Sinners are gonna go to Hell!

AngelusSax · Jan 15, 2005

Which person in the New Testament knowingly sinned while they were a Christian?

Which person in the New Testament, other than Jesus of course, does it say led a perfectly sinless life after they accepted and followed Christ?

I'm sure a feat such as that would have been recorded at least once.

himstar · Jan 19, 2005

desi said:
How come most churches don't teach about sinners going to Hell anymore? It seems they encourage us to be nice to others, shake hands, put money in the basket, and finally offer a joke or amusing anecdote before sending us on our way... Is there a reason scaring people of Hell has fallen out of fashion, and is it correlated to emptier pews, rampant divorce, and open homosexuality among self professed Christians?

One man said that Good News is too weak today. So even demons can be member of some church. And even say amen after some sermon.
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. Jas.2:19

In my church we still preach about sin and God’s punishment.

angeleyes21 · Jan 19, 2005

desi said:
How come most churches don't teach about sinners going to Hell anymore? It seems they encourage us to be nice to others, shake hands, put money in the basket, and finally offer a joke or amusing anecdote before sending us on our way... Is there a reason scaring people of Hell has fallen out of fashion, and is it correlated to emptier pews, rampant divorce, and open homosexuality among self professed Christians?

This is a very confusing issue. I have thought the same thing myself. I never quite understood why pastors quit teaching that sinners go to hell and that they need to Lord in order to be saved. In my personal opinion I have come up with an idea about why this is. I believe that we have come to a point in time where pastors are afraid to upset their congregations. The "church" wants to only hear what they want to hear and pastors are going with this. That is why there is more divorce, more homosexuality, more homicides, more sin in this world. We are letting down our guard and are afraid to tell someone about the consequences of a sin filled life. But unfortunately, if we decide not to tell others about the eternal consequences of a life without Christ and full of sin, we are gonna have their blood on our hands at the day of judgement because the bible says we are gonna be judged for every idle thought or deed. When we don't tell someone the truth of the word, then we are just as bad as someone who is sinning. God puts certain people along our paths daily who we may be the last and only christian witnesses that they will see and because we are afraid to say something, they are gonna spend eternity in hell if they died.
I hope I helped answer your question.

love ya in Christ
jennifer nicole

Highland Watchman · Jan 19, 2005

... I am seriously wondering if I should say something in here, or to just let this dead horse lie on the ground. By the heatedness that this discussion has caused on both sides, this issue appears to be one that has much confusion and much things to be said on both sides.

I agree with the point that angeleyes21 brought up in that a lot of the times, the pastor is afraid of offending members of their congregations. And why wouldn't they be? Just a little while ago, the United Church in Canada decided to unionize... yes, you did just read that correctly. Pastors are treated so poorly and their congregations are often run by spiritual infants to the point where they DO fear for their job security... Also considering that the average lifespan of a Canadian pastor before he is burned out, not just out of ministry, but sometimes out of the faith as well, is 5 years... That is definitely a sobering thought to think about.

I would also point out that it is not because certain sins are not shouted about that our culture has gone to the dogs. Rather, there are more significant factors at play here... Even if the church were to start shouting brimstone against certain evils, it must also pay attention to other evils as well... For as sinful as sexual immorality in all of its forms may be, it is only really one area of sin, and further consequences of a world that won't listen to us anyway... I say this not because I have given up on the world. If that were the case, I would not be a fool-hardy young man who has a calling burning so strongly in my bones it's undeniable... But rather, I am saying this as an actuality... Christians are called to be salt - which is a minimal ingredient at best... IT may almost be better for Christianity that these events are happening in our world that are testing us to our very roots...

I found an earlier comment that demons attend church also very interesting... and amusing... I wonder which churches they would frequent... If that is the case, which I wouldn't doubt... as there are hundreds who attend church every week but do not understand the Gospel of the Kingdom... in fact, I doubt they have even heard it... But what is our responsibility? I would say it is to preach the whole truth, and to LIVE in such a way that those who see may proclaim us as true witnesses.

What urks me is Christians who think that simply bashing one or two choice verses down people's throats in order to guilt them into saying some prayer, or treat them like projects, then they live in such a way that denies the very Jesus that they claim to be proclaiming... The problem isn't necessarily in the lack of preaching, as there is lots of that. The problem is in the lack of living, and a general lack of integrity...

We have identified some problems in this thread... the problems of specific sins, namely that of D&R-M (divorce and remarriage), Homosexuality, and weak witness of the church in the world. Since we have named at least part of the problem (or maybe just a symptom of a deeper issue, that is the real problem, and attacking these would only put a bandaid on a gaping wound), how can we go about solving it?

One suggestion is to preach hellfire and damnation, and to insist that anyone who breaks the law of God is to be condemned... Okay... It does follow some scriptural principles... Now, in order to prevent anyone from breaking these laws, let's put hedge rules around each of these... In order to keep people from lusting after one another, we will make pink and blue sidewalks... men are only allowed on the blue, and women are only allowed walking on the pink. Among our youth, we will enforce a 9:00 pm curfew, where they will have to appear for inspection at our residential schools, because the home is too broken to do anything about it. In order to prevent alcoholic consumption, we will provide only water or milk, as everything else can ferment if given the right conditions, and we definitely do not want that... And, in order to not break the rules to honour the Lord's Day, we will make it that all power is to be turned off at precisely 10:30 every Saturday evening, except for radios, which will be battery powered, and Church programs will be the only stuff made available. And, because we aren't allowed to work, we can only allow 1000 steps on the Lord's day. Anything more would be work...

((I'll add more later... gotta run))

goldentoejam · Jan 20, 2005

Highland Watchman said:
... I am seriously wondering if I should say something in here, or to just let this dead horse lie on the ground. By the heatedness that this discussion has caused on both sides, this issue appears to be one that has much confusion and much things to be said on both sides.

I agree with the point that angeleyes21 brought up in that a lot of the times, the pastor is afraid of offending members of their congregations. And why wouldn't they be? Just a little while ago, the United Church in Canada decided to unionize... yes, you did just read that correctly. Pastors are treated so poorly and their congregations are often run by spiritual infants to the point where they DO fear for their job security... Also considering that the average lifespan of a Canadian pastor before he is burned out, not just out of ministry, but sometimes out of the faith as well, is 5 years... That is definitely a sobering thought to think about.

I would also point out that it is not because certain sins are not shouted about that our culture has gone to the dogs. Rather, there are more significant factors at play here... Even if the church were to start shouting brimstone against certain evils, it must also pay attention to other evils as well... For as sinful as sexual immorality in all of its forms may be, it is only really one area of sin, and further consequences of a world that won't listen to us anyway... I say this not because I have given up on the world. If that were the case, I would not be a fool-hardy young man who has a calling burning so strongly in my bones it's undeniable... But rather, I am saying this as an actuality... Christians are called to be salt - which is a minimal ingredient at best... IT may almost be better for Christianity that these events are happening in our world that are testing us to our very roots...

I found an earlier comment that demons attend church also very interesting... and amusing... I wonder which churches they would frequent... If that is the case, which I wouldn't doubt... as there are hundreds who attend church every week but do not understand the Gospel of the Kingdom... in fact, I doubt they have even heard it... But what is our responsibility? I would say it is to preach the whole truth, and to LIVE in such a way that those who see may proclaim us as true witnesses.

What urks me is Christians who think that simply bashing one or two choice verses down people's throats in order to guilt them into saying some prayer, or treat them like projects, then they live in such a way that denies the very Jesus that they claim to be proclaiming... The problem isn't necessarily in the lack of preaching, as there is lots of that. The problem is in the lack of living, and a general lack of integrity...

We have identified some problems in this thread... the problems of specific sins, namely that of D&R-M (divorce and remarriage), Homosexuality, and weak witness of the church in the world. Since we have named at least part of the problem (or maybe just a symptom of a deeper issue, that is the real problem, and attacking these would only put a bandaid on a gaping wound), how can we go about solving it?

One suggestion is to preach hellfire and damnation, and to insist that anyone who breaks the law of God is to be condemned... Okay... It does follow some scriptural principles... Now, in order to prevent anyone from breaking these laws, let's put hedge rules around each of these... In order to keep people from lusting after one another, we will make pink and blue sidewalks... men are only allowed on the blue, and women are only allowed walking on the pink. Among our youth, we will enforce a 9:00 pm curfew, where they will have to appear for inspection at our residential schools, because the home is too broken to do anything about it. In order to prevent alcoholic consumption, we will provide only water or milk, as everything else can ferment if given the right conditions, and we definitely do not want that... And, in order to not break the rules to honour the Lord's Day, we will make it that all power is to be turned off at precisely 10:30 every Saturday evening, except for radios, which will be battery powered, and Church programs will be the only stuff made available. And, because we aren't allowed to work, we can only allow 1000 steps on the Lord's day. Anything more would be work...

((I'll add more later... gotta run))

THANK YOU MR. WATCHMAN! ! ! Your words were sobering, yet true, and should be a resounding reminder to all of us that we need, instead of treating the symptom, to stifle the problem. I'll certainly be praying for the Canadian faith...I didn't know about the Union. YIKES. Well, gotta go but God Bless!

Highland Watchman · Jan 28, 2005

Highland Watchman said:
We have identified some problems in this thread... the problems of specific sins, namely that of D&R-M (divorce and remarriage), Homosexuality, and weak witness of the church in the world. Since we have named at least part of the problem (or maybe just a symptom of a deeper issue, that is the real problem, and attacking these would only put a bandaid on a gaping wound), how can we go about solving it?

One suggestion is to preach hellfire and damnation, and to insist that anyone who breaks the law of God is to be condemned... Okay... It does follow some scriptural principles... Now, in order to prevent anyone from breaking these laws, let's put hedge rules around each of these... In order to keep people from lusting after one another, we will make pink and blue sidewalks... men are only allowed on the blue, and women are only allowed walking on the pink. Among our youth, we will enforce a 9:00 pm curfew, where they will have to appear for inspection at our residential schools, because the home is too broken to do anything about it. In order to prevent alcoholic consumption, we will provide only water or milk, as everything else can ferment if given the right conditions, and we definitely do not want that... And, in order to not break the rules to honour the Lord's Day, we will make it that all power is to be turned off at precisely 10:30 every Saturday evening, except for radios, which will be battery powered, and Church programs will be the only stuff made available. And, because we aren't allowed to work, we can only allow 1000 steps on the Lord's day. Anything more would be work...

((I'll add more later... gotta run))

((Now, after my rather long haiatus, the continuation of this saga... great... ))

A second option seems to be the all-grace, hyper-seeker sensitive route, where the truth is watered down to such a point that it seems there is nothing else but water, and the only things that are mentioned or talked about are the things that will not offend anybody, and will only go as deep as a mud puddle in the Sahara desert. The responsibility of the believer is not mentioned at all, and neither is sin. Grace becomes so cheap that it's almost meaningless. the lives of believers is really no different from those outside the church... and the pastor gets to keep his job, because certain powerful people in the church are not offended by anything that he happens to say. While we're at it, we should provide condoms in the washrooms, because people are going to have sex anyway, no matter what we do...

Hopefully, we can see the third option, which is a more balanced option between the morally depraved and the over-legalistic, where the truth is boldly declared from the pulpit (which is not the pure fire and brimstone, or the cheap grace, but the whole truth of a faith and lifestyle that is truly vibrant and reverant before God), without any fears on the pastor's part that he is about to lose his job or be sued because he happened to say something that offended someone... Where Christians grow into people who live in such a way that it DOES draw attention from those around them, and who count the cost of what it means to live lives that truly follow after Christ...

If the church is in a very racist area, that could mean embracing and serving other churches that are of other racial groups, following the commandment to love one another. If the church is in a richer part of town and there is a poor, inner-city church nearby, it would mean helping that other church in their ministry and showing that not all rich people are selfish and tight-fisted... and if the poor church suddenly found a unique ministry (such like Brooklyn Tabernacle has), then it will bless so many... and if the people of God would but return to prayer... turn off the TV, even though it is playing "the big game"... If the generations would learn to listen to one another and stop ignoring or disrespecting one another... If people of different denominations would look to one another without pointing their swords at each other's throats, and embrace one another, realizing that we are all part of the body of Christ... If the church would support their students financially, then they would not be left on their own, and those students would further bless the ministry of that church... If only some of these changes were to happen, then we would be on the road to recovery and Revival. Maranatha. Come, Lord Jesus!!

[/end rant]

clonenomore · Jan 28, 2005

I know that I said that I wasn't going to post on this topic again, but I feel led to say this.

Highland Watchman is right -- we can't water down the message. As I said before, sin is sin and it is evil. We can't condone sin. But we do have to get the sinner to listen to the message before we can do any good.

I don't see cause and effect between the changing preaching styles and the increase in certain sins. I do see cause and effect in beating people over the head with condemnation and people leaving the church and turning their backs on Jesus. I firmly believe that we have a different generation to reach -- and it will take a different style of delivering the same message. The message is that Jesus loves us, He died for us, and He wants us to repent to be saved.

I was one of those that had turned his back on Jesus. I had turned away because of "religion". I was tired of getting beaten up with theology. It took someone saying to me, "Jesus loves you, and I do to" to bring me back on the path that God had laid out for me. I know now that I was headed to hell, but that person never mentioned hell at that time. He said, "I love you". That's powerful when you expect condemnation! It was after he had my attention that he talked about the Gospel -- but I was ready to listen at that time. That's what I have been trying to say.

ZiSunka · Jan 28, 2005

How come most churches don't teach about sinners going to Hell anymore?

1. Unsaved people think Hell is a joke.
2. In the early to mid 1900's, Hell was the only thing that preachers ever talked or wrote about and folks just got burned out hearing about it.
3. The people who still go to church tend to be the saved folks, so the preacher would just be wasting breath trying to get them to repent or go to hell. Unsaved people don't go to church. They either don't want to, or they experience "church" on TV. They don't like church because Christians undergo a severe personality change when they know they are around unsaved folks, and the unsaved know it is phoney. Trust me, after a Christian leaves the room, they all talk about how phoney that person was, not to be mean, but because we are phoney around the unsaved. It's like we think we have to be perfect and sweet and it comes off as self-righteous and saccharine.
4. Because we don't care about the unsaved as much as we care about numbers, and God doesn't save people so we can brag about how many people we got saved. If we did care, we would find ways to reach the lost that don't have anything to do with yelling or making converts from other denominations.

clonenomore · Jan 28, 2005

lambslove said:
1. Unsaved people think Hell is a joke.
2. In the early to mid 1900's, Hell was the only thing that preachers ever talked or wrote about and folks just got burned out hearing about it.
3. The people who still go to church tend to be the saved folks, so the preacher would just be wasting breath trying to get them to repent or go to hell. Unsaved people don't go to church. They either don't want to, or they experience "church" on TV. They don't like church because Christians undergo a severe personality change when they know they are around unsaved folks, and the unsaved know it is phoney. Trust me, after a Christian leaves the room, they all talk about how phoney that person was, not to be mean, but because we are phoney around the unsaved. It's like we think we have to be perfect and sweet and it comes off as self-righteous and saccharine.
4. Because we don't care about the unsaved as much as we care about numbers, and God doesn't save people so we can brag about how many people we got saved. If we did care, we would find ways to reach the lost that don't have anything to do with yelling or making converts from other denominations.

Well said. I agree with all of these, but #4 really strikes me. You are right, we shouldn't raid sheep from another pasture, we need to go out and get wild sheep. Too often, we think of church as a numbers game...And that shames me.

Abbadon · Jan 28, 2005

I disagree.

Eventually the "saved" assumed they are not sinners (not true, all are sinners) and the "unsaved" don't go to church because the preacher will only pat the persons there on the head and say "don't worry, you're going to heaven." Unless the person there is wearing a black t-shirt and jeans to church, has long hair, and facial piercings. I've seen this happen too often.

About being "phoney", I've found people being phoney in church, who will go on and on about being saved, and not drinking (which isn't a sin, getting wasted is) or giving into lust, but outside of church, BAM! they're drunk and going after anything in skirt (not that its a bad thing to thank God for doing a job well done). I realize I'm a sinner, and that I'm no more "saved" or "unsaved" than someone as "evil" as Osama bin Laden or as "good" as the Pope (I'm protestant, but I like the current Pope, even if I don't agree completely).

Why act phoney outside of church either? That's not what we're supposed to do. We don't have to shove our faith down people's thoats, or act like it's the "perfect solution," but show that it works for us, and that it's fun. This usually give people a better view of Christianity than just a televangelist.

ZiSunka · Jan 28, 2005

I think the best way I have found to talk to people about having faith in God is to tell them that I became a Christian because it promised me direct access to God, and then delivered on that promise. They'll often ask me how I can know I have access to God, then I can walk them down the Romans Road.

kwanseemun · Jan 28, 2005

first of all, i must say that when i was going around seeing what discussions were going on, just the title of this one kinda threw me off....i know non christians aren't allowed to post in these christian only forums, but if they just see the title....don't you think they might be thinking 'hmm thanks for telling me i'm gonna go to hell and you're so good you're going to heaven' now i'm not saying that you're trying to say that, but it just kinda sounds like it from the title...and a lot of people will interpret it the wrong way. i personally believe we need to think about what is gonna happen to us after we die, where are we gonna go, but i also don't think scaring them is the key. saying that makes it seem like we're saying we're better than them...and we're all equal

Highland Watchman · Jan 28, 2005

clonenomore said:
Well said. I agree with all of these, but #4 really strikes me. You are right, we shouldn't raid sheep from another pasture, we need to go out and get wild sheep. Too often, we think of church as a numbers game...And that shames me.

Or, perhaps even better than "raiding sheep" and the numbers game, help to promote the ministry of others in ministry around you... like volunteering your church services to another church that may have those needs... no strings attached, except to be a friend, and a brother/sister in arms.

And I agree. Very well said, LambsLove, and Clonenomore, and Abbaddon. It seems we are all agreeing that a principle problem is a lack of integrity... the lack of living out the truth, and the seeming two-faced-ness that strikes me as closer to the "religious experts" of Jesus' time who were the target of his harshest rebukes than his disciples, who may have been just as dense... I kind of like what Francis of Assissi said... "Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary... use words." I keep that reminder near me constantly...

ZiSunka · Jan 28, 2005

If half of us really lived the way Christ lived, the sinners would be flocking to us the way they flocked to Jesus.

Jesusfan4ever · Jan 28, 2005

The best thing you can do to lead someone to the Lord is share your testimony with them of what God's done for you. Tell them how He saved you.
Jesusfan4ever
............................................................................................................

Revelations 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony: they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

goldentoejam · Jan 28, 2005

I second that motion Jesusfan4ever.

benedictine · Jan 29, 2005

Abbadon said:
I disagree.

Eventually the "saved" assumed they are not sinners (not true, all are sinners) and the "unsaved" don't go to church because the preacher will only pat the persons there on the head and say "don't worry, you're going to heaven." Unless the person there is wearing a black t-shirt and jeans to church, has long hair, and facial piercings. I've seen this happen too often.

About being "phoney", I've found people being phoney in church, who will go on and on about being saved, and not drinking (which isn't a sin, getting wasted is) or giving into lust, but outside of church, BAM! they're drunk and going after anything in skirt (not that its a bad thing to thank God for doing a job well done). I realize I'm a sinner, and that I'm no more "saved" or "unsaved" than someone as "evil" as Osama bin Laden or as "good" as the Pope (I'm protestant, but I like the current Pope, even if I don't agree completely).

Why act phoney outside of church either? That's not what we're supposed to do. We don't have to shove our faith down people's thoats, or act like it's the "perfect solution," but show that it works for us, and that it's fun. This usually give people a better view of Christianity than just a televangelist.

Abbadon makes some good points. I'm probably going to echo him in a bit.

Jesusfan4ever said:
The best thing you can do to lead someone to the Lord is share your testimony with them of what God's done for you. Tell them how He saved you.
Jesusfan4ever

Now, I disagree. That's part of what Abbadon was talking about when he referenced shoving religion down people's throats. I prefer ther way of Sant Francis of Assisi. Father Francis and two of his brothers were going to a town, and one of them weanted a way to teach the residents of this small italian town about the Christian/Catholic faith.

St. Francis told them to simply raise the hoods on their robes, and cross their arms in the ancient monastic style, and walk through the town.

This is what I do, albiet I don't wear a robe except on Sunday mornings. Witnessing by your actions is the best way to show others the real christianity. Show them the Christian faith rather than just preaching it. Instead of getting up on a park bench and yelling aloud from the gospel, sit there, and if someone asks you what you're reading, tell them.

On the same not, take your Bible to school. I have to read for the first 10 minutes of three classes. This is what I read. I pray before I eat, and I pray at other times. If someone asks you what you're are doing, tell them.

Also, show them that Christians help without expecting anything in return, and wiothout expecting to preach the gospel. Don't preach it, live out the gospel. I have heard stories of Christians in Southeast asia giving out aide packages, and a Bible. There is nothing wrong wtih this, but there are also reports of Christians denying aide to those who will not take the Bible. This is WRONG. This turns them not into Christians, but into zealots. Zealots are not a good thing.

pax Dominious vobiscum, Benedictine.

AngelusSax · Jan 29, 2005

Show them the Christian faith rather than just preaching it.

I find that words are dead without actions, but actions without words will do little good. To combine the two (preferrably, actions first, opening the doorway to a little preaching, if it can be called that), is best, I think.

To make a very short example:

You help someone. They ask why you bothered. You say "It is what I am. I am a Christian. I help."

I know it's a glossed-over short example, but... it's the best I can do right now. Yes, actions are great, but words should not be forsaken either.

I have a feeling that your entire post was getting to that point, but I just felt the need to say it this way.

benedictine · Jan 30, 2005

Yes, that's essintially what I was saying. If someone asks me if I'm reading the Bible, and they have, I say yes. Then if they keep talking about it, I keep talking, and have a theological discussion.

ZiSunka · Jan 31, 2005

St. Francis told them to simply raise the hoods on their robes, and cross their arms in the ancient monastic style, and walk through the town.

Might have worked in 1200's but in this day and age, if you wore a robe and hood, people might think you were more affiliated with the KKK than Christ!

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