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So Evolutionists, you will let me say whatever I like in the name of mutation?

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So as you will probably be aware, there is a serious problem with the moral disconnect between what people accept as science and what they think it means. There is no sense in which you are expected to behave a certain way, because of the idea that we all become green monkeys once the sun turns purple because that is what selection favours. In fact, selection could favour anything and people would say, "well, that's Evolution, so what?" It's a big moral problem.

The place this moral problem is clearest is perhaps in what you say. It stands to reason that if mutation is how we progress, then theoretically someone can say anything they like (don't try, this board has rules) and it will be deemed ok, since they are probably closer to an adaptation that will help them, even everybody. This is the thinking. The problem is that you obviously can't say everything you like, and if you try you will undoubtedly exhaust yourself well and truly before you ever get anywhere.

There was actually some work done that proved this actually. Reported on Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman, a scientist actually described how, if you try to create a chessboard randomly, it would take literally gazillions of attempts before you got it right. That was until you actually created a heuristic that simplified the process somewhat and so arrived at the chessboard by compromise. What this demonstrates is that even a simple person can see that the premise of just saying anything is wrong, yet the problem remains how to convince an Evolutionist that they therefore have to address their theory morally.

The situation is actually that you have a reason to believe some restraint is necessary and a theory that says no restraint matters and a moral imperative to work out what the difference is and how to negotiate it. That is essentially the problem I am putting to you. The reason you will find it difficult is that no one can control their tongue as a man, even at the best of times and that necessarily means relying on what someone else has said, in order to make your point.

So the question is this: if mutation requires free reign and successful Evolution requires restraint, how do you reconcile the two?

And what does this mean for free speech?:):):)
 

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Gottservant, you are still attached to the false view that evolution implies a stance on moral oughts, even to negate oughts altogether. It has nothing to do with this.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Paradoxum

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A good portion of your post is almost incoherent to me. I don't know why that's nearly always the case. I'll reply to the bits I understand.

Hi there,

So as you will probably be aware, there is a serious problem with the moral disconnect between what people accept as science and what they think it means. There is no sense in which you are expected to behave a certain way, because of the idea that we all become green monkeys once the sun turns purple because that is what selection favours. In fact, selection could favour anything and people would say, "well, that's Evolution, so what?" It's a big moral problem.

Well people generally do expect others to act morally and decently, so I don't know what you mean.

The place this moral problem is clearest is perhaps in what you say. It stands to reason that if mutation is how we progress, then theoretically someone can say anything they like (don't try, this board has rules) and it will be deemed ok, since they are probably closer to an adaptation that will help them, even everybody. This is the thinking. The problem is that you obviously can't say everything you like, and if you try you will undoubtedly exhaust yourself well and truly before you ever get anywhere.

What?

There was actually some work done that proved this actually. Reported on Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman, a scientist actually described how, if you try to create a chessboard randomly, it would take literally gazillions of attempts before you got it right. That was until you actually created a heuristic that simplified the process somewhat and so arrived at the chessboard by compromise. What this demonstrates is that even a simple person can see that the premise of just saying anything is wrong, yet the problem remains how to convince an Evolutionist that they therefore have to address their theory morally.

What?

The situation is actually that you have a reason to believe some restraint is necessary and a theory that says no restraint matters and a moral imperative to work out what the difference is and how to negotiate it. That is essentially the problem I am putting to you. The reason you will find it difficult is that no one can control their tongue as a man, even at the best of times and that necessarily means relying on what someone else has said, in order to make your point.

It's very easy to figure out how they work together. Evolution doesn't require moral restraint, but it is merely descriptive. Morality does require restraint, and is prescriptive. In action we follow prescriptions, not descriptions.

Evolution is just a theory of what happens, just like gravity. Just because gravity kills people it doesn't mean that it's okay to push people off buildings. Evolution and gravity are just descriptions of what happens, not prescriptions for action or attitudes.

So the question is this: if mutation requires free reign and successful Evolution requires restraint, how do you reconcile the two?

Accept that evolution is amoral, but that you should be moral. I don't see the problem.
 
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Ayersy

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Hi there,

So as you will probably be aware, there is a serious problem with the moral disconnect between what people accept as science and what they think it means. There is no sense in which you are expected to behave a certain way, because of the idea that we all become green monkeys once the sun turns purple because that is what selection favours. In fact, selection could favour anything and people would say, "well, that's Evolution, so what?" It's a big moral problem.

The place this moral problem is clearest is perhaps in what you say. It stands to reason that if mutation is how we progress, then theoretically someone can say anything they like (don't try, this board has rules) and it will be deemed ok, since they are probably closer to an adaptation that will help them, even everybody. This is the thinking. The problem is that you obviously can't say everything you like, and if you try you will undoubtedly exhaust yourself well and truly before you ever get anywhere.

There was actually some work done that proved this actually. Reported on Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman, a scientist actually described how, if you try to create a chessboard randomly, it would take literally gazillions of attempts before you got it right. That was until you actually created a heuristic that simplified the process somewhat and so arrived at the chessboard by compromise. What this demonstrates is that even a simple person can see that the premise of just saying anything is wrong, yet the problem remains how to convince an Evolutionist that they therefore have to address their theory morally.

The situation is actually that you have a reason to believe some restraint is necessary and a theory that says no restraint matters and a moral imperative to work out what the difference is and how to negotiate it. That is essentially the problem I am putting to you. The reason you will find it difficult is that no one can control their tongue as a man, even at the best of times and that necessarily means relying on what someone else has said, in order to make your point.

So the question is this: if mutation requires free reign and successful Evolution requires restraint, how do you reconcile the two?

And what does this mean for free speech?:):):)


Hi again, Gotts. I, along with most others on this forum are... confused by your posts.

Would you be able to phrase it again in a simpler way? The huge chunk of writing (Yes, I did read all of it) is a nightmare to piece together. Perhaps it would help to keep your questions short, concise and simple?

If you could summarise your question in one sentence, what would that sentence be? :)

I'm not trying to be mean, I really would love to engage in a conversation with you, but first I need to get my head around what you're asking. :)
 
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Gottservant

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Hi again, Gotts. I, along with most others on this forum are... confused by your posts.

Would you be able to phrase it again in a simpler way? The huge chunk of writing (Yes, I did read all of it) is a nightmare to piece together. Perhaps it would help to keep your questions short, concise and simple?

If you could summarise your question in one sentence, what would that sentence be? :)

I'm not trying to be mean, I really would love to engage in a conversation with you, but first I need to get my head around what you're asking. :)

I know I ramble, I am a rambler, what I say is rambling, you are not expected to understand all of it.

God uses my ramble to humble people who think they understand everything they vocalize, without contemplating.

I did summarize my question and someone answered it, so if you think you are communicating with me on the basis of what I wrote, you are mistaken.

There are two obvious philosophies that apply to two major components of Evolutionary theory: they can't both be applied.

So how do you choose?
 
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Gottservant

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A good portion of your post is almost incoherent to me. I don't know why that's nearly always the case. I'll reply to the bits I understand.



Well people generally do expect others to act morally and decently, so I don't know what you mean.



What?



What?



It's very easy to figure out how they work together. Evolution doesn't require moral restraint, but it is merely descriptive. Morality does require restraint, and is prescriptive. In action we follow prescriptions, not descriptions.

Evolution is just a theory of what happens, just like gravity. Just because gravity kills people it doesn't mean that it's okay to push people off buildings. Evolution and gravity are just descriptions of what happens, not prescriptions for action or attitudes.



Accept that evolution is amoral, but that you should be moral. I don't see the problem.

Yes, but you are basing it on nothing.

I see nothing as your basis.

If I say I am evolved and I want to be moral and oh, now I've changed my mind, I want to take it back: what is wrong with that?

You can't see that that is a moral vacuum?
 
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Paradoxum

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Yes, but you are basing it on nothing.

I see nothing as your basis.

If I say I am evolved and I want to be moral and oh, now I've changed my mind, I want to take it back: what is wrong with that?

You can't see that that is a moral vacuum?

You are asking why should we be moral? That's a legitimate question, but it has nothing to do with evolution.

You can't say that you should be moral (where 'should' is a moral 'should'), because that would seem to be circular.

I have reasons to be moral, such as it being the truthful thing to do, it can make your life happier and more meaningful, because you care about others, etc.

I don't think you are in any better a situation. If God is real, that doesn't tell you why you should be moral. Unless you would say for fear of punishment, or hope of reward. I wouldn't say they are great answers.
 
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Gottservant

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You are asking why should we be moral? That's a legitimate question, but it has nothing to do with evolution.

You can't say that you should be moral (where 'should' is a moral 'should'), because that would seem to be circular.

I have reasons to be moral, such as it being the truthful thing to do, it can make your life happier and more meaningful, because you care about others, etc.

I don't think you are in any better a situation. If God is real, that doesn't tell you why you should be moral. Unless you would say for fear of punishment, or hope of reward. I wouldn't say they are great answers.

Yes, well you are doing a good job of reducing my question to pieces but you are not really addressing the components of the question in their proper context.

I am not asking you to justify morality, morality is a given

What I am asking is, given that morality is a given, how do you proceed on the basis of what you know about Evolution?

This is nothing new, Evolutionists claim morality is a given all the time, they say things like "well if its good for the society, you do it"

What is interesting is that at the same time that you want to say Evolution is true and I can say morality is a given in my own way, you say "you can't say morality is a given though" because of the same Evolution, so there is an obvious contradiction there either way you look at it
 
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Paradoxum

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Yes, well you are doing a good job of reducing my question to pieces but you are not really addressing the components of the question in their proper context.

Well I'm replying as best as I can based on how much of your posts I understand.

I am not asking you to justify morality, morality is a given

What I am asking is, given that morality is a given, how do you proceed on the basis of what you know about Evolution?

I don't think evolution anything to do with it. If morality is a given then be moral. Evolution is a theory just like gravity or germ theory.

This is nothing new, Evolutionists claim morality is a given all the time, they say things like "well if its good for the society, you do it"

What is interesting is that at the same time that you want to say Evolution is true and I can say morality is a given in my own way, you say "you can't say morality is a given though" because of the same Evolution, so there is an obvious contradiction there either way you look at it

I have no idea what you think the contradiction is. I don't get what it is you're asking.

If you think morality is real then be moral. It doesn't have much to do with evolution.
 
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