• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Smithsonian Human Ancestors

Status
Not open for further replies.

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The Smithsonian Institution has a website which presents the claims of modern neo-Darwinist evolutionary theorists that the human ancestors of all American people originated and descended from non-human ape-like creatures in Africa.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/ances_start.html

I would like to know if anyone would like to fellowship with me (and hopefully other creationists) in examining and exploring the information posted in the Smithsonian website for purposes of discovering, discussing and exposing the biased and prejudicial assumptions and logic inherent in their claims concerning the origins of all American people from Africa.
 

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I would be delighted to discuss this website with you and anyone else JC. I have cited, linked and quoted from this site again and again and you are the first person to actually show an interest in discussing it. There seems to be 3 catagories in the family tree lineup. There are the Austropithecenes (apes), Homo lines (apes), followed by the Neanderthals and other humans. Does that sum up the general outline of the Smithsonian site John?

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
mark kennedy said:
I would be delighted to discuss this website with you and anyone else JC. I have cited, linked and quoted from this site again and again and you are the first person to actually show an interest in discussing it. There seems to be 3 catagories in the family tree lineup. There are the Austropithecenes (apes), Homo lines (apes), followed by the Neanderthals and other humans. Does that sum up the general outline of the Smithsonian site John?

Grace and peace,
Mark
Hi Mark: Grace and peace. I'm not sure what you mean by "Homo lines (apes)." Homo habilis? It certainly is a misleading taxon and bears special attention and investigation in order to expose it's biased and prejudiced, if not downright fraudulent concoction by Leakey, Tobias and Napier when they announced it's creation in Nature Magazine in 1964.

What I am proposing is that we take snippets of data and information posted on the Smithsonian site and respond to it as we do to the comments of other posters on the forum. I don't think we are breaking any copyright laws by copying a few sentences and commenting on them as I have done with the following exerpts from the site:

Virtually every human society shares a fascination with our deep past.
Historically, culturally and religiously, that fascination within every human society has been a deep reverence and respect for the ancestral origins of all members of that society, not just a few. Whether the ideas of that society's origins in the deep past are based on tribal, linguistic, racial, political or just nationalistic legends, the memories or accounts themselves tend to consolidate themselves into some form of mythological or religious belief structure which serves as a cohesive link to the imagined or recorded reality of the past.

For many of us, the study of human origins and evolution from our ape-like ancestors (also called paleoanthropology) is one of the most exciting scientific fields because it investigates the origin, over millions of years, of the universal and defining traits that make our species what it is.
"For many of us" must be qualified as, and limited to, the few isolated paleoanthropologists in our greater American society who assume that all Americans "evolved from ape-like ancestors" or think that paleoanthropology is any more of a science than anthropolgy, sociology (social science), psychology or political science is. Paleoanthropologists, professionally speaking, have yet to scientifically prove their unfounded faith in the existence of "millions of years," and are not necessarily qualified to define the "universal" traits which make normal people like you, I and most other Americans, human.

It is the science that shines light on the question, "What does it mean to be human?"
If paleoanthropology is the "science" that sheds light on that question, then what do we need psychologists, social and political scientists or lawyers for?

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/ances_start.html
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
John,

Forgive me for not replying to your post directly, I would very much like to but other things are distracting me. What follows is from my first formal debat with a confirmed evolutionist. I think it has some pretty good information and I promise I will give you a more detailed expostion of your post when I can. I noticed that after I introduced the fossil evidence the evolutionists simply did not have much to say. This is crucial John, don't you give up on this line of evidence, it's too important.

Check out the family tree that oulines the supposed line of decent and notice the question marks at crucial periods of transition.

Early Human Phylogeny


This means that Homo habilis had a body structure much more like an ape or Australopithecus afarensis, than a modern human. Additionally, as an adult OH 62 had only reached a stature of 1 meter or 3 feet tall. This makes OH 62 the smallest adult hominid to have ever been discovered. It also implies that OH 62 was female, and that there was a significant amount of sexual dimorphism, again, more like apes or A. afarensis (strongly dimorphic) than modern humans (not so dimorphic). Neither of these realizations were expected.

More Questions then Answers

"These researchers feel that the characteristics of H. habilis and H. rudolfensis are more ape-like than modern, a conclusion that would remove them from our genus. This would make Homo a monophyly (all species evolved from a common ancestor), rather than a polyphyly (the species evolved from more than one ancestor) as it is now thought to be. Other reseearchers think, however, that moving the two species out of the genus Homo does not solve the problem since the specimens do not easily fit into the genus Australopithecus as currently defined."

The Homo Habilis Debate

Homo habilis was originally thought to be the ancestor to all later Homo. In a neat, linear progression, later species emerged resulting in what we call modern humans. This is now known not to be the case.

Handy Man

"Stone artefacts on the Indonesian island of Flores indicate the presence of humans over 840,000 years ago and therefore the likelihood of remarkably early sea crossings. These discoveries help fill a gap in the fossil record of South-East Asia. Although skeletons thought to be Homo erectus have been found in Java and dated to over a million years old, there were no other secure indicators of human presence in the region until after 40,000 years ago. The virtual absence of confirmed stone tools prior to this time presented a bit of a problem. "

Handy Man Tools?

Experimentum Crucis

"If the arrival of the modern scientific age could be pinpointed to a particular moment and a particular place, it would be 27 April 1676 at the Royal Society, for it was on that day that the results obtained in a meticulaous experiment-exprimentum crucis-were found to fit with the hypothesis, so transforming a hypothesis into a demonstrable theory."
(The Last Sorcerer, M. White)​

Evolution has failed to provide the crucial demonstrations in genetics and homology needed to support it. Evolution is neither predictive nor subject to the normative laws of demonstration required of all scientific theory. Darwins mythic monstrocities have not only never been found but there would be no way of confirming them if we did. Mendel's Laws of inheritance are the only substantive demonstrable mechanisms of genetic change. After 22,000 noted changes in bean plants with regards to 7 inherited features they were still bean plants. No mythic monstrocites have ever been established as the origin of species even though the requisite evidence needed is well known. It is a myth contrived by a pagan cleric who worshiped an image in the Temple of Nature. Like the Griffin, Menotar, and Cyclops these monstrocities exist only in the mind of imaganitive story tellers and artists.

I hope you will pardon the satire but this was a debate that got heated. I really want to take a closer look at the fossil evidence and the Smithsonian website is a great place to do it. When I couldn't get a rise out of palentology from evolutionist I turned to genetics. The life sciences are profoundly important in this discussions but for now I think the fossil evidence should be examined.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
mark kennedy said:
John,

Forgive me for not replying to your post directly, I would very much like to but other things are distracting me.
Not a problem since we creationists have to learn to deal with a lot of distractions by tricky evolutionists. I was pleasantly surprised to see such a comprehensive and affirmative response at all. You cover so many disputed areas that I will only partially reply to them at this time.
I noticed that after I introduced the fossil evidence the evolutionists simply did not have much to say.
Most posters on the forum don't know much about the fossils or the detailed phylogenetic trees in which neo-Darwinist ape theorists hang out with their ancestors and keep rearranging the fossils and branches all the time in order to convince the American people that they originated from australopithicine apes in Africa.
This is crucial John, don't you give up on this line of evidence, it's too important.
I'm glad you agree that the fossils are more important than abstract genetic claims of human evolution because both the fossils themselves and their constant phylogenetic rearrangement are physically observable to the general public as evidence of manipulative neo-Darwinist attempts to associate original African 'species' of humans and apes with each other. The genetic theories are way beyond the comprehension of most Americans and can only serve in a complementary capacity in attempts to further support phylogenies built on fossil arrangements.
Check out the family tree that oulines the supposed line of decent and notice the question marks at crucial periods of transition.
Early Human Phylogeny
Obviously, the Smithsonian is leaving it's evolutionary options open pending the further excavation and reconstructions of African ape and human fossil discoveries.
This means that Homo habilis had a body structure much more like an ape or Australopithecus afarensis, than a modern human. Additionally, as an adult OH 62 had only reached a stature of 1 meter or 3 feet tall. This makes OH 62 the smallest adult hominid to have ever been discovered. It also implies that OH 62 was female, and that there was a significant amount of sexual dimorphism, again, more like apes or A. afarensis (strongly dimorphic) than modern humans (not so dimorphic). Neither of these realizations were expected.
I notice that OH 62 isn't associated with H. habilis anymore or even listed in the Smithsonian's Catalog of Specimens
More Questions then Answers

Perhaps this is why.
http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~do_while/sage/v4i6f.htm

http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_03.html

I really want to take a closer look at the fossil evidence and the Smithsonian website is a great place to do it. When I couldn't get a rise out of palentology from evolutionist I turned to genetics. The life sciences are profoundly important in this discussions but for now I think the fossil evidence should be examined.
Thanks for your shared interest in the neo-Darwinist website of the illustrious Smithsonian Institute in Washingston, D.C. Hopefully, in some future posts, we can explore and discuss the Smithsonian's unusual tactic of labeling australopithicine apes in Africa as early humans, and why the Smithsonian and U.S. government feel racially justified in publically associating and identifying the ancestors of various American racial groups with australopithicine apes and their ancestors.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The First Humans: The Early Australopiths
[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By at least 4.4 million years ago in Africa, an apelike species had evolved that had two important traits, which distinguished it from other apes: (1) small canine (eye) teeth (next to the incisors, or front teeth) and (2) bipedalism--that is the ability to walk on two legs. Scientists commonly refer to these earliest human species as australopithecines, or australopiths for short.
[/font]
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/faq/Encarta/encarta.htm
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
You might want to check this out, the Homo lineage was decided on this criteria:

"Until now. The definition of Homo has usually centered about a ‘cerebral Rubicon’ of Homo variably set at 700c.c. (Weidenreich), 750 c.c. (Keith) and 800 c.c. (Vallwis). The proposed new definition follows:

Family HOMINIDAE (AS DEFINED BY Le Gros Clark, 1955)
Genus Homo Linnaeus"

http://www.google.com/search?q=Dart...n-Ape+of+South+Africa&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N

the pollex is well developed and fully opposable and the hand is capable not only of a power grip but of, at the least, a simple and usually well developed precision grip"

What we have here is the contention that the ape not only was habitually bipedal, which we now know to be false, but it had a precision grip. It's a load of baloney, no ape has ever had this kind of a grip and if they did they would not have the mental capacity to craft tools. I they had actually formed tools then we would be seeing the artifacts all over the web, I can't find one. Maybe you will have better luck, good luck with that.

I keep finding assertions that Homo Habilis was made the human ancestor based on the artifacts that they found at the site. Good luck finding the actuall artifacts because the truth is that apes make tools of stones all of the time. I guess chimpanzees use them to break open pistachoes. There are two things to note in this paper, one the habitual bipadeal gait, which means they would have had to walk upright. There is also the opposable thumbs but human beings have precision thumbs. This is not a minor point, this is a catastophic logical diproof of human evolution from apes. Apes had neither the capacity nor the dexterity to craft tools and yet this genus was made without either. These where apes, not unlike the ones we have today. Read the paper John and watch how the evolutionary apologists twist the data to their will.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
mark kennedy said:
You might want to check this out, the Homo lineage was decided on this criteria:

"Until now. The definition of Homo has usually centered about a ‘cerebral Rubicon’ of Homo variably set at 700c.c. (Weidenreich), 750 c.c. (Keith) and 800 c.c. (Vallwis). The proposed new definition follows:

Family HOMINIDAE (AS DEFINED BY Le Gros Clark, 1955)
Genus Homo Linnaeus"

http://www.google.com/search?q=Dart,+R.+A.+Australopithecus+africanus:+The+Man-Ape+of+South+Africa&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N

the pollex is well developed and fully opposable and the hand is capable not only of a power grip but of, at the least, a simple and usually well developed precision grip"
Well, you lost me. Which website in particular was I supposed to view? All of them? Do me a favor. Let's keep this as simple as possible. After all, I'm not an expert in anything, not even Van Tillian presuppostional logic and apologetics ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presuppositional_apologetics#Van_Tillian_presuppositionalism
or Christian Reconstruction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism

What we have here is the contention that the ape not only was habitually bipedal, which we now know to be false, but it had a precision grip.
Ok. Can you put the contention in quotes and provide the link you are quoting it from? Best of all, can you associate it with anything the Smithsonian website says and provide that link.

If they had actually formed tools then we would be seeing the artifacts all over the web, I can't find one. Maybe you will have better luck, good luck with that.
If you are as positive as I am that the Smithsonian neither provides nor can provide evidence of these tools or artifacts, then say so. That way, the American people can call the Smithsonian to account for not being able to provide scientific evidence to back up their claims.

I keep finding assertions that Homo Habilis was made the human ancestor based on the artifacts that they found at the site.
Does the Smithsonian make these assertions?
Do they support theories that do?
Is the Smithsonian propagandizing theories which are unsubstiated by scientific evidence?

There are two things to note in this paper, one the habitual bipadeal gait, which means they would have had to walk upright. There is also the opposable thumbs but human beings have precision thumbs.
Will you provide us with a link to this paper?

Apes had neither the capacity nor the dexterity to craft tools and yet this genus was made without either. These where apes, not unlike the ones we have today. Read the paper John and watch how the evolutionary apologists twist the data to their will.
Gladly. Just give us the link to it.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
john crawford said:
Well, you lost me. Which website in particular was I supposed to view? All of them? Do me a favor. Let's keep this as simple as possible. After all, I'm not an expert in anything, not even Van Tillian presuppostional logic and apologetics ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presuppositional_apologetics#Van_Tillian_presuppositionalism
or Christian Reconstruction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism

That is so weird, I got the paper, downloaded it to my computer and the link is gibberish. I was talking about the Nature April 4, 1964 publication of 'A New Species Of The Genus Homo From Olduvai Gorge'. I thought I had a link to it but now I cant find it, there must be some kind of conspiriacy at work. Only kidding, I will try to track down the paper with a valid link but it's going to take some time.

You asked about Van Till, now that supprised me. Van Till would have told you that evidential apologetics is meaningless because the suppostion of your oppenent won't let him see what is in front of him. Naturalistic assumptions are at the heart of the evolution/creation debate, I have seen it too many times to believe anything else. Science in this day and age will only accept natural explanations for life and that is what we are up against. I don't want to add to the confusion but this is an important concept to get a hold on.


Ok. Can you put the contention in quotes and provide the link you are quoting it from? Best of all, can you associate it with anything the Smithsonian website says and provide that link.

Unfortunatly I can't find the link, even though I downloaded the paper yesterday. :cry: I can tell you about the paper if you are interested though. Two points jumped out at me when reading it for the first time. First of all, they said that the Homo genus had precision thumbs as compared to opposable ones. All apes have opposable thumbs but only humans have precision ones. They described the finds at this site as having precision thumbs and describe them as capable of making tools. I have seen neither the tools nor the fossils that indicate precision thumbs and I find that frustrating.


If you are as positive as I am that the Smithsonian neither provides nor can provide evidence of these tools or artifacts, then say so. That way, the American people can call the Smithsonian to account for not being able to provide scientific evidence to back up their claims.

Actually I am confused, they don't have the tools on the site. This is supposed to be the reason that Homo Habilis was called the 'Handy Man', because he used tools. I have yet to see a single picture and he strikes me as being a knuckle dragging ape. I don't get it, why would this be kept out of the Smithsonian archive? This is not the first time I have looked and I have yet to see these artifacts. I can tell you this, these were not tools. My guess is that chimpanzees or some other form of ape was using stones to beak open nut of some kind and they just look like crude tools.


Does the Smithsonian make these assertions?

They never mention it, that is what is so weird.


Do they support theories that do?

They never mention them, again it's soooo weird.

Is the Smithsonian propagandizing theories which are unsubstiated by scientific evidence?


Why would they leave evidence of tools out of the evidence of a human ancestor? The skull is the size of a grapefruit for crying out load, the tools were the crowning evidence. You tell me, can you find the fossil evidence of precision thumbs (like humans) as opposed to simple opposable thumbs? That was the heart of the emphasis in this paper and it is completly absent from the Smithsonian site.


Will you provide us with a link to this paper?

Give me a couple of days, if I can't find that stupid link I will transcribe the paper from my hard drive. It's a photocopy so I will have to type it out but one way or another I will let you read it.


Gladly. Just give us the link to it.

It's so strange, I brought up this paper in my debate with Aron-Ra and he refused to discuss it. Then I bring it up with you, down load the paper and the link won't work. I'm not kidding, this is a classic, landmark scientific paper. If I fail to find the link I promise you I will send you a transcription of the paper without fail.

Two main points of contention to consider, the thumbs and the brain. I'm sorry the link is so confusing and that really has me baffled. I'll work on this and we can talk some more.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
mark kennedy said:
That is so weird, I got the paper, downloaded it to my computer and the link is gibberish. I was talking about the Nature April 4, 1964 publication of 'A New Species Of The Genus Homo From Olduvai Gorge'. I thought I had a link to it but now I cant find it, there must be some kind of conspiriacy at work. Only kidding, I will try to track down the paper with a valid link but it's going to take some time.
It's not essential since there are problably other links on the web referring to the issue. Don't waste your valuable time looking for lost links. The only reason I asked for it is because it would verify and back up your own comments which I think is essential for us to do. That's why I started the thread, to link and verify everything we and others say to Smithsonian links.
I have seen neither the tools nor the fossils that indicate precision thumbs and I find that frustrating. This is supposed to be the reason that Homo Habilis was called the 'Handy Man', because he used tools. I have yet to see a single picture and he strikes me as being a knuckle dragging ape. I don't get it, why would this be kept out of the Smithsonian archive? This is not the first time I have looked and I have yet to see these artifacts. I can tell you this, these were not tools. My guess is that chimpanzees or some other form of ape was using stones to beak open nut of some kind and they just look like crude tools.
At least we are verifying that the Smithsonian presents no evidence for any claims they make about H. habilis being a tool-user or manufacturer. There's also a big difference between using broken branches and loose stones as tools or weapons, and intentionally striking one rock with another in order to chip off flakes and produce sharp edges on one side of the stone.

The University of California at Berkely seems to have some "choppers" in their anthropology department which they associate with H. habilis.
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/oldowanstonetools.htm

Here's good old Marv Lubenow to the rescue.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v16/i3/stone.asp

Why would they leave evidence of tools out of the evidence of a human ancestor? The skull is the size of a grapefruit for crying out load, the tools were the crowning evidence. You tell me, can you find the fossil evidence of precision thumbs (like humans) as opposed to simple opposable thumbs? That was the heart of the emphasis in this paper and it is completly absent from the Smithsonian site.
Since more may be necessary for the making of stone choppers than "precision thumbs," I would expect the Smithsonian or their supporters to provide demonstrable evidence that either australopithicine apes or the first 'species' of apelike humans in Africa could even learn to manufacture them.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Your not going to believe this John, while looking at your OP I found my way back to a thread where I discussed these things back in August of 2004. At any rate, I can see your serious about this and I think you have managed to get my complete attention.

This is the link to KNM ER 3733, supposedly Homo ergaster had a thriving tool industry.

"By 1.6 million years ago, an advance in stone tool technology is identified with H. ergaster. Known as the Achulean stone tool industry, it consisted of large cutting tools, primarily hand axes and cleavers. Originally thought to be responsible for the spread of early humans beyond Africa, it is now known that the migration out of Africa predates this tool industry."

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/erg.html

This fossil is on the start page that leads up to the human family tree in the Smithsonian's website. Notice that the tools again are not entered there, just the skeletal remains. It gets even stranger when you see what they had to say about this, the migration out of Africa predates this tool industry.

Think about it, human evolution is happening elsewhere but apes are learning to form and use tools. For whatever reason, they don't do that anymore except to take stick and stick them into termite mounds, break open nuts or pick up a club. Now lets see what Talk Origins has to say about this:

"Discovered by Bernard Ngeneo in 1975 at Koobi Fora in Kenya. Estimated age is 1.7 million years. This superb find consisted of an almost complete cranium. The brain size is about 850 cc, and the whole skull is similar to some of the Peking Man fossils. Because the facial features are less robust than that of the Turkana Boy, this skull is thought to be female.

The brain size of 850 cc is extremely small by modern standards. A very similar skull, ER 3883, is even smaller, at 800 cc. "

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/3733.html

Just notice the skull size and why don't they bother to show the tools these apes were supposed to have been using? I think there is good reason to be skeptical of the use of tools given the cranial size and the lack on interest on the part of the Smithsonian.

I think it's time to start systematically organizing this. I'm going to give this some thought and take another, much closer look, at the Smithsonian family tree. I wonder if we could list the various phases of human evolution leading up to the Neanderthals and analyze the actual evidece.

I have the germ of a theory, ape brains don't expand and tool use is directly related to cranial size. If it's possible to dismiss the tool use then the crucial point would be the cranial capacity. KNM ER 3733 is very small and it is dated 1.7 million years ago. Early homo sapiens are emerging about 400,000 years ago with cranial capacities close to modern proportions. That gives them a million years to nearly triple the size of the cranium.

Henry Morris said once that fossils are kept in the back room of natural museums because people might figure this out if they didn't. I am begining to wonder if getting these fossils out of the backroom is exactly what should be happening.

Bear with me John, it takes me a while to get up to speed on these things. Eventually I would like to tie these fossils to their original papers. This takes research and I am only begining to come up with a game plan. I'm with you heart and soul but I am shaking off this debate mentality and trying to focus on research.

This is so cool, real research after all of that clamour in the debate forums.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
mark kennedy said:
This is the link to KNM ER 3733, supposedly Homo ergaster had a thriving tool industry.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/erg.html
Think about it, human evolution is happening elsewhere but apes are learning to form and use tools.... Now lets see what Talk Origins has to say about this:

"Discovered by Bernard Ngeneo in 1975 at Koobi Fora in Kenya. Estimated age is 1.7 million years. This superb find consisted of an almost complete cranium. The brain size is about 850 cc, and the whole skull is similar to some of the Peking Man fossils. Because the facial features are less robust than that of the Turkana Boy, this skull is thought to be female.

The brain size of 850 cc is extremely small by modern standards. A very similar skull, ER 3883, is even smaller, at 800 cc. "
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/3733.html
Just notice the skull size and why don't they bother to show the tools these apes were supposed to have been using? I think there is good reason to be skeptical of the use of tools given the cranial size and the lack on interest on the part of the Smithsonian.
Hi Mark: I notice you seem to refer to KNM-ER 3733 and H. ergaster in general as "apes" on two occasions here. Do you not think that H. ergaster and H. erectus fossils are representative of real humans who lived in Africa?
I wonder if we could list the various phases of human evolution leading up to the Neanderthals and analyze the actual evidece.
An excellent suggestion as long as we can relate our findings to the Darwinist progaganda which they post on the Smithsonian Institute's website. Where do we start? With the australopithcine apes which the Smithsonian Institute defines and identifies as "the first humans" and the "earliest human species" of African people?
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The First Humans: The Early Australopiths
[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By at least 4.4 million years ago in Africa, an apelike species had evolved that had two important traits, which distinguished it from other apes: (1) small canine (eye) teeth (next to the incisors, or front teeth) and (2) bipedalism--that is the ability to walk on two legs. Scientists commonly refer to these earliest human species as australopithecines, or australopiths for short.[/font]
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/faq/Encarta/encarta.htm
I have the germ of a theory, ape brains don't expand and tool use is directly related to cranial size. If it's possible to dismiss the tool use then the crucial point would be the cranial capacity. KNM ER 3733 is very small and it is dated 1.7 million years ago.
How do we know that the KNM-ER 3733 skull represents an African population of human beings or non-human apes though?
Henry Morris said once that fossils are kept in the back room of natural museums because people might figure this out if they didn't. I am begining to wonder if getting these fossils out of the backroom is exactly what should be happening.
Believe it or not, there are no original human fossils in the back rooms of the Smithsonian or any other American museum. They are all in Africa, Asia and Europe. - Lubenow.
Bear with me John, it takes me a while to get up to speed on these things. Eventually I would like to tie these fossils to their original papers. This takes research and I am only begining to come up with a game plan. I'm with you heart and soul but I am shaking off this debate mentality and trying to focus on research.
Take your time. We have the rest of our healthy lives to examine the evidence which the prestigious Smithsonian Institute presents as 'evidence' of human evolution.
This is so cool, real research after all of that clamour in the debate forums.
The more clamour we make on the debate forums, the more frustrated and anti-Christian the Darwinists become. Grace and peace likewise.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
john crawford said:
Hi Mark: I notice you seem to refer to KNM-ER 3733 and H. ergaster in general as "apes" on two occasions here. Do you not think that H. ergaster and H. erectus fossils are representative of real humans who lived in Africa?

I don't see how they could be considered human, but that is certainly an interesting thought. The Turkana boy was rejected for 20 years because Dart neglected to take into consideration his youth. If it could be determined that the ratio of brian to body was consistant with human proportions then it is convievable. Honestly, I think this is nothing more then a knuckle draging ape but I still don't know what the EQ is.

An excellent suggestion as long as we can relate our findings to the Darwinist progaganda which they post on the Smithsonian Institute's website. Where do we start? With the australopithcine apes which the Smithsonian Institute defines and identifies as "the first humans" and the "earliest human species" of African people?
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]


The Australopithcine apes are clearly the place to start. I would suggest this, lets take a look at just the skulls and note the supposed changes. What most people overlook is that we are not progressing, we are actually devolving over time, both us and the apes. If you look closely at the fossils of the apes I think you will find what the better developed ape looked like. Let's follow the human family tree from the starting point that they use and take it one skull at a time. I don't mind getting into the other details of course but that is what I am most intersted in.

How do we know that the KNM-ER 3733 skull represents an African population of human beings or non-human apes though?

The size, it's only about 850 cc, with later ancestors actually being smaller.

Smithsonian website said:
Earlier humans had roughly the same body size as modern chimpanzee. Yet this immature male had already surpassed a height of five feet at the time of his death, and probably would have attained a height of 6 feet and a weight of roughly 150 lbs., assuming Homo ergaster underwent an adolescent growthspurt as modern teenagers do. The hips were more slender and adapted to walking and running over long distances. The proportions of his arm and leg bones were like those of modern humans, as opposed to the shorter legs and longer arms (more ape-like proportions) of Homo habilis and A. afarensis. The cranial capacity of WT 15000 is measured at 880cc. Using the same extrapolations that were used for height, it is estimated that he would have attained an adult cranial capacity of 909cc. His body was long and slender, probably adapted to a tropical environment, given that most tropical populations of modern humans are also tall and slender.

This is just so amazing that they could contrive this. He was five foot tall with the brain of an ape size skull. Everything was bigger in the time before the flood and I think this tells us that apes were bigger then then they are today, nothing more. He had a bigger body then apes do today, doesn't it make sense that he would have a bigger skull?



Believe it or not, there are no original human fossils in the back rooms of the Smithsonian or any other American museum. They are all in Africa, Asia and Europe. - Lubenow.

The point is that the actual fossils are hidden away somewhere and all we get about them are those bizzare animated drawings of them.

Take your time. We have the rest of our healthy lives to examine the evidence which the prestigious Smithsonian Institute presents as 'evidence' of human evolution.

The more clamour we make on the debate forums, the more frustrated and anti-Christian the Darwinists become. Grace and peace likewise.

Sure they get frustrated and they are very good at distracting us from the actual evidence. I'm going to work on this a little this weekend and I really want to spend some time on the early ancestors. Instead of arguing against the Darwinian version we should be more focused on what this actually means. We can take a little peak into what the apes were like before the flood. How cool is that?

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
mark kennedy said:
The Turkana boy was rejected for 20 years because Dart neglected to take into consideration his youth.
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_05.html

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/people/dart-ra.htm

Now, back to the Smithsonian for confirmation of our discoveries.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/taung1.html

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/WT15k.html

The Australopithcine apes are clearly the place to start. I would suggest this, lets take a look at just the skulls and note the supposed changes.
Yes. Too bad we can't compare the Taung child's skull to Raymond Dart's or measure his cranial capacity to see if it was equal to that of Turkana Boy.
What most people overlook is that we are not progressing, we are actually devolving over time, both us and the apes.
Interesting you should say that since it is also Jack Cuozzo's contention that humans are devolving. http://www.jackcuozzo.com/wisdom.html

If you look closely at the fossils of the apes I think you will find what the better developed ape looked like.
All right. Just as long as they don't start looking too human.
Let's follow the human family tree from the starting point that they use and take it one skull at a time. I don't mind getting into the other details of course but that is what I am most intersted in.
Cool, since we might also want to examine and follow the Laetoli Footprint Trail one step at a time.
[from Smithsonian]The cranial capacity of WT 15000 is measured at 880cc. Using the same extrapolations that were used for height, it is estimated that he would have attained an adult cranial capacity of 909cc.
He was five foot tall with the brain of an ape size skull.
A cranial capacity of 900 or even 850cc is well within the range of modern humans today, considering the double fact that there are many short people and even some tall people seem to have unduly small heads for their height.
Everything was bigger in the time before the flood and I think this tells us that apes were bigger then then they are today, nothing more.
I believe there are some giant ape fossils which have been unearthed, but it seems rather difficult to identify them as, or confuse them with, humans.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-11/mu-gal111005.php

Ooops. I spoke too soon. Leave it to some Darwinist to associate giant apes with giant humans and to assign common ancestry to them.
http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/giganto.html

He had a bigger body then apes do today, doesn't it make sense that he would have a bigger skull?
All depends on whether a 10 year old boy from Turkana was a non-human ape or not.
Instead of arguing against the Darwinian version we should be more focused on what this actually means. We can take a little peak into what the apes were like before the flood. How cool is that?
Sounds interesting. Besides distinguishing between non-human ape fossils and human fossils, we now have to sort out which apes were pre-flood and which were post-flood. I'm not sure I'm up to that but I'll give it a try.

Grace and peace likewise.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
John,

What a morning I have had, I was looking through you links and went to the Smithsonian web page, 'KNM WT 15000 "The Turkana Boy". Apparently Dart's Turkana Boy was associated with the Piltdown Man scandle. You really have to check this out, it had me reeling:

The evidence was there the entire time. Any researcher could have looked at the teeth with a microscope and noticed an artificial wear pattern, or the fact that one tooth had a coat of paint on it. But why didn't anyone recognize this forgery? One reason is that beacause Piltdown affirmed many scientists' hypotheses, they were reluctant to put it under scientific scrutiny that might have proved it wrong. Museums prominently displayed casts of Piltdown as scientific fact. Ales Hrdlicka, a leading anthropologist here at the Smithsonian, was one of the few scientists to question whether the jaw and cranium went together. But even here in our museum there was an exhibit on display: "Evolution of the Bony Chin" -- from chimpanzee through Piltdown Man to modern humans! -- see to the right. The Piltdown mandible is the second from the top. Many researchers not associated with the forgery simply saw what they wanted to see in Piltdown. Publications on the "ape-like qualities" of the cranium of Piltdown were not uncommon, and these were authored by trained anatomists looking at a fully modern human cranium.​

The Piltdown Man Scandle

Earlier they discuss the Peking Man (Homo erectus) where 40 individules were found.

"Cranial capacities of Homo erectus average around 1000cc, which is far greater than earlier australopiths and even early Homo. The dentition of Homo erectus is nearly identical to modern humans, although the cheek teeth do remain larger, and the mandible is generally more robust. "​

homo erectus

The fossils they show are just skull caps and they think it's about 1,000 cc. The reconstruction shows a protruding (ape like) face. They base this on a skull cap and I am far from trusting of paleontologists for this kind of thing.

This morning before I got into the Homo erectus and Piltdown Man pages I was looking at Richard Dawkins 'The Ancestors Tale'. Ronald Clarke finds a hominid foot in a box of monkey bones and half a shin bone. This box had been put there 16 years previously. So he decides he wants his African assistants to go look for the other half, I'm not putting you on, this comes straight from the leading Darwinian of our day.

"Bits of Little Foots left foot were dug up from Sterkfontein in 1978, but the bones were stored away, unremarked and unlebelled, until 1994 when the paleontologist Ronald Clarke, working under the direction of Phillip Tobias, accidentially rediscovered them in a box in the she used by workers at the Sterkfontein cave. Three years later, Clarke chanced upon another box of bones from Sterkfontein, in a stree room at Witwatersrand University. This box was labelled ‘Cercopithecoids’. Clarke had an interst in this kind of monkey, so he looked in the box and was delighted to notice a hominid foot bone in amongst the monkey bones several foot and leg bones in the box seemed to match the bones found in the Sterkfontein shed. One was half a right shinebone, broken across. Clarke gave a cast of the shinbone to two African assistants, Nkawne Molefe and Stephen Motsumi, and asked them to return to Sterkfontein and look for the other half.

The task I had set them was like looking for a needle in a haystack as the rotto is an enormous, deep dark cavern with breccia exposed on the walls, floor and ceiling. After two days of searching with the aid of hand-held lamps, they found it on 3 July 1997.

Molefe and Motsumi’s jigsaw feat was the more astonishing because the bone that fitted their cast was

At he opposite end to where we had previously excavated. The fit was perfect, despite the boine having been blasted apart by lime workers 65 or more years previously. To the left of the exposed end of the right tibia could be seen the section of the broken-off shaft of the lift fibula. From their postitions with the lower limbs in the correct anatomical relationship, it seemed that the whole skeleton had to be there, lying face downwards.

Actually, it wasn’t quite there but, after pondering the geological colapses in the area, Clarke deduced where it must be and, sure enough, Motsumi’s chisel found it there. Clarke and his team wre indeed lucky but here we have a first-class example of that maxim of scientists since Louis Pasteur: Fortune favours the prepared mind.​

(Richard Dawkins, The Ancestors Tale)

They find it after two days of searching and this has become know as Little Foot. Ok, that was the little tangent I got off on but I have a little information on the Australopithecus africanus. The Smithsonian attributes this species to a collection of over 300 fossils. The Laetoli foot print was discovered by Mary Leakey who discovered 80 fossils from two different sites near Lake Turkana. Get this, no skull was ever found.

I have some other things I want to share with you but it's playoff time and I'm going to watch the Colts game. I just wanted to let you know what I found this morning, especially about the Piltdown Man scandle.

These are prime examples of people seeing what they want to see in the evidence. This is why the single common ancestor model is prejudiced and leading well meaning scientists astray. I don't know how many times I was told that there are mountains of evidence supporting evolution. What it really comes down to is suppostion and starting with the conclusion rather then following the evidence.

Grace and peace,
Mark

P.S. pardon the typos I know have to be throughout this post. I'll edit it later but right now I'm a little short on time.
 
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
mark kennedy said:
Earlier they discuss the Peking Man (Homo erectus) where 40 individules were found.



"Cranial capacities of Homo erectus average around 1000cc, which is far greater than earlier australopiths and even early Homo. The dentition of Homo erectus is nearly identical to modern humans, although the cheek teeth do remain larger, and the mandible is generally more robust. "​

homo erectus

The fossils they show are just skull caps and they think it's about 1,000 cc. The reconstruction shows a protruding (ape like) face. They base this on a skull cap and I am far from trusting of paleontologists for this kind of thing.

In your above quote, Mark, it says: "The dentition of Homo erectus is nearly identical to modern humans."

Rather than using this thread to discuss the merits of Homo erectus as a species of non-human apes or simply a morphological variety of fully modern humans like ourselves, I am going to open a new thread for that purpose.
 
Upvote 0

Remus

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2004
666
30
55
Austin, TX
✟23,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

john crawford

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2003
3,754
9
84
usa
Visit site
✟3,968.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Remus said:
I went poking around that site a bit and noticed this guy:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/skhul.html
Ah, yes. This guy's modern skull has evolved into 90,000 years old since the last time he was 'dated' by Darwinists who now need some modern Homo sapiens out of Africa in Israel to precede the Neanderthals who were there 60,000 years ago. After all, we can't have modern high-domed sapiens craniums evolving from Neanderthal flatheads in Israel, of all places.
Going back to this article:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/hominids.html
I would think that this skull should be present in this picture.
Oh, my goodness, gracious grief. Linking up and associating talkorigins with the Smithsonian Institute all in one post? I can't believe it. I love the way talkorigins still has the Neanderthals listed as "Homo sapiens neanderthalensis." How quaint. Don't they realize that reliable and definitive DNA tests have proved beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that the Neanderthals were not a subspecies of Homo sapiens but an entirely different and separate species now called 'Homo neanderthalensis' which didn't have an equal opportunity to interbreed with superior "Cro-Magnon" Homo sapiens sapiens who came on the scene in la France 30 - 40,000 years ago and replaced those danged old-fashioned Neanderthal brutes?

(J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Ferrassie 1, 70,000 y
(K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 y
(L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 y
(M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 y
(N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern

This is great, Remus. By showing us that the talkorigins and Smithsonian websites both list australopithicine apes as the direct forbears, progenitors and ancestors of human beings in Africa, we can forever put to rest the denials by evolutionists that their theories do not predict the origin of African people from African apes of one kind or another.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.