Sins Not Unto Death

FutureAndAHope · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Several problems with your interpretation on 1 John 1 here.

First, 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So if future sin is forgiven you, then why on Earth do you need to confess of sin to be forgiven of it according to 1 John 1:9? In other words, 1 John 1:9 is proof against your future sin is forgiven theology (Which gives a person a license to sin under God’s grace - See: Jude 1:4).

Second, as for 1 John 1:8: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

“If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Again, how can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Three, you completely side stepped 1 John 1:7. It says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So you have to walk in the light to be saved because the blood of Jesus cleansing us is obviously in reference to our salvation. The indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11 tells us that: “walking in the light” = “loving your brother.” So if we do not love our brother and we hate him, no eternal life abides in us (1 John 3:15), and we are not of God (1 John 3:10).

The Context of 1st John
(From Within the Epistle Itself):

What does John mean by “death?”

It is unlikely John means the physical death common to all humankind, whether righteous or unrighteous. With the exception of the final generation when Jesus returns, all humans will inevitably die. In the only other occurrence of "death" in the epistle (1 John 3:14) John claims true believers have already "passed over out of (ek) death into (eis) life." Those who do not love the brethren are already "abiding in death" (note the Greek present tense – an ongoing state of abiding “in death”). In the Greek clause both “life” and “death” have the definite article; that is, “the life” and “the death.” John is referring to two different spheres or realms: one of life and one of death.

Elsewhere in 1 John we read that those who love the saints “abide in the light” (1 John 2:10), are “born of God (1 John 4:7) and God abides in them (1 John 4:12). In comparison those who hate their brothers and sisters “are in darkness until now” (1 John 2:9), “walk in the darkness” (1 John 2:11) and “do not know God” (1 John 4:8). John is contrasting two different spheres, one characterized by light and life, the other by darkness and death. What determines in which realm one lives is one’s relationship to God and the community of faith. 1 John 3:14 is parallel to John 5:24 ("he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed over out of the death into the life”) where the exact same terminology is found.

John uses terms like “life,” “death,” “light” and “darkness” metaphorically to contrast two different manners of living; two different kinds of character. Those who love God and His children already live in light and life. Those who do not even now dwell in the realms of darkness and death. Nothing is said of whether one can change the “realm” in which one lives.

What does John mean by “ask for life” in 1 John 5:16?

In 1 John “everlasting life” is what God has promised to true believers (1 John 2:25). Who are these true believers? Those who love God and the brethren have already passed over from the realm of death to that of life (1 John 3:14). God has given those who love Him life that is found only in His Son (1 John 5:11) and those who believe in the name of the Son already have “everlasting life” (1 John 5:13). Indeed, God sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might have life even now (1 John 4:9). When John speaks of life he does not mean the mortal existence all humans have between birth and death, but the “everlasting life” from God that is found only in the Son, a life we can possess and experience in some sense now, though its fullness awaits the Age to Come.

In comparison the one who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) and the one who does not have the Son already lacks life (1 John 5:12). Though one continues to exist, one does not in any sense possess the everlasting life of the Age to Come. Those who have the Son and love the brethren already have “life” (1 John 2:25)(1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13).

John’s epistle begins with the thematic statement about the “Word of life” (1 John 1:1-3), the life of the Father manifested in the historical person of Jesus Christ and now proclaimed as the message of “everlasting life.” In this epistle the term “life” is a way to sum up what God has done for believers including “being in the light” (1 John 1:5), the forgiveness of sins (1 John 1:9-2:2) (1 John 4:10), the granting of everlasting life (1 John 1:2) (1 John 2:25) (1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13) (1 John 5:20), fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7), an anointing (1 John 2:20), love from the Father (1 John 3:1), the status of “children of God” (1 John 3:1-2) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 5:2), the hope of becoming like Him (1 John 3:2-3), the gift of the Spirit (1 John 3:24) (1 John 4:13), being “born of God” (1 John 5:1), and our victory over the world (1 John 5:4-5). John summarizes his message with the statement, “and this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. Compare 1 John 5:11 with 1 John 5:20.

Historical & Literary Context:

John was writing to a congregation (or possibly several small ones) experiencing turmoil caused by doctrinal disputes with former members (hereafter referred to as ‘secessionists’), individuals who had left the church and were teaching heretical doctrines (1 John 2:18-28) (1 John 4:1-6) (1 John 5:6-7). This problem went beyond discouraged or disgruntled individuals who had simply left the church. Some of them were attempting to propagate their false teachings to those still in the assembly (1 John 2:26) (1 John 4:1-3) (2 John 1:7), raising the possibility that some members of John’s congregations would be deceived and also leave the assembly.

In his opening section John lays out the main claims of the secessionists. They claimed to have “fellowship with Jesus” and to walk with Him (1 John 1:6), “to have no sin” (1 John 1:8), and that they “have not sinned” (1 John 1:10). In the same passage John provides some of the details of the controversies in play. To their claim of “fellowship with Jesus” John responds that those walking with Him “love one another” and Jesus' blood “is cleansing us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). By implication the secessionists were failing to love the brethren. As to having no sin, John points out the necessity of confessing sin and thereby receiving forgiveness (1 John 1:9). And as to the assertion they “have not sinned,” John cites this as evidence that His word is not in them (1 John 1:10).

The secessionists boasted that they have come “to know Him” (1 John 2:4). John refutes this with the charge they are “not keeping His commandments,” the logic being that if you know Him you will keep his commandments. They boasted that they are “abiding in him (1 John 2:6). If so, John retorts, they should be “walking in the same manner” as did Jesus. The secessionists emphasized that they are “in the light” yet, as John points out, they hate their brothers and sisters (1 John 2:9). When John speaks of “commandments” he is not thinking of the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law, but of God’s commands to love Him, believe in His Son and to love one another. In other words, the community of faith (1 John 3:23) (1 John 4:21) (1 John 5:2-3). Likewise “walking in the manner Jesus walked” refers above all to following his example of self-sacrificial love for one’s brothers and sisters (1 John 3:16).

Source:
Gospeltoallnations.org
(Please take note that this link is no longer active; But it was active at one time).

Let's keep things simple.

1Jn 2:1-2 My children, I am writing this so that you won't sin. But if you do sin, Jesus Christ always does the right thing, and he will speak to the Father for us. Christ is the sacrifice that takes away our sins and the sins of all the world's people.

You say any sin committed after being saved disqualifies you from salvation. But 1 John 2:1-2 clearly shows that a Christain can sin, or fall into sin, and they will not lose their salvation.

John writes that he is not condoning sin, he is writing so people "don't sin", but he goes on to say, "But if you do sin Jesus will forgive you".

This forgiveness is not so the person can continue to live in sin, no rather so they have a chance to repent, a chance to change.

FutureAndAHope · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Oh, and one more thing: How would the brethren know a person is committing the sin not unto death whereby they would know to pray for them to give them life? What does life mean exactly in 1 John 5? What kind of life are they hoping to impart to this believer by their praying for this one who is committing the sin not unto death? I believe the life that they are hoping to impart to this believer is victory over their sin (Which means eternal life for them). They are praying so that this Christian who is struggling with a particular sin to have eternal life and win over this sin. For Jesus warns in Matthew 5:28-30 that just looking upon a woman in lust is grounds to be cast bodily into hellfire. But in your view: If a person’s future sins are forgiven them, praying for a brother or sister to have life by their committing sin does not make a whole lot of sense. There are many believers today who sin and yet they don’t die right away. So this is why your interpretation does not really add up in light of what is going on in the context of 1 John 5.

Yu are miss-quoting me all over the place. The scripture is stating to the mature Christain, that if we see our brother committing a sin, and it has not lead to their physical death, God has not given up on them, and we are to pray that they be restored to righteousness, to right living, and God will do the restoring.

We can be sure that God has not given up on any Christain who has not died in their sin. We are not to condone the sin, no rather pray for them to come out from it.

Danthemailman · Dec 1, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Thanks for posting but would it not be more clear to list the one and only sin that leads to eternal death. Unbelief. This is sinning unto death.
Blessings

Amen! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother [believer] committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven]. 18 We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (AMPC)

FutureAndAHope · Dec 1, 2021

I really feel you are reading my comments through the wrong lens. Please understand, I am not saying a Christain can live in gross sin, and expect to be forgiven while they continue to live in it. I am saying if a Christain falls into sin, they will not be damned, God will more than often give them a chance to repent.

As an example, A Christain may start out well, then become disgruntled, and move into the old life, God may let them wander for a time, but then call them back to righteousness, that person can still be saved if they return to God and genuinely repent. A sin, or a time of sin does not disqualify them from eternal life if they will repent.

Job 36:7-12 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted. And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction; Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

ozso · Dec 1, 2021

This is something probably most Catholics will agree on, but probably not most Protestants. I'm not sure what the position of the Orthodox Church is.

Original Happy Camper · Dec 1, 2021

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death;

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

iLearn said:
Sin is not to be struggled with. No one can overcome sin by his own strength. Jesus said to learn humility the correct way is by imitating his humility, not to be a dumb doormat, and one needs to carry his cross daily or meaning die to self will on a daily basis.

Nowhere am I suggesting that a believer overcome sin by their own strength. Only a person abiding in the Lord can overcome by His strength and in following the Lord’s good ways. But the reality is that believers can encounter sin and if they do, they need to overcome them. Here are….

Ways to overcome “Sins That Lead Unto Death”
by God's Word and with the help of Jesus:

#1. Remove yourself from sinful environments.

Remove yourself from sinful environments (if possible) and or get rid of things that cause you to sin. In Genesis: Joseph had literally ran away from the temptation of sexual sin (Genesis 39:11-12). One of the commands in the New Testament is: "Flee fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18) (Note: Paul says that what he had written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord - 1 Corinthians 14:37) (KJV). Sometimes this running away is merely a means of escape. God provides a way of escape for us to run to so that we can bear the temptation and get through it. For 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

#2. Pray to God so as not to be tempted.

Pray to God so as not to be tempted. It is part of the Lord’s prayer for you to pray so as not to be tempted into sin (Matthew 6:12). God will guide and protect you if you are serious in praying for this. "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:41). In fact, fasting will help you with this, as well. Being enslaved to sin is a demonic influence. While being enslaves to sin does not mean a Christian is possessed by a demon, we learn that certain demon possessions could not be driven out only by prayer and fasting (Matthew 17:21). So if demon possession at the most intense level can only be healed (by the casting out of the demon) by both prayer and fasting, then it is a sure bet that fasting and praying to overcome sin will also help a believer overcome sin (Which is a demonic influence).

#3. Obey God’s righteous ways.

Obey God’s righteous ways. The more you love God and love others and obey His Word and stay in His Word and pray, the more you will not even have a chance to sin or do the wrong thing. But the more you walk in God's Word by the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of flesh. "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16). "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14). "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

#4. When you are tempted, quote Scripture.

When you are tempted, quote Scripture. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, He quoted Scripture to defeat the devil (Matthew 4:4) (Matthew 4:7) (Matthew 4:10). So when some specific sin is bothering you, find all the verses you can that are victory verses over that particular sin. A good general verse (Especially if you are tempted to look at women in lust if you find yourself in public around a lot of people) is, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” (Psalms 23:1). You can say these verses to yourself silently under your breath (with nobody hearing).

#5. Ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians.

Ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians or Godly Christians to help you to overcome certain sins. The Scriptures say, bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. So seek true fellowship and ask for their help. In 1 John 5, we see Christians praying for a believer who is struggling to overcome a sin (that they are confessing). "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16). A faithful Christian shall ask God to give their fellow Christian life (victory) in overcoming their sin that they are confessing (i.e. sin that is confessed is not a sin that leads unto death).

#6. Hide God’s Word in your heart.

Hide God’s Word in your heart. Memorize Scripture. David said he hid God’s Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." (Psalms 119:11).

#7. Confess of your sins.

Confess of your sins. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Suffer in the Flesh:

1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (Note: Also see verse 2). We should suffer in the flesh by:

Resisting during times of temptation.
Fasting.
Being persecuted for Christ’s sake.

I have written other points with Scripture that need fleshing out a bit more. But hopefully these things I have written will help. Love, peace, and joy be to you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But you must understand that people who may struggle to overcome sin may find that being perfect in every way is far beyond what they are even able to handl

I understand however, loving the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth more than loving sin is how we should really approach this subject.
The power of His Holy Spirit in ones life should not be quenched and letting sin slip by without repenting is just not appropriate. It is just not the Gospel my friend. Holy Spirit filled Christians know sin and are appalled by it. Yes it is hard for us because only the Holy Spirit can deliver true repentance. So let's not grieve Him by making excuses. This is the process of santification.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 1, 2021

I dont know why this thread bothers me so much. I guess it is the twisting of the very powerful scriptural statement " sin unto death" that is at stake here. If there needs to be a list called " sins not unto death" let it be known that they are not sins at all!
Be blessed.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I believe this to be in reference to the Law of Christ (i.e. the Laws of Christ under the New Covenant or New Testament).

See Romans 8:2, Hebrews 7:12, Matthew 27:51.

Please no Sabbath or Old Testament Law of Moses discussion here.
If you don’t agree, start another thread please.

You said:
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In Matthew 5:19: I believe Jesus was referring to the commands He was giving at the sermon on the mount. For that would be the context of His conversation. But of course I know you don’t agree because you are a Sabbatarian Christian. But this is not the place to debate how you think the Law of Moses is still in effect. I don’t want this thread to go down that kind of road or discussion (Thereby derailing this thread). Matthew 5:11-12 could be one possible example of what might be a least command. But again, I believe Christians should focus to obey all of the Lord Jesus’ commands (even the least commands such as these). No believer should think that just because it is a least command that they don’t need to worry about it. Christians should strive to please the Lord Jesus in all things.

You said:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death;

To my knowledge, Paul does not mention sins that do not lead unto death. Paul mentions in context to the Roman Christians what kind of sins he is referring to as sins that lead unto death (See: Romans 1:28-32); And Paul’s letter to the church in Rome is not the only set of Scriptures we have on this topic. If Romans was the only book we had, then that is what we would have to conclude.

You said:
Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

There are things in all of God’s Word that are beneficial to the New Covenant faith even though the Old Law is no longer a binding contract or covenant. While we may not be able to obey certain aspects of the Old Law like before (like offering animal sacrifices by the priesthood, stoning others, etc.) I am sure there is some secondary New Covenant application to these things. For example: The animal sacrifices pointed to the greatest sacrifice of all (Which is the Lord Jesus dying for our sins). Stoning is in regards to those who do not accept Jesus and His words, will be destroyed by the Rock (Who is Jesus Christ). For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

But again, I am not interested in any discussions or debates on how we must keep the Old Law. This thread is not about that.

Anyways, the Bible actually mentions how there is a “sin not unto death” in 1 John 5:16-17. In context of the epistle, I believe this would be confessed sin vs. not confessed sin. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Some have suggested that this in reference to James 5:13-18 whereby a believer who is sick is to be prayed over whereby they can save this sick person from dying and their sins would be forgiven. I have looked at this chapter again more carefully and I am now considering it as a possibility that the sin unto death could be physical but we have to realize that any sin that leads to physical death involves the spiritual state of the individual being condemned (or with them abiding in spiritual death). So the sin unto death (if indeed physical) could be unforgivable sins like apostasy (rejection of Jesus after one has the Spirit, or speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit after being a believer) and may even include the gnostic belief of those who denied sins existence. These types who committed this kind of sin unto death could be sick and dying (sin unto death) and they are doing so because they abide in spiritual death. Granted, God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, but only God knows who will repent and who will not repent. For the one who says they hate their brother has no eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). So this believer would be abiding in spiritual death if they were sick and dying and refusing to confess of their sins to the Lord over their hatred towards their brother or sister in Christ. Could this also be a sin unto death of which we are not to pray for them over? Maybe we could not reverse the course of their life ending by praying for them, but I would like to believe we should always pray for people’s hearts to always change (if that sin is not an unforgivable one).

So what about Matthew 4:4? Shall we not live by every word of God? Yes. I believe that. I believe the word live in Matthew 4:4 here has a double meaning.

#1. We shall live by the Word of God in the sense living our every day lives by the Word of God. We put into action what God’s Word says. We live out (obey) the Word of God.

#2. We will live eternally by God’s words.

But I also see that there are some things in Gods words that are not applicable to us but to certain individuals. For example: God told Noah to build an ark, and God is not commanding us to build an ark. This is why I believe we do not obey the laws given to Israel. For the entirety of the Old Law was to be followed literally for Israel at one point in time, and they are not to be followed all literally for the church.

So how can I live by (obey) the least commands that do not bring eternal life or deal with eternal life? How can I live (end result) in the second sense by them?

By being blessed by God to physically live in this life. For we read in Deuteronomy 8 about how one’s offspring would be multiplied. This is a physical blessing. So this is how I would take it in how we could live by every Word of God with there being least commands or sins that do not lead unto death. For me, the biggest case for sins not unto spiritual death is Matthew 5:22. If you were to read the AMP translation, you would see that there are two sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, and one sin contrasted as being punishable in hellfire. Why would Jesus say this if the first two sins also lead to hellfire, too? It makes no sense.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I dont know why this thread bothers me so much. I guess it is the twisting of the very powerful scriptural statement " sin unto death" that is at stake here. If there needs to be a list called " sins not unto death" let it be known that they are not sins at all!
Be blessed.

What do you make of 1 John 5:16-17?
Check out Matthew 5:22 in the AMP translation. What do you make of Jesus saying that there are two sins punishable in earthly courts vs. a sin that is punishable in hellfire? Why mention sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts if they also lead to hellfire? It makes no sense.
There are many laws even in our own city that you may not be aware of and if you broke them (without intending to break them), would that not be a sin? See Romans 13.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I understand however, loving the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth more than loving sin is how we should really approach this subject.

Okay. Not sure how you got this kind of thinking by what I wrote. Again…. Not encouraging you or anyone to disobey even the least commands or to jump right out and disobey any command that the Bible suggests or implies is a sin not unto death. I am not encouraging anyone to test the waters and to break any of God’s commands. That’s not what I am saying. All I am saying is that the Bible itself appears to teach certain transgressions which do not appear to have the same degree of punishment. We know this even with Sodom and Gomorrah. That city was destroyed because their sin was exceptionally really bad. Other cities were not destroyed by fire from above but that is because their sins were really great that deserved a different degree of punishment. Think. The person who accidentally killed somebody is still guilty in taking part in the taking of the life of another (even if they did not intend to take their life). By their hands, they killed the other person. So the Law made a way to protect this kind of person to escape to a city of refuge (Whereby they would not be killed for killing another accidentally).

You said:
The power of His Holy Spirit in ones life should not be quenched and letting sin slip by without repenting is just not appropriate. It is just not the Gospel my friend. Holy Spirit filled Christians know sin and are appalled by it. Yes it is hard for us because only the Holy Spirit can deliver true repentance. So let's not grieve Him by making excuses. This is the process of santification.

Again, I am not telling Christians to not repent or seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus if they are convicted of a sin that they should repent of by the Spirit. I am just saying that there are things in believer’s lives that they may not always going to catch or see that the Bible does not always mention. Are we truly loving all our neighbors like we should be? Are we telling them all about Jesus? We should be. It is in fact a way of loving our neighbor is to see them saved. This is why we need grace as we do work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Could we be condemned by not loving enough? Surely we can. I am not saying that. God makes the final decision in how we lived for Him and if He finds us worthy or not. But most Christians I talk with think they can commit grievous sin and still be saved while doing so. They bring up the excuse that no person can live perfectly and thus… this is why they justify sin under God’s grace. But I don’t believe God requires us to be perfect in every way to be saved. Was Samson perfect before he died? Was Solomon perfect his whole life? The point here is having a right heart attitude towards God and ending well. We of course will never justify any sin. I am not going to tell you or other believers to go out and test the waters on what I believe is a non-death sin. By no means. I would forbid you and others to do so. We should obey the Lord in all things. But we have to realize that God did not destroy all cities like Sodom. Why? They were sinful, too. Why? Because it was the degree of sin. Think.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I dont know why this thread bothers me so much. I guess it is the twisting of the very powerful scriptural statement " sin unto death" that is at stake here. If there needs to be a list called " sins not unto death" let it be known that they are not sins at all!
Be blessed.

See post #27.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I dont know why this thread bothers me so much. I guess it is the twisting of the very powerful scriptural statement " sin unto death" that is at stake here. If there needs to be a list called " sins not unto death" let it be known that they are not sins at all!
Be blessed.

Maria. Do you obey God perfectly? Yes, or no? If you don’t, then your toast. Can we obey those sins that the Bible condemns with warnings of hellfire and condemnation attached? Yes, I believe we can. But did not Peter even stumble and deny the Lord? Did not even Paul make a mistake in going back to the Old Law in Acts of the Apostles 21? So my point here is that we need grace to help us to obey, and overcome in this life. Sure, we may stumble, and we must confess of our sins, but the Lord our God is not unreasonable whereby He ties impossible demands upon us, either. Remember, his yoke is easy and his burden is light. This again is not a license to sin by any means. Please do not think that is what I am suggesting here. I am merely pointing out a truth in the Bible. If you believe these verses I presented say something else I would be eternally grateful to you or another explaining them (using the context and or cross references to do so of course).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I really feel you are reading my comments through the wrong lens. Please understand, I am not saying a Christain can live in gross sin, and expect to be forgiven while they continue to live in it. I am saying if a Christain falls into sin, they will not be damned, God will more than often give them a chance to repent.

As an example, A Christain may start out well, then become disgruntled, and move into the old life, God may let them wander for a time, but then call them back to righteousness, that person can still be saved if they return to God and genuinely repent. A sin, or a time of sin does not disqualify them from eternal life if they will repent.

In some instances (not always), I believe a Christian can go prodigal into a life of sin and later be forgiven of their sin by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and by coming back to the faith in being more serious in following Jesus again. But I believe that while they are prodigal and in sin, they are not saved and they are abiding in spiritual death. For in Luke 15: When the prodigal son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that he was “dead” and he is “alive again.” This of course was speaking in spiritual terms. For the son did not die physically. The son was dead spiritually when he was living it up with prostitutes. But when he came back home and sought forgiveness of his sins, he was alive again spiritually.

This is why future sins is not forgiven for a believer. Only past sins are forgiven.
For if future sin was forgiven a believer, then they could live however they please and still be saved. So I am not buying the whole future sin forgiven theology.

You said:
Job 36:7-12 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted. And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction; Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

We should obey the Lord in everything (even what the Bible appears to be as least commands or non-death sins). I believe God blesses us eternally and in this life for our obedience unto the Lord. Nowhere am I encouraging any believer to test the waters in breaking what looks like a non-death sin. But again, we have to face the truth or reality of various verses, too. Many will say it is impossible to be perfect before God and that such a goal could never be reached. They say you have to be perfect or you will be condemned. They offer of course an alternative way of committing grievous sin while under God’s grace, though.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I dont know why this thread bothers me so much. I guess it is the twisting of the very powerful scriptural statement " sin unto death" that is at stake here. If there needs to be a list called " sins not unto death" let it be known that they are not sins at all!
Be blessed.

There are 400 some commands in the New Testament that were given to us by Jesus and His followers as a part of the New Covenant. I cannot honestly say most Christians are even aware of these commands (let alone are they obeying them by any means).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 1, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I really feel you are reading my comments through the wrong lens. Please understand, I am not saying a Christain can live in gross sin, and expect to be forgiven while they continue to live in it. I am saying if a Christain falls into sin, they will not be damned, God will more than often give them a chance to repent.

As an example, A Christain may start out well, then become disgruntled, and move into the old life, God may let them wander for a time, but then call them back to righteousness, that person can still be saved if they return to God and genuinely repent. A sin, or a time of sin does not disqualify them from eternal life if they will repent.

Job 36:7-12 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted. And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction; Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

Anyways, I wanted to thank you for bringing up your view on 1 John 5:16-17. While I did not initially agree, I did re-read James 5:13-18 this morning and God is talking to my heart about it in regards to how that does appear to tie in nicely with 1 John 5:16-17. So I am reconsidering my position a bit. Granted, I am not in agreement that future sin is forgiven a believer still. That is definitely off the table. But I am considering that 1 John 5:16-17 is dealing with believers having some kind of sickness on account of their sins, and that the sin unto death (while it seems like a sickness unto physical death due to the kind of sin they are committing), I believe sin also has a spiritual side effect, too. If one does not repent or seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, I believe they are abiding in spiritual death regardless if they claim to believe in Jesus as their Savior.

Now, if a believer later rejects Jesus as their Savior (apostasy) or spoke bad words against the Holy Spirit after being a believer, I also believe that praying for such individuals who may have fallen into sickness would be pointless (Because the Bible appears to teach that these sins are unforgivable). But to pray for a person who has a false gnostic belief in that they think sin is an illusion or that they can sin and still be saved, we may not be encourage to pray for them to physically live because they may be under a sin unto death, but I believe that should pray for them to repent if they are a facing a sickness unto death (due to their sin). For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

FutureAndAHope · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Now, if a believer later rejects Jesus as their Savior (apostasy) or spoke bad words against the Holy Spirit after being a believer, I also believe that praying for such individuals who may have fallen into sickness would be pointless (Because the Bible appears to teach that these sins are unforgivable). But to pray for a person who has a false gnostic belief in that they think sin is an illusion or that they can sin and still be saved, we may not be encourage to pray for them to physically live because they may be under a sin unto death, but I believe that should pray for them to repent if they are a facing a sickness unto death (due to their sin). For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This is just so wrong. Neither of these things biblically disqualify a believer from salvation. Apostacy, Hebrew 6, says:

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But we see the cross covers a lifetime of failures and sins. So it is impossible to crucify again Christ while one lives. The person listed here is someone who has wandered from the truth, and eventually died in their sins.

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

As for speaking a bad word against the Holy Ghost, that is not unpardonable either. The unpardonable sin is a state of heart when no matter the power of the miracle, or sign, the person ignores the message of the cross. The Pharisees were condemned for not believing in Jesus' miracles, calling him a devil. It was a blasphemy against Gods' signs to them.

eleos1954 · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Sins Not Unto Death:

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to trivialize sin. I believe after we are saved by God's grace that we must live holy as a part of God's plan of salvation. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Believers cannot justify sin that leads to spiritual death, condemnation, or hellfire. For I believe we should obey the Lord in all things. For I want to stress that there are grievous sins (or death sins) like murder, hate, adultery, lying, etc. that can lead even a believer to being condemned in the Lake of Fire if such sins are not repented of (i.e. if these sins are not confessed or forsaken).
Anyways,...

Here is my biblical case for sins that do not lead unto death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them (so as to overcome them), the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Paul ignores the warnings of the Spirit and Psalms 19:12.
Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. The Least of These Commands in Matthew 5:19.
We know that 1 John 5:16-17 declares that there is a sin not unto death. So if this is the case, we should expect to see other testimonies of this kind of thing in God's Word.

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19).

This was said by the Lord Jesus at the sermon on the mount. Jesus was not referring to the 613 Torah laws but He was referring to the New Commands He was giving at the sermon on the mount, etc.; Granted, I am not encouraging anyone to break the Lord's commands (even the commands that do not appear to be a major violation of loving God and others), but our Lord's words have to still hold true in Matthew 5:19. Meaning, there are going to be believers who are in the Kingdom and they taught others that they could break the least of Jesus' commandments. How can they be in the kingdom?

Anyways, what could be a possible least command that Jesus is referring to? Well, one possible example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12. For it does not seem like a major violation of loving God and others if we fail to obey this instruction.

#5. Punishment of sins in earthly courts vs. a sin that leads to hellfire (Matthew 5:22). Jesus described to us the difference between death-sins vs. non-death sins in Matthew 5:22.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).

The words in blue above are “non-death sins” because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a “death sin” because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.

#6. Accidental manslaughter and being able to flee to cities of refuge (Deuteronomy 19:1-13); Contrast this with intentional murder which results in capital punishment (See: Deuteronomy 19:21, Numbers 35:31).

#7. Adam’s Inherited Sin (Involving babies that die).
I believe Adam’s Inherited Sin Leads all mankind to physically die. Adam’s sin also opened the door for all men and women to fall into spiritual death and condemnation. But we know according to Scripture and the goodness of God that if a baby dies in this world, they are saved. For King David knew that he would see his unborn child again (2 Samuel 12:23), and Jesus says that children are of the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:16). So how are they saved if Adam brought death? Well, Jesus reversed the curse of spiritual death involving the sin of Adam. The Promised Messiah was the promise of God of salvation to men. So if a baby dies, they will be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus died for our sins because God loves us. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But the point here is that if babies are saved, and they are doomed to die physically at some point in their life (either as a baby or an adult) by Adam’s sin, we should realize that the stain of spiritual death from Adam did not take hold onto the lives of babies because of the Messiah. So the sin of Adam passing down spiritual death does not harm a baby. It’s a sin not unto death. Now, the fallen nature was passed down, and thus when that baby grows up, they will sin when they are faced with the knowledge of good and evil. But this is why Jesus came. To set the captives free from sin and death. For Jesus not only came to forgive our sins, but He came to give us a new heart, and new desires to live a new life in Him. A life that is not enslaved to grievous sin that brings spiritual death. Side Note: Now, did spiritual death take hold upon Adam? I believe it did because God said that he would die in the day he would eat of the tree (he was commanded to not eat). Did Adam drop dead physically when he ate of the wrong tree? Surely not. So this means Adam died spiritually. Also, I believe the promise of the Messiah Jesus reversed the curse of Adam. For Jesus took on our sins in the Garden and died in our place for our sins. This was spiritual. So if Jesus never died for our sins, all of mankind would be doomed spiritually (including babies that die). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus deserves all the glory.

The wages of sin is death. We all sin ... we all deserve death. Christ paid our sin debt (AMEN!) Sin is sin and death is death. The consequences of sin (experienced) may be more severe than others .... but it's all sin. (ie experiencing murder is much more severe than someone lying) .... but they are both sin.

We are born separated from God ... spiritually and physically.

Through Christ we receive ever lasting life .... spiritually and physically ... and when His plan has been fully executed then this becomes the reality.

Jesus deserves all the glory.

ABSOLUTELY AND AMEN !!!

Maria Billingsley · Dec 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
There are 400 some commands in the New Testament that were given to us by Jesus and His followers as a part of the New Covenant. I cannot honestly say most Christians are even aware of these commands (let alone are they obeying them by any means).

I fear the Holy spirit is not working in you.
I will pray that truth be your guild.

Sins Not Unto Death

Just me

Just me

Well-Known Member

Just me

✦

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Just me

God is Love

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency