Slavery

Then God condones slavery.

Click to expand...

In Ot times Slavery was apart of life, just like now.

I say this With respect, even in your idea of freedom, you are still a slave. No one anywhere can do whatever he wants or wills. Here in the western society we are a slave to the dollar, our government, our collective perception of righteousness, and if you choose to be a true "thinker" then eventually you will freely turn yourself and you mind over to the process of higher learning..

I say this, Because what is a slave?? It is someone who is owned by another, Who's will and thoughts are second to his masters.. A slave is bound to what he serves..

In your life being bound to the dollar will ultimately cause you to spend the majority of your natural life working.. If given the choice and if all things were equal (you got paid either way) would you work for a living? If you said no, then know that your will has come second to the will of your master here...

If our government chose to remove some of your "rights" but replace them with universal heath care, would there be anything you could personally do about it? Here your rights as an individual have been violated, for you masters perception of what you want.

Have you ever been in a group of P/C people, and simply state that that marriage should be between one man and one woman when asked? Here your beaten back for not thinking like popular society thinks. It would seem To be Politically Correct is to have tolerance for all who think as you do, and to admonish everyone else.. Where is true freedom here? Being labeled Not P/C will bind you like a chain, (or dramatically effect you in a negative way,) socially or even professionally

When you go to collage you are basically signing over your right to think for yourself in trade for an education, so that you maybe a well paid slave to the Almighty dollar. If you don't think so then try and oppose some of the theory being taught as scientific truth, and see if you graduate.. The deal is, that the university will certify you as a certain brand of "thinker." a state or graduate thinker, but not one in general.. Where is your freedom if you are told what and how to think? That somehow someone else's guess of how everything began more correct, than the one you like..

In life we will be slaves, their is no way around it.

God does approve of slavery, but with rules and restriction for those who would be a master.. The world however (Now and in the Past) has no restrictions on how a master will act toward a slave. (This is why you misunderstand the term) We (as the world) have taken an awesome biblical concept and perverted it far beyond what God had intended.

For example: If you loose your Job, will your master (money) continue to pay the bills? Does this master even have a provision or command that would have other servants help you in your bills till you get back on your feet? God has made such a provision to all who serve Him. But "Money," will see to it that all you have be stripped from you, leaving you with nothing.
Being a servant/slave of God, is not being a slave in the 18th century America.

Exodus 21:20-21 says "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." It clearly states that it is OK to beat a slave so long as he doesn't die.

Click to expand...

All of that other stuff said, Know that these verses are not commandment to own slaves, but guide lines to the OT Jews who did own slaves.

Hi Anthony, I suppose your idea that God condones slavery is that God is wrong?

When the Law was written, the culture of the near middle east included the concept of being a slave or bondservant of a wealthy person. So the Law provides directions for management of the relationship between slave and master. In the passage you referenced, Exodus 21:20-21, a Master is allowed to punish a slave by hitting the slave, male or female, with a rod, provided the slave is not killed or significantly injured, unable to function within a day or two. The supposed penalty for this practice is the loss of wealth the slave might have produced during the period of recovery.

But the bottom line is this, it was the Christian principle of the brotherhood of man, that resulted in the end of slavery in Britain and in America, not to mention the civil rights movement of Dr. King. Compare to the Hindu caste system of today, using your purely logical view.

Hi my name is anthony. I am fifteen. I have been raised Christian my whole life(nondenominational). I recently decided to look through the Bible with a purely logical view.

Click to expand...

Here's a problem right at the start: Your capacity for logic is far inferior to God's.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

If you think a perfect, infinite God is going to be pressed into your very limited ability to understand Him, you are going to be soon disappointed. It is pride that makes us think we can somehow assess God and His doings. It is this same pride that, in the end, makes us fools for trying.

When i did this, I found that in every book of the Pentateuch ,and some others, there are laws on how to deal with slaves. For example: Exodus 21:20-21 says "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." It clearly states that it is OK to beat a slave so long as he doesn't die.

Click to expand...

Actually, the verse you quoted says to "punish" a slave. It is one thing, I think, to simply beat a slave, like the Egyptians did the Israelites, unjustly or for no good reason at all; it is quite another to punish a slave for theft, or laziness, or violence against another slave or his master. Why haven't you bothered to make such a distinction in your thinking?

In surrounding pagan nations of the time, slaves were beaten to death at the whim of the slave-owner. God in the OT prohibits such wretched treatment of slaves. I should think you'd approve of this rather than object.

My argument are based on these premises.
1. God is good. 2. God (indirectly) wrote the Bible. 3. Because it was written by God and God wants his followers to have something that they can study to follow him in the way that he wants, the Bible is true.

Then taking these, I come to this conclusion.

Because the Bible is true and it reflects God's opinions, and the buying, selling, and mistreatment of slaves are in the Bible. Then God condones slavery.

Click to expand...

It is interesting that you don't take the whole of the Bible into account when you come to your "conclusion." Perhaps you realize that it would upset your conclusion if you did...

Peace.

farrisi said:

Hi my name is anthony. I am fifteen. I have been raised Christian my whole life(nondenominational). I recently decided to look through the Bible with a purely logical view.

When i did this, I found that in every book of the Pentateuch ,and some others, there are laws on how to deal with slaves. For example: Exodus 21:20-21 says "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." It clearly states that it is OK to beat a slave so long as he doesn't die.

My argument are based on these premises.
1. God is good. 2. God (indirectly) wrote the Bible. 3. Because it was written by God and God wants his followers to have something that they can study to follow him in the way that he wants, the Bible is true.

Then taking these, I come to this conclusion.

Because the Bible is true and it reflects God's opinions, and the buying, selling, and mistreatment of slaves are in the Bible. Then God condones slavery.

Click to expand...

Jesus says...

Mark 10:5
"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied.

Somehow Jesus attributes the Laws that were written to being from mose's hand. Perhaps God's preists and moses spoke to God about how they wanted to set up their laws in their theocracy and God granted them because he knew that they could not change their ways or keep a higher law, or couldn't perhaps until the Holy Spirit would be In us not just with us.

farrisi said:

To LJSGM: I refuse to believe that a all powerful God would be stopped by our stubborness.

Click to expand...

Stubbornness is a powerful thing. Even you probably refuse to believe no matter what, so that is probably a fine example.

It was that or destroy us completely...

But God had other plans, it was a momentary period in time with very little population compared to ours. Most of the stories in the OT have spiritual meanings as well, some of them pointing to the messiah, that of Christ. It's better to believe that they are parables or non-literal stories then to not believe in God at all. Just my opinion. So, if that's what it takes for you, you should consider it.

My point is that if God did not believe the literal owning and mistreatment of a fellow human being, who by Christian philosophy has a life of infinite worth, to be a righteous thing, then why not tell his people that it was not right and then give them a set of laws that are righteous.

Click to expand...

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where God condones the unjust "mistreatment of a fellow human being" through slavery. God's laws concerning slavery were directed at preventing the mistreatment of slaves. On the matter of slavery among the Israelites Matthew Henry remarks,

"Through poverty the Israelites sometimes sold themselves or their children; magistrates sold some persons for their crimes, and creditors were in some cases allowed to sell their debtors who could not pay. But "man-stealing," the object of which is to force another into slavery, is ranked in the New Testament with the greatest crimes..."

There was also the "Year of Jubilee" during which those Israelites who had become slaves were released. Perhaps you should take this into account before framing your ideas about God's attitude toward slavery.

God did the same to the Isrealites by letting them bring stolen people to his country. Therefore it seams easy to say that God with all his infinite wisdom is either wrong or believes slavery to not be wrong.

Click to expand...

The situation regarding slavery in the OT is not nearly as simple as what you've outlined above. You appear to need further study of the issue. Also, your willingness to judge God in the wrong in this matter given how little you seem to know of its treatment in the Bible suggests an eagerness on your part to see God in a poor light. Why is that? If you expect to find God an evil character, then you will find yourself jumping to conclusions that support this expectation - as you have done in this matter of slavery.

To aiki: First off I by no means believe that I am omniscient, I don't even have a high school diploma. But what is the point in living in a world if you accept everything blindly.

Click to expand...

Who's asking you to "accept everything blindly"? God certainly isn't, nor am I. However, you are limited in your perspective, as a finite being, and so cannot expect to understand an infinite God perfectly. In those areas where He doesn't make sense to you, are you willing to trust that He knows what He is doing? Or will you assume you know better than God?

Secondly I fail to see what your getting at when you say the whole bible, please explain more.

Click to expand...

I have pointed at some things above that you seem to have missed while making your assessment of God's views on slavery. Also, you have not mentioned anything at all about how the NT factors into how you understand God's perspective on slavery.

Peace.

Hi Anthony, so why didn't God outlaw slavery initially? Because slavery was part of the economic model of the day, the employer/employee model, and therefore provided widespread benefit. His rules moderated the cruelty and planted the seed for a more kindhearted relationship.

I believe the slavery we are forced to deal with is nothing compared to what was forced on the prisoners in those days.

Click to expand...

I think the point you are missing is being obscured here by you own prejudice of the word "slavery."
The mistreatment of a slave is not what God endorses. In having guidelines and restrictions on what is acceptable behavior in dealing with a slave sets apart God's people from the rest of the slave owners.

I also believe you are also confusing 18th American slavery with What it meant to be a slave back then.

In the time of Moses there were the Haves and the Have nots.. There wasn't a stable form of Israeli currency, (What they had came from Egypt) nor were there any trade or labor unions, to make sure everyone got a good deal. If you were a have not you Had to work for a Have. In exchange the Have would provide for you and your family.. These agreement were tied to simple contracts or leases. Which simply meant that you could not go to another Have and work for him for a better deal, and on the have not side He was guaranteed to get whatever he was working for. Daughters hand, land, livestock, pay off a debt etc.. Also as I remember there was a time limitation on a contract as well like every 7 years or so the terms had to be renegotiated.

God's people were/are expected to abide by His rules when dealing with those type of people. Slaves or employees.. In reality the only difference between the two is the service contract guaranteeing each party that they get what they want..

There's already been a lot written on this, but basically, if you robbed someone and couldn't repay that debt (extortion, over borrowing, greed) etc. You were sold into slavery for 7 years to pay off that debt. (As were your family (I understand at times) since they might have starved without a breadwinner in the meantime.) In otherwords no one ended up completley out of pocket or in a desperate situation themselves through your sin or irresponsibility.

There are rules to regulate the treatment of slaves, and if they were too cushy then people would have just laughed it off. Rip off whatever sucker fell into your trap or make stupid decisions and if they fell through, then bludge off them for seven years. Slavery had to be slavery or it wouldn't be enough of a deterrant to put those kind of people off.

However God still cares about individuals, even within that situation, and how slaves should be treated is mentioned in Job 31:13 "If I have rejected the cause of my slaves, when they brought a complaint against me, "what then shall I do when God rises up? When he makes inquiry, what shall I answer him? "Did not he who made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?

God still judges everyone under the same rules.

The other main case for slavery were non-israelites who were also pagan worshippers from the nations around who were trying to destroy israel. They were slaves for life. Which on the surface might sound a bit tough, but since some of them were even sacrificing their own children to their idols at the time (Molech particuarly but also Baal) I think life as a slave in Israel would still have been better. Besides that, if they'd been relased, they could have just gone back to their nations and given them the run down on your strengths and weaknesses as a nation and used that to defeat you. Not very smart.

The other main branch was a concubine - female slave. However if you slept with her she was considered your wife, not some cheap sex-slave. Her father was referred to as your 'father-in-law' in the bible. In the days of dowrys it probably would have been a lot cheaper to get a wife that way.

Read up on the subject (whole subject) in the bible if it interests you and pray about it. God loves his children but he is just.