So lately....

[philadiddle]

In the last many months my interest in debating origins online has reduced dramatically. I've stopped in a bit to read and stopped in even less to make a few posts. It just seems to be the same thing over and over and over.

In real life in my church I've found a guy who is a YEC and is interested in talking about it. I found myself having to try extra hard not to be a jerk (I'm just being honest here). It's so easy when you're online to be very condescending and rude, sometimes without even realizing it. But as I talk to people in real life you see how their beliefs really affect them and you can't just put on a full frontal assault to shred their views and foist your own views.

I'm going to make an effort when I do come on here to be very polite and actually have a conversation with people. I caught myself just now posting to Greg and I made a comment about "I expect you to side step this..." which, looking back, it would have been better to have just left that kind of comment out. (Sorry Greg)

I also seem to find that whenever either side posts an article the other side never seems to read it with the intention of understanding it, it is read with the mindset of a stereotype of the other view and with an intention of demonstrating how it is wrong. Hopefully when someone posts an article on here we can talk about what the article is saying so that both sides are on the same page as to the meaning of it, and then we can engage in constructive criticisms to increase everyone's understanding.

This is Christian Forums. We should expect there to be a higher standard in the way we communicate with each other. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and we should be looking in the same direction and working together, even when we strongly disagree.

These are just some thoughts I've had recently.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

... Pansy ...

 

[philadiddle]

... Pansy ...

How do you figure?

 

[mark kennedy]

In the last many months my interest in debating origins online has reduced dramatically. I've stopped in a bit to read and stopped in even less to make a few posts. It just seems to be the same thing over and over and over.

In real life in my church I've found a guy who is a YEC and is interested in talking about it. I found myself having to try extra hard not to be a jerk (I'm just being honest here). It's so easy when you're online to be very condescending and rude, sometimes without even realizing it. But as I talk to people in real life you see how their beliefs really affect them and you can't just put on a full frontal assault to shred their views and foist your own views.

I'm going to make an effort when I do come on here to be very polite and actually have a conversation with people. I caught myself just now posting to Greg and I made a comment about "I expect you to side step this..." which, looking back, it would have been better to have just left that kind of comment out. (Sorry Greg)

I also seem to find that whenever either side posts an article the other side never seems to read it with the intention of understanding it, it is read with the mindset of a stereotype of the other view and with an intention of demonstrating how it is wrong. Hopefully when someone posts an article on here we can talk about what the article is saying so that both sides are on the same page as to the meaning of it, and then we can engage in constructive criticisms to increase everyone's understanding.

This is Christian Forums. We should expect there to be a higher standard in the way we communicate with each other. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and we should be looking in the same direction and working together, even when we strongly disagree.

These are just some thoughts I've had recently.

I've always thought that civility could greatly improve these discussion. I'm glad you are considering a less offensive approach to the subject, in fact, I think we all should. I noticed that the thread did not get a great deal of attention which hardly surprises me. Often I have tried to offer an olive branch to evolutionists but the fact is, most of the time they simply wield it like a switch.

Don't get me wrong, I'm aware I am as bad as anyone. I have no problem with efforts to improve civility, it something really needed. Unfortunately that would require mutual respect, something the opposing camps find difficult to muster.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[philadiddle]

Thanks for responding Mark. 49 views and until you posted I've only been insulted (maybe sarcastically?).

I like to know what people think when they read my posts.

 

[Assyrian]

Good post phil, we all need the grace of God in our hearts when discussions get heated.

(and I think Noted was just teasing)

 

[mark kennedy]

Thanks for responding Mark. 49 views and until you posted I've only been insulted (maybe sarcastically?).

I like to know what people think when they read my posts.

Civility is not easy and I'll be the first to admit I'm as bad as anyone. There are some hotly contended issues but if you really believe that a more respectful environment is called for stand by your convictions.

I'm having a formal debate and there have been hundreds of views with only a few actively participating in the peanut gallery. I just hope they are learning something from the exercise, my point being, if you believe it's the right thing to do then that should be enough.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Leat]

I understand what you're saying here. And I understand the idea of the notion.

I personally believe however that we are to correct those who are wrong, according to Scripture, not according to personal belief. And, it's so common nowadays for people to become "Christians" and be led astray at the same time. There are many false prophets out there, and I hate it when people are falsely led to believe something to be so true.

It's not about religion, denomination, or theology, or orthodoxy, these are all man-made things. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL!! And we believe Jesus to be a literal man, and we believe that His disciples were real, and we believe everything else in the new testament, we should believe everything in The Bible, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH is real, literal, and true.

I don't respect the whole "I believe in most of the bible, but..." thinking or teaching. If you believe it, you believe it, if you don't, you don't. Lukewarm "Christians" aka Pharisees drive me up a wall!

 

[philadiddle]

I don't respect the whole "I believe in most of the bible, but..." thinking or teaching. If you believe it, you believe it, if you don't, you don't. Lukewarm "Christians" aka Pharisees drive me up a wall!

In this section of the forum it seems that all Christians feel they believe the whole bible, it's just what the bible is saying that we sometimes disagree on.

Our goals are ultimately the same though, so we can agree to discuss the issue in a civil manner.

 

[theFijian]

hi phil, kudos for such a humble post. Can we get it stickied?

I have no problem with efforts to improve civility, it something really needed. Unfortunately that would require mutual respect, something the opposing camps find difficult to muster.

Actually all it requires is humility as aptly demonstrated by phil.

 

[mark kennedy]

hi phil, kudos for such a humble post. Can we get it stickied? Actually all it requires is humility as aptly demonstrated by phil.

Humility, the sweetest and loveliest flower to grow in Eden,
It was the first to die and has seldom been seen since.
It is so delicate that it perishes if it but looks upon itself,
and he who esteems it his, proves by that very thought, he has it not.

Dickens, Oliver Twist​

That's a good way to encourage someone to be humble, flatter them.

 

[Assyrian]

 

[theFijian]

Humility, the sweetest and loveliest flower to grow in Eden,
It was the first to die and has seldom been seen since.
It is so delicate that it perishes if it but looks upon itself,
and he who esteems it his, proves by that very thought, he has it not.

Dickens, Oliver Twist​

That's a good way to encourage someone to be humble, flatter them.

But he's so humble it wouldn't affect his humility

 

[shernren]

For me, being humble is about learning to accept that creationists don't really want to know what evolutionists believe, they just want to know how to bash evolutionists.

Humility then involves me not fighting for the right to be understood, but accepting that there is nothing I can do to fulfill that particular need a creationist has, and then bowing out gracefully.

 

[mark kennedy]

For me, being humble is about learning to accept that creationists don't really want to know what evolutionists believe, they just want to know how to bash evolutionists.

Your the premier creationist basher on this forum, look around, these tactics have ran virtually all of the creationists out of here.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. (Colossians 3:12, 13)​

I know exactly what you believe shernren, you believe that creationists are intellectually inferior to you.

Humility then involves me not fighting for the right to be understood, but accepting that there is nothing I can do to fulfill that particular need a creationist has, and then bowing out gracefully.

Humility involves submitting to one another in the fear of the Lord (Eph. 5:21), serving one another in love (Gal. 5:13), considering others better than ourselves (Phil. 2:3) and thus fulfilling the royal law (James 2:8; Romans 13:10).

I asked you once who the fools in the opening chapters of Proverbs were.

“How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you. (Proverbs 1:22-27)​

Is this Solomon that wisdom is crying out to? Is it Solomon's son? Is it creationists or Bible literalists? Or is it you?

If you don't see yourself in this passage the opening chapter of Romans will make no sense to you. You want to talk about rights? The only thing you have a right to before God is judgment and wrath. It is by grace that we are saved, sanctified and ultimately judged. That is of course, if we forgive even as we are forgiven.

But he's so humble it wouldn't affect his humility

Yea but it's so hard to be humble when your perfect in every way according to Mac Davis.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Assyrian]

Your the premier creationist basher on this forum, look around, these tactics have ran virtually all of the creationists out of here.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. (Colossians 3:12, 13)​

I know exactly what you believe shernren, you believe that creationists are intellectually inferior to you.

From what I know of shernren he probably is more intelligent than most people, but I doubt he goes around saying it to himself that all the time, it certainly wasn't his point here.

 

[philadiddle]

From what I know of shernren he probably is more intelligent than most people.

Just remember, half the population has a below average intelligence.

 

[Jase]

I understand what you're saying here. And I understand the idea of the notion.

I personally believe however that we are to correct those who are wrong, according to Scripture, not according to personal belief. And, it's so common nowadays for people to become "Christians" and be led astray at the same time. There are many false prophets out there, and I hate it when people are falsely led to believe something to be so true.

It's not about religion, denomination, or theology, or orthodoxy, these are all man-made things. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL!! And we believe Jesus to be a literal man, and we believe that His disciples were real, and we believe everything else in the new testament, we should believe everything in The Bible, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH is real, literal, and true.

I don't respect the whole "I believe in most of the bible, but..." thinking or teaching. If you believe it, you believe it, if you don't, you don't. Lukewarm "Christians" aka Pharisees drive me up a wall!

The Pharisees were not Christian, nor were they lukewarm.

And believing everything in the Bible as literal is very dangerous. For starters, it means the Earth is flat and geocentric. It also means God ordered or condoned some very very nasty things such as smashing babies on rocks.

The Bible was never intended to be 100% literal.

 

[shernren]

Just remember, half the population has a below average intelligence.

I recently wrote a test for my college students (not equivalent to "college" in the US, I think? My students are 18 this year), and the mean mark of my weaker class was exactly 50%.

As a math person, I was thrilled; as students, they weren't.

I know exactly what you believe shernren, you believe that creationists are intellectually inferior to you.

I genuinely believe that many creationists here do not want to know why I believe what I believe. Furthermore, I genuinely believe that this does not in any way reflect negatively on their intelligence or on their character. Of course, when they pretend to care when they don't, that's lying, but even then there are far worse lies to tell.

For myself, for example, I find that the more I think about these matters, the less I find myself concerned about what proofs atheists and agnostics have for the non-existence of God. I know most of their tricks and most variations on those tricks, and so I know that I will not be particularly good at listening to an atheist lecture. Of course, if any of my personal friends (and I have a few, believe it or not) who are atheists happen to tell me over lunch why they don't believe in God, I will do my best to give them a fair hearing - but not as someone who is curious about atheism per se, rather as a friend who respects a friend's views.

Does that make me less intelligent? I should hope not! Does that make me a lesser person? I doubt so. It does make me a stubborn person - but stubbornness is often a virtue, at least when it is made explicit.

So I don't begrudge creationists their stubbornness. Indeed, I don't begrudge you your stubbornness. You are convinced not only that evolution is wrong, but that the evolutionists are vile persecutors of creationists, frequently resorting to personal insult and un-Christian behavior, of whom I am the worst.

Of course I shall not mention the numerous incidents when the insulted has been the evolutionist's faith or reason, or how rarely the creationist's faith or reason are called into question; neither shall I mention how often the evolutionist extends an invitation to dialogue, only to be rebuffed by the creationist on some grounds of purity from infidels or something such; neither should I speak of how atheists will attack theistic evolutionists as being just as bad as creationists, and creationists will attack theistic evolutionists as being just as bad as atheists, while theistic evolutionists do their best to commend both the correct reasoning of atheists and the zealous faith of creationists, while gently correcting their various flaws.

Indeed, I don't want to talk much about how you have just recently started a debate with an evolutionist here, who longed to honestly discuss with you whether the RCC endorses evolution or not, only to have you declare that for you the debate was not really about that at all, which is disingenuous at best and plain dishonest at worst.

I shall not dwell at length on them, not just because I am madly in love with apophatic slamdunks, but because I really might as well not. There is neither necessity nor possibility of convincing one who refuses to listen. Neither does a Christian, crucified with Christ, have any recourse to the rhetoric of rights (as you have so rightly pointed out), much less the right to be understood; but I will defend to the death of my own pride your right to intelligently refuse to listen to anything you choose.

As for folly, let him who has no sin cast the first stone.

 

[philadiddle]

It seems appropriate for me to bump this thread.

Remember MK when we got along so well in the weeks that followed this post?