Slowly Embracing Catholicism, Rough Patch

[ChristIsSovereign]

While, somewhere in my heart, I believe the Catholic Church to be the real church, in some way, I am battling something which I will probably battle for months or even years.

There's so many uncharitable 'debates' between Protestants and Catholics over the intercession of the Saints, with the former calling it necromancy and the latter embracing it as us communing with the living Saints in Heaven; it leaves me torn apart.

I can't help but think that I'm engaging in witchcraft if I'd ever have 'intercession with a Saint,' y'know. It tears me up inside. I know in my heart that I am no Protestant yet the issues still berate my mind. Earlier today, I was feeling closer to God than ever by reading the Pope's apostolic exhortation, but my doubts came rushing back and I'm paralyzed again... UGH. What makes it worse is that I have a severe anxiety disorder, which makes me tremble in worry.

I need fellow Christians to intercede for me. I'm too paralyzed to pray right now...

I would appreciate prayers from Christians of all walks of faith, and all types of Christian faith as well, even Protestants who don't believe in Catholicism at all.

• EDIT: I hate my own post because I'm so self-critical. It's terrible when you worry that you'll offend everyone.

 

[thesunisout]

Don't worry, your post isn't offensive! I certainly understand struggling with doubts and wondering who is right among all of the competing voices. I will pray that God will make His will clear to you regarding this subject. The word tells us that the Holy Spirit will reveal all of the truth to us.

Since this is a prayer request I will not debate or add to anything you said except that Jesus Christ is our intercessor before the Lord:

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

1 John 2:1

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Gods word tells us about all of the things you are speaking of. Search the scriptures to see if these things are so. God bless

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Don't worry, your post isn't offensive! I certainly understand struggling with doubts and wondering who is right among all of the competing voices. I will pray that God will make His will clear to you regarding this subject. The word tells us that the Holy Spirit will reveal all of the truth to us.

Since this is a prayer request I will not debate or add to anything you said except that Jesus Christ is our intercessor before the Lord:

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

1 John 2:1

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Gods word tells us about all of the things you are speaking of. Search the scriptures to see if these things are so. God bless

I like how each word is a link to its corresponding Greek word. That is actually very informative. I am aware that Jesus Christ is the only one that I truly worship.

The difference we have is that I believe that asking those in Heaven to pray for me is no different than asking others on here to pray for me, except that I can't directly hear from a Saint who passed onto the next life, so it's just knowing they brought my concern before the Lord, you know. I will be accused of necromancy on this regard but I do not seek to cause dissention between anyone and absolutely do not seek to summon a Saint from the dead if that's what you're thinking.

 

[Mountainmike]

I made the same journey. Suffered the same struggles.
Resources for you.. all worth the time and trouble.
"journeyhome" by coming home network - chnetwork.org interviews with HUNDREDS of pastors and theologians of every denomination and none, and how they conquered the same mental struggles and difficult of areas of doctrine ultimately coming home to Rome because of the early church.
.
"reason to believe" series edited by Patrick Madrid - testimoneis in written form

I most recently saw (on here!) the story of one "church of christ" would be minister "lizziesanswers" on youtube just came home from Church of christ a week ago.. If you can handle her enthusiasm!


You are not alone...

And a couple of arguments you may not have considered about the "great cloud of witnesses" who "rejoice in heaven" at a sinner that repents whose "prayers are there at the altar of God"

History records that the final new testament canon was a product of the authority of the church to "Bind and Loose", but also to hand down the faith by tradition (a process not a doctrine). Now if you study what those fathers believed they believed in intercession. Such as ephraim vociferous on intercession of Mary


So how can we trust she has "pester power" to influence our Lord?
Here it is in scripture.

We know that Jesus was a davidic king, and the angel heralded that line at the annunciation: indeed Jesus did all he could to reinforce that linkage, so "riding on a donkey" was a direct reference back to the very same act by a davidic king in Solomons time. Why else did Jesus do that? except to reinforce the link?

Thats why we can be certain that the "keys of the kingdom" given to Peter are a direct reference back to the "keys of david" (which incidentally in Isaiah also gives the title "father" to the holder) to a succession office similar to prime minister when the king is away. Indeed God has always had a leader on earth for his faithful. Moses, abraham and so on. Now successors of Peter.

But - something you may not know - We know from Isaiah that the mother of a davidic king was entitled Queen as mother, not spouse of the King - which is the reason many davidic mothers are named in scripture - So Mary is properly titled "queen" and since Jesus kingdom is heaven, she is therefore (honorary only title) "queen of Heaven".We do not invent that from excess enthusiasm. That is the title OT scripture would give her!

BUT WE ALSO know from Isaiah that gave her the power of intercession - the king gave her a throne, bowed to her and said "I will do whatever you ask". Look it up!
These are not coincidences. Jesus did all he could to align to the davidic kingdom so his audience would understand. Which we see the power of intercession at Cana - Jesus acting at the behest of Mary but saying what have you to do with me now "my time has not yet come" saying "not yet, later" . Jesus' time has now come.

From revelations 12 we see her "head ringed with stars"and we know that her "offspring are those who keep the commandments". We know this is Mary. Because the original gospel did not have chapters and the last verse of revelations 11 is "behold the ark of the covenant" - then describing the woman her head ringed with stars whose child would rule with a rod of Iron. A direct reference back to the messianic prophesies in the OT.

Incidentally it is the same word in ancient language "woman what have you to do with me now" "woman behold yourson" at the cross and "behold a woman, her head ringed with stars" Scripture is consistent.

So there are scriptures that underpin "the cloud of witnesses" whose "prayers are there at the altar of God" and prime among them Mary, given powers of intercession as a davidic queen.

Tradition is how the faith was passed, including that meaning for relevant scripture

Hope those thoughts help.

While, somewhere in my heart, I believe the Catholic Church to be the real church, in some way, I am battling something which I will probably battle for months or even years.

There's so many uncharitable 'debates' between Protestants and Catholics over the intercession of the Saints, with the former calling it necromancy and the latter embracing it as us communing with the living Saints in Heaven; it leaves me torn apart.

I can't help but think that I'm engaging in witchcraft if I'd ever have 'intercession with a Saint,' y'know. It tears me up inside. I know in my heart that I am no Protestant yet the issues still berate my mind. Earlier today, I was feeling closer to God than ever by reading the Pope's apostolic exhortation, but my doubts came rushing back and I'm paralyzed again... UGH. What makes it worse is that I have a severe anxiety disorder, which makes me tremble in worry.

I need fellow Christians to intercede for me. I'm too paralyzed to pray right now...

I would appreciate prayers from Christians of all walks of faith, and all types of Christian faith as well, even Protestants who don't believe in Catholicism at all.

• EDIT: I hate my own post because I'm so self-critical. It's terrible when you worry that you'll offend everyone.

 

[thesunisout]

I like how each word is a link to its corresponding Greek word. That is actually very informative.

I'm not sure how I made it copy over like that! I'll have to do some research now. blueletterbible.org is a place you can go to easily look up the greek and hebrew meanings of scripture.

I am aware that Jesus Christ is the only one that I truly worship.

The difference we have is that I believe that asking those in Heaven to pray for me is no different than asking others on here to pray for me, except that I can't directly hear from a Saint who passed onto the next life, so it's just knowing they brought my concern before the Lord, you know. I will be accused of necromancy on this regard but I do not seek to cause dissention between anyone and absolutely do not seek to summon a Saint from the dead if that's what you're thinking.

[Staff edit]. The question I would ask is, how does the bible teach us to pray? Here are a couple of scriptures to meditate on.

Luke 11:1-9

Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”

2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.

A Friend Comes at Midnight
5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs.

Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you

Philippians 4:6-7

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus

Ephesians 6:17-20

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

While, somewhere in my heart, I believe the Catholic Church to be the real church, in some way, I am battling something which I will probably battle for months or even years.

There's so many uncharitable 'debates' between Protestants and Catholics over the intercession of the Saints, with the former calling it necromancy and the latter embracing it as us communing with the living Saints in Heaven; it leaves me torn apart.

I can't help but think that I'm engaging in witchcraft if I'd ever have 'intercession with a Saint,' y'know. It tears me up inside. I know in my heart that I am no Protestant yet the issues still berate my mind. Earlier today, I was feeling closer to God than ever by reading the Pope's apostolic exhortation, but my doubts came rushing back and I'm paralyzed again... UGH. What makes it worse is that I have a severe anxiety disorder, which makes me tremble in worry.

I need fellow Christians to intercede for me. I'm too paralyzed to pray right now...

I would appreciate prayers from Christians of all walks of faith, and all types of Christian faith as well, even Protestants who don't believe in Catholicism at all.

• EDIT: I hate my own post because I'm so self-critical. It's terrible when you worry that you'll offend everyone.

Pray, discern and go to RCIA. Its important to stress the need of walking with God not running in front of him. If you go through RCIA it doesnt mean you have to be catholic. Sometimes people go through the course and leave at the end. Some of which comes back ten years later and convert other we never see again.
Be honest with yourself and your struggles. Dont be afraid of telling Padre how you feel and what you think is stumbling blocks on your journey towards Rome.

Again Walk...


You are in my prayers brother

 

[Mountainmike]

Oh... In all those words, I forgot to say.
Praying for you!
It is tough,but you will find peace at the end of the Journey, and the reward of heaven meets earth in the Mass, our Lord truly present in the eucharist.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Oh... In all those words, I forgot to say.
Praying for you!
It is tough,but you will find peace at the end of the Journey, and the reward of heaven meets earth in the Mass, our Lord truly present in the eucharist.

Amen. Book IV in 'Of the Imitation of Christ' deals with such a precious reality.

 

[SolomonVII]

Maybe what it boils down to is what Jesus commented on when he talked about God being a God of the living and not the dead.Necromancy is playing with fire, for sure, and making oneself vulnerable to all kinds of evil spirits.
For that reason alone we ought not be making contact with any spirits that have passed on. We have no idea if they are of the living or the dead, for the most part. Even more than that though, even if we can be confident that those good souls that we knew in this life are among the living,Last Rites sets a boundary that we ought not cross. we need to respect the loss of loved ones, and follow the directions of the Risen Jesus to Mary Magdalene to not cling to him for he has not yet ascended to the Father. It is a different kind of relationship that exists between those of this earth and those passing on to the hereafter, even if they have entered into the sleep of Christ.
But what communion with the Saints is really teaching is that there most certainly must be some people who we can be certain have entered into the Kingdom of the Father. Communion with the Saints does not imply carrying on a relationship with family and friends who have passed on. It does not mean the conjuring up of spirits in order to get information out of them. That is macabre and Biblically forbidden even if it is conjuring the spirit of a saint.
Instead what the Church has done is beautified a select few exemplars of the Faith who we may remember through prayers in recognition of the fact that death itself has been conquered by Christ. Through Christ we remain connected with the entire community of the Church, which is eternal.
We do not cling to those who have passed on like a child to a mother, of a wife to a husband. It is no longer that kind of relationship for us, just as it was not for Mary with the Risen Christ. It is a much more formal type of relationship we enter into with the Saints of the eternal sphere, a more formal remembrance. Communion with the Saints is recognition that death is not the final chapter of a a Redeemed people, and the work of the Redeemed carries on, even after people have entered into the rooms that the Father has prepared for us up in heaven.

 

[Mountainmike]

By the way, you may already know this.

But Jesus anticipated that a means would be needed to resolve doctrinal disputes - which shows that scripture was not enough without authority on meaning..
Thats why he gave the apostles and successors (and peter individually) the power to "bind and loose", which means give definitive rulings on doctrine and law, and that is what the phrase meant to 1st century Jews.

So that is also why "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church, the household of God" which refutes the idea "all truth is in scripture"

It is that power to rule on doctrine that is wielded in council, and that is what we rely on in accepting even "what is scripture" - the canon of the newtestament. It was councils and fathers ruled our new testament canon (and had earlier rejected earlier canons like Marcions) - it is demonstrable that the church at Rome ruled against Marcions canon (the first), so clearly the church decided what was scripture, so we rely on the inspiration of those in the church put in such position to rule. So scripture, tradtion and authority are inseparable if you want to know the word of God.

The church was ever thus. Indeed jesus remarks on the truth spoken from Moses seat the "ex cathedra" statements of the old covenant.

It took me years to put these pieces of the jigsaw together!

Praying for you...

 

[PloverWing]

I will be praying for you, that God will walk with you through this time of discernment, and that at the end of it you will find your true church home, and God's peace there.

 

[A_Thinker]

While, somewhere in my heart, I believe the Catholic Church to be the real church, in some way, I am battling something which I will probably battle for months or even years.

There's so many uncharitable 'debates' between Protestants and Catholics over the intercession of the Saints, with the former calling it necromancy and the latter embracing it as us communing with the living Saints in Heaven; it leaves me torn apart.

I can't help but think that I'm engaging in witchcraft if I'd ever have 'intercession with a Saint,' y'know. It tears me up inside. I know in my heart that I am no Protestant yet the issues still berate my mind. Earlier today, I was feeling closer to God than ever by reading the Pope's apostolic exhortation, but my doubts came rushing back and I'm paralyzed again... UGH. What makes it worse is that I have a severe anxiety disorder, which makes me tremble in worry.

I need fellow Christians to intercede for me. I'm too paralyzed to pray right now...

I would appreciate prayers from Christians of all walks of faith, and all types of Christian faith as well, even Protestants who don't believe in Catholicism at all.

• EDIT: I hate my own post because I'm so self-critical. It's terrible when you worry that you'll offend everyone.

A quite well-worded and open-hearted post.

[Staff edit].

I will pray for your spiritual progress and peace.

 

[Hearingheart]

While, somewhere in my heart, I believe the Catholic Church to be the real church, in some way, I am battling something which I will probably battle for months or even years.

There's so many uncharitable 'debates' between Protestants and Catholics over the intercession of the Saints, with the former calling it necromancy and the latter embracing it as us communing with the living Saints in Heaven; it leaves me torn apart.

I can't help but think that I'm engaging in witchcraft if I'd ever have 'intercession with a Saint,' y'know. It tears me up inside. I know in my heart that I am no Protestant yet the issues still berate my mind. Earlier today, I was feeling closer to God than ever by reading the Pope's apostolic exhortation, but my doubts came rushing back and I'm paralyzed again... UGH. What makes it worse is that I have a severe anxiety disorder, which makes me tremble in worry.

I need fellow Christians to intercede for me. I'm too paralyzed to pray right now...

I would appreciate prayers from Christians of all walks of faith, and all types of Christian faith as well, even Protestants who don't believe in Catholicism at all.

• EDIT: I hate my own post because I'm so self-critical. It's terrible when you worry that you'll offend everyone.

May the Lord clearly direct you to where he would have you be placed within the Body of Christ.Lord, I ask that you remove confusion and anxiety. Please bring peace and clarity your child. In Jesus' Name.

 

[SolomonVII]

Jesus once mentioned something to the effect that a seed must fall to the ground in order for the crop to be raised. He did not see his death as the end of his work, but the beginning. One seed of wheat produces seven and so on and so on and so on. It was like Elisha rising up from the work of the great prophet Elijah with seven times the miraculous effect.
That is who Jesus was, and that is who the saints are. They are not idols. They are not ghosts or aspirations, or supernatural visitations conjured up from the grave through prayer and invocation.
They are the crop produced through believing in Jesus and following in the Way that he set out for all of us.
I was recently giving advise to my daughter on a school project and the works of Rene Girard came up. From social science, he understands that people are born mimics. We all copy the behaviors of those who we admire and look up to. We want to become like they, and they set the examples for us.
That is the role of prayer to the saints, to remember the paths that Jesus led them on, and to follow in those paths as they traverse through our own experiences and our own lives.
One biography is limited in space and time and culture. Except for the Middle East sharia states, bodies are not much crucified to crosses any more. Our crosses are metaphors, and the way that other saints carried their crosses as the followed Jesus may be pertinent to our lives too.
Prayer to the saints is remembering who the particular saint was, and how the saint may set a good example that would be pertinent to our situations here and now. Prayers to saints are above all meditations on issues such as that.

We imitate. We look to people as examples. From the time that we are infants, the first smile of our mother becomes the smile on our own faces. We are toddlers with shaving cream on our faces just like dad.
And we are air guitarists striving to have a life of groupies and parties like our rock star idols too, how to be cool and popular like the popular kids.

We imitate. We copy others. That is inevitable. That is how we learn.

What are we learning by imitating the Saints who have followed the example of Christ in their own lives that is a making this issue a stumbling block for us?

There are potential abuses to be sure. Erasmus, at the beginning of the Protestant Reformation identified some, such as calling on Mary to bless the dice that the gambler was throwing. Superstitions and belief in amulets abound even now.

But examples of saintly behavior abound too. One Seed falling to the ground and dying has filled the granaries of the world with a crop of saints too numerous to count. The goodness of these saints are there for us too, if we want them to be.

 

[GodIsAlwaysNear]

I don't have much to offer you here other than prayers.

I pray that god shows you his guidance and provides you with strength. You must always know god is there. He may not always make things easy. He is guiding you and waiting for you to find him. BLESSED BE GOD

 

[thecolorsblend]

I can't help but think that I'm engaging in witchcraft if I'd ever have 'intercession with a Saint,' y'know. It tears me up inside. I know in my heart that I am no Protestant yet the issues still berate my mind.

The Church has some hard teachings, there's no denying it. It sounds like you're only just getting started so I think you're going a little hard on yourself if you expect to be able to instantly absorb everything. Some things will probably take longer than others.

I need fellow Christians to intercede for me. I'm too paralyzed to pray right now...

Done.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Another thing that will be extraordinarily hard to accept is that I was vehemently cessationist as well and I still hold onto the idea of mystical experiences not being of God.

Is that a normal position to hold?

 

[SnowTiger]

I pray that God will help answer all of the questions in your mind about Catholicism and Protestantism. I pray that you will be guided to the proper church. Amen.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

I pray that God will help answer all of the questions in your mind about Catholicism and Protestantism. I pray that you will be guided to the proper church. Amen.

Thank you for your prayers!

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

[Staff edit].

I have a solemn update:

The Holy Spirit drew me away from Catholic beliefs.

Have I re-embraced Protestantism? No, actually.

From what I've seen, I ride a fine line between Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy, actually. I don't have full beliefs in regards to the intercession of the Saints while I am most definitely open to discussions about such. I believe in honoring Mary and the Saints, and admiring their Christian life and to reflect upon such things, so that we may shape our lives to become more like Christ's.

There are certain Catholic doctrines I am pretty cool with, but most of those doctrines overlap with Protestantism, actually, so I have no room to speak. The only things that would be different is that I believe it is wholesome to offer a monk and nun position, and to have monasteries and nunneries in such regards. I also fully, wholeheartedly believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, a Biblical principle in my fully honest opinion.

Yes, I honestly agree that the supremacy of the Papacy is simply irreconcilable with my faith. God does not play favorites with anyone and the Pope is no exception. I do not believe that any Pope is infallible, no matter how much I admire Francis. (His latest exhortation is good Christian reading, no doubt.)

My view of sola scriptura and prima scriptura have become a mix of the two, honestly. The Bible is the utmost basis for religious practice and worship, but tradition is mentioned in the Bible and I find Eastern Orthodoxy closer to the apostolic faith than Catholicism, by a long shot.

When I came across the Catholic beliefs of 'being a slave to Mary,' and the Immaculate Conception, and such, it threw me off so badly that I couldn't ignore it anymore. It wasn't just mental burden this time around, but the Holy Spirit telling me to back off, because I was getting too far outside of Biblical jurisdiction, per se. Hence the semi-sola scriptura view I hold.

So my slow embracing of Catholicism has turned into an aversion of full-on Catholicism and an embracing of apostolic and Biblical Christianity. I have to owe it to my Protestant mother to tell me to check the Scriptures to see if these things are so. That's what I did, and praise God for leading me in a more sanctified and holy direction in my new Christian walk.