeshua being the Messiah; even if I come to the conclusion that he isn't, I feel that it will do nothing but bring me closer to G-d. I had a bit of a revelation some years ago, within my Christian walk, that I probably ought to be praying more to the Father, rather than Jesus. My walk with G-d grew closer after that little switch in thinking. I also always thought (was taught) that Jews are without hope, because they have no savior. They are lost in a mire of darkness and have no relationship with G-d whatsoever. I am finding this to be categorically false as well. I also know that as a gentile, I do have a hope in G-d, and that He loves me as His own child and continue to have a relationship with Him.

I know G-d is not shaken by my little quest here. Rather, I feel He is guiding my steps and will ultimately lead me to the truth. If that truth reveals Yeshua is the prophecied Messiah, the Praise HaShem! If not, the I praise Him anyway!

BenTsion · Dec 27, 2003

Dear LibertyChic,
Thanks for the compliment! I wish I had a good grasp of Hebrew, though... being Jewish and not knowing anything but the very basics is pretty sad.

About the Trinity, I think your problem seems to be more related to Yeshua fulfilling
the Messianic prophecies than to the role He plays within the Godhead. Please bear
in mind that some prophecies are yet to be fulfilled in his next coming (which wouldn't make sense if we tried to prove that he has already fulfilled it). Also, if we see things in the light of the Jewish Midrasha, some points become more clear. Christianity has a rather simplistic way of reading scripture, which sometimes leads to some apparent difficulties. An understanding that the writers were Jewish and therefore were well acquainted with and used the Midrasha makes us realize that there might be more to prophecies than it meets the eye (a typical example is the prophecy of Joel mentioned by Mattityahu - there's a nice explanation in that book Messianic Jew Manifesto by Dr. David Stern). Anyway, here's a link which states some of the prophecies that Yeshua fulfilled and the Mathematical probability of anyone else fulfilling them altogether.

http://www.messianic-prophecy.net/

Hope you find it helpful!

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

Henaynei · Dec 27, 2003

Not to add more confusion to the pot - but there is as big a difference in how the Messianic prophetic scriptures are interperted between:

modern (post-Holocaust) rabbinic Judaism and pre-Holocaust Judaism
pre-Holocaust Judaism and pre-Diaspora Judaism
pre-Diaspora Judaism and pre-Destruction of the Temple Judaism

There is MUCH that originally Judaism DID recognize as Messianic Prophecy and which Yeshua DID fulfill, BUT the interpertations have been changed.
All or most of the changed interpertations at any point in history were driven by the interaction of the community that believed in Yeshua and those who did not and were specifically:

to disprove any connection between Yeshua and Messiah
to discredit anyone who tried to prove the Messiahship of Yeshua from Judaism
to protect the Jews in the Diaspora from the accusations and pogroms

Some were even mandated BY Christianity to further the gulf between them and the "infidel Jews - Christ-Killers." Thus it was "the church" that divorced it self from the Old testament except as an historical book.

You are taking so much study on but I would like to direct you to these facts:

"First-century Messianic Jews remained highly loyal to their land, people, traditions, and Torah, while believing that Yeshua was the Messiah. Whether it was Jewish to believe in Yeshua was never an issue. Of course it was Jewish! What else could it be? So what happened? There were of course many of our people who did not recognize Yeshua as Messiah [added: just as many Jews and non-Jews do not recognize Him today], and distanced themselves from those who believed. The blow that separated the Messianic Jews from the Jewish community came during the Bar Kochba revolt [added: during the war with Rome in 70 AD]. Messianic believers fought side by side with those who did not believe, until Rabbi Akiva announced that Bar Kochba was the Messiah! This caused a grave problem for those who believed that Yeshua was the Messiah, they believed that Bar Kochba was a false Messiah and they could no longer follow him as a leader. This was when the Messianic Jews began to be called "minim" or traitors."

It was also when we lost the war with Rome, the Jews were removed from Israel forcably, our Temple was totally destroyed and Judaism as it had been known ceased to exist. The deeply embittered leadership of non-Messianic Judaism rejected the Messianics as "minim" or "aphekoros" - hebrew and greek for Traitor. In heated moments they still call us that today - especially if a Jewish family member turns to Yeshua.

Add to this the centuries of bloody Christian persecution and murder of the Jews and there is good reason for Judaism to protect herself and her people from believers of any ilk.

The best book I ever read about the church's relationship with Judaism is Our Hands are stained with Blood. Reading it would equip you with a much needed perspective from which to view the task you have placed before you and I highly recommend it.

Henaynei · Dec 27, 2003

Toledot Yeshua
History/Lineage of Yeshua

LC,
This site addressed head on, some of the questions you have about Mattityahu vs Lukas. A quick and insightful read.

Shalom,
Henaynei

So Many Questions......

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק

Ancient Hassid in the making

Finally Free To Be Me

Faithful

Finally Free To Be Me

Faithful

Yeshua Worshipper

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

a.k.a. insaneinthebrain

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

a.k.a. insaneinthebrain

Finally Free To Be Me

Finally Free To Be Me

Finally Free To Be Me

Faithful

Finally Free To Be Me

Yeshua Worshipper

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

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