Single predestination?

TedT said:

??First HE makes them all to be sinners by putting them into Adam then HE refuses to give them the gift of salvation so they end in hell forever....riiiight...??

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No that not right at all. If your quoting Isaiah I would expect you are aware of John 3:16, it’s by far the most famous verse in the entire Bible.

BNR32FAN said:

God never damned anyone for no reason. All of us deserve to be condemned, what He did was He showed mercy on those who humbled themselves to Him.

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When HE passed them over for salvation for no reason found in them as is claimed by so many HE was in fact damning them for no reason found in them...

A can only be NOT A at the same time in the same form by means of doublethink, a solution forced upon those who feel a necessity to resolve the cognitive dissonance of believing that opposite ideas are both true at the same time.

They were apparently not even created when HE passed them over for salvation!

HIS salvation of those HE did not pass over for salvation HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NON-SALVATION OF THE ONES HE PASSED OVER! To mention them in the context of HIS passing others over for damnation is a subterfuge, a rotting red herring, imCo.

BNR32FAN said:

You’ve been misled about God by Calvinists.

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I am arguing AGAINST CALVINISM, if you'd look a little closer...I had my dalliance with Calvinism in my misspent youth but have changed my ways...

TedT said:

Umm, sorry, If that's true, ie what part is true?

If the good but sinful seed (sheep gone astray) are here to be redeemed and sanctified by their repudiation of the reprobate weeds (goats) so that they come out from among them and be separate as commanded...

then one reason to witness to everyone is to experience the never ending hostility of the reprobate weeds to GOD and HIS word so that the elect good seed cease hoping the reprobate will some day learn to conform to the ways of GOD. This would free them to accept GOD's word about the absolute necessity of the banishment of the weeds to the outer darkness as unforgivable.

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This doesn’t make any sense, all men except for One were reprobates at one time. No one is born a Christian.

BNR32FAN said:

No that not right at all. If your quoting Isaiah I would expect you are aware of John 3:16, it’s by far the most famous verse in the entire Bible.

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,...and the most ignored verse is only two verses away: John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has ALREADY been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Already condemned for unbelief, a repudiation of faith in Him.

When did this condemnation take place...already ? if they are offered salvation on earth?

TedT said:

When HE passed them over for salvation for no reason found in them as is claimed by so many HE was in fact damning them for no reason found in them...

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First of all who is “them”? Who are we talking about here?

TedT said:

,...and the most ignored verse is only two verses away: John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has ALREADY been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Already condemned for unbelief, a repudiation of faith in Him.

When did this condemnation take place...already ? if they are offered salvation on earth?

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Name one person who was born a believer. As long as a person still has air in his lungs and blood pumping thru his veins he has the ability to become a believer and escape that judgement. Every single Christian who ever lived was once an unbeliever and in danger of that judgement.

TedT said:

I am arguing AGAINST CALVINISM, if you'd look a little closer...I had my dalliance with Calvinism in my misspent youth but have changed my ways...

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I apologize I didn’t realize that because your posts appear to be very Calvinistic in nature. I haven’t looked at the posts from farther back in the discussion so I apologize for my misunderstanding. It wasn’t my intention to misrepresent you my friend.

TedT said:

When did this condemnation take place...already ? if they are offered salvation on earth?

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Jesus didn’t say that anyone has been condemned already He said they were judged already. It was God’s foreknowledge that led Him to send His Son to die for our sins because in His foreknowledge He foresaw that all of us would be condemned. That’s the judgement John 3:18 is referring to. Your Bible translation is incorrect Jesus is referring to judgement not condemnation. All of us were once unbelievers subject to that judgement, condemnation on the other hand there is no coming back from. Once you’ve been condemned there’s no justification.

BNR32FAN said:

First of all who is “them”? Who are we talking about here?

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The reprobate, the non-elect, those condemned already to hell, those He never knew, the goats, the weeds, the people of the evil one. Maybe go back and reread the topic??

BNR32FAN said:

Name one person who was born a believer.

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This non-sequitur is meaningful to you, I hope, but escapes me...
Only sinners are sown into this world by the Son of Man, Matt 13:36-39.

TedT said:

The reprobate, the non-elect, those condemned already to hell, those He never knew, the goats, the weeds, the people of the evil one. Maybe go back and reread the topic??

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John Calvin is the one who says God has condemned people already. You said your not a Calvinist.

TedT said:

This non-sequitur is meaningful to you, I hope, but escapes me...
Only sinners are sown into this world by the Son of Man, Matt 13:36-39.

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Ok now combine that with His message in John 5:34. Jesus is speaking to nonbelievers who were seeking to kill Him while He was trying to save them. He was trying to sow them into the kingdom but they chose to be servants of satan.

BNR32FAN said:

Jesus didn’t say that anyone has been condemned already He said they were judged already. It was God’s foreknowledge that led Him to send His Son to die for our sins because in His foreknowledge He foresaw that all of us would be condemned. That’s the judgement John 3:18 is referring to.

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I accept the majority opinion that this judgement was one of condemnation for what other kind can it be to be already judged?

If they are still being offered the choice to repent or not as YOU claim, how does it not contradict this verse of being judged already for a future condemnation??

BNR32FAN said:

John Calvin is the one who says God has condemned people already. You said your not a Calvinist.

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See my reply at

TedT said:

please,

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Some seem to have represented God, in the purpose or act of election, as electing some and not others, merely because He could or would, or in other words, to exhibit His own sovereignty, without any other reasons than because so He would have it. But it is impossible for God to act arbitrarily, or from any but a good and sufficient reason; that is, it is impossible for Him to do so, and continue to be benevolent. We have said that God has one, and but one end in view; that is, He does, and says, and suffers all for one and the same reason, namely, to promote the highest good of being. He has but one ultimate end, and all His volitions are only efforts to secure that end. The highest well-being of the universe, including His own, is the end on which His supreme and ultimate choice terminates. All His volitions are designed to secure this end, and in all things He is and must be directed by His infinite intelligence, in respect not only to His ultimate end, but also in the choice and use of the means of accomplishing this end. It is impossible that this should not be true, if He is good. In election then He cannot possibly have exercised any arbitrary sovereignty, but must have had the best of reasons for the election. His intelligence must have had good reasons for the choice of some and not of others to salvation, and have affirmed His obligation in view of those reasons to elect just as and whom He did. So good must the reasons have been, that to have done otherwise, would have been sin in Him; that is, to have done otherwise would not have been wise and good. By Charles G Finney (Finney's Systematic Theology)

TedT said:

I accept the majority opinion that this judgement was one of condemnation for what other kind can it be to be already judged?

If they are still being offered the choice to repent or not as YOU claim, how does it not contradict this verse of being judged already for a future condemnation??

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If everyone was judged and condemned for unbelief then no one would enter Heaven because every single person who ever lived was born as an unbeliever. That’s why this judgement absolutely cannot imply that all unbelievers are condemned because it would mean that everyone would have to be condemned for their unbelief. Belief is the determining factor for whether or not a person is condemned so if all have been in disbelief then all would have to be condemned according to your logic on this subject, but because we know that all have been in disbelief yet according to the scriptures those who come to belief will be saved then we must conclude that this verse is not referring to condemnation but instead God’s judgement upon that person while they were in disbelief. Once a person comes to believe they are justified, made right with God thru Christ’s mediation and God’s judgement upon them no longer exists, so naturally their condemnation would no longer exist as well if Christ has personally vouched for them before The Father.

BPPLEE said:

If that's true there's no reason to witness, no reason to repent, no reason to get saved, no reason to do anything but what you wish it's all been decided for you.

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Faith is central, faith is key. Without faith none of this happens. But faith itself is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), faith which comes not by human power, but by the power of God in the Gospel (Romans 10:17). So there is every reason to preach the Gospel, for it is through Word and Sacrament that God works His grace--giving us faith, justifying us, sanctifying us, and saving us.

Further, the elect can resist, the elect can fall away. This isn't single predestination Calvinism; in which case it would basically mean fatalism.

Calvinism amounts to determinism: God determined you to be saved, so you're going to be saved.

That's simply not what Lutherans mean by predestination.

Of course, as long as one tries to make everything logically consistent, the biblical teachings on these things are going to be very difficult to accept. Because we have to accept that it doesn't make sense logically.

God predestines us, having elected (chosen us) unconditionally in Christ before the world began. He chose us, we did not choose Him.

Yet, while we cannot say "yes" to God to get saved, since man is sinful and estranged from God; man can and consistently does say "no" to God.

Thus the irresistable grace of God is resisted. Does that make sense? No. But then again, the Incarnation doesn't make sense either. How can God, who can neither die nor suffer, both die and suffer? If we try to answer this with Nestorianism (only the humanity suffered and died) we fundamentally reject and deny the Incarnation itself. The Incarnation means the impossible: The Immortal God died, the Impassible God suffered.

God who cannot die, died.
God who cannot suffer, suffered.

The Christian will find that embracing the mystery and paradoxes of faith, rather than fighting against them, will be far more at peace than the one who insists on getting all the theology worked out right like some mathematical formula.

It should be sufficient that Christ says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" Which Jesus says directly and specifically about our salvation: It is impossible for man to be saved, except God turns the impossible possible. That's the Gospel. The impossible salvation of helpless and hapless sinners like you and me, and the full redemption of this world from death by the renewal of all things which we hope for.

-CryptoLutheran

BNR32FAN said:

John Calvin is the one who says God has condemned people already. You said your not a Calvinist.

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Actually, Jesus said that. And Paul echoes it. The condemnation of the Law against all wickedness, as Paul talks about it in places like Romans 3 and 7; what do you think he means when he says, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"? Or "There is no one righteous ... there is none who seeks after God"? Or "The Law came and came sin, killing me" etc.

The Law is the condemnation against all of us. Every single one of us was conceived and entered this world a condemned sinner. And justly so, the judgment is not unfair nor unjust--but righteous.

The same Paul writes that God "consigned all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

This has nothing to do with Calvinism. This is basic Christian teaching: Original Sin.

God is in the business of saving sinners.

The condemnation of the Law against sinners has nothing to do with God's disposition toward sinners; because God's disposition toward sinners is grace, mercy, salvation: It's Jesus Christ living and incarnate, crucified for all men. Yes, all. Everyone. Which is also why all are (objectively speaking) already justified (Romans 5:18)--but without faith this treasure, this good, is never brought home to us.

Thus Martin Luther writes in his Large Catechism (and I very much believe he writes truthfully here):

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." - Large Catechism, Part 2, Article III

The condemnation of the Law isn't that God is a big meany pants up in heaven. The condemnation of the Law is that we should be good but we are not. We should love, but we do not. We should be humble, but we aren't. We should be kind, but we are unkind. We shouldn't murder, but we murder; we are bitter, we are angry, we are hostile, we are violent. That's the condemnation: the naked truth of what we are in our sin.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Actually, Jesus said that. And Paul echoes it. The condemnation of the Law against all wickedness, as Paul talks about it in places like Romans 3 and 7; what do you think he means when he says, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"? Or "There is no one righteous ... there is none who seeks after God"? Or "The Law came and came sin, killing me" etc.

The Law is the condemnation against all of us. Every single one of us was conceived and entered this world a condemned sinner. And justly so, the judgment is not unfair nor unjust--but righteous.

The same Paul writes that God "consigned all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

This has nothing to do with Calvinism. This is basic Christian teaching: Original Sin.

God is in the business of saving sinners.

The condemnation of the Law against sinners has nothing to do with God's disposition toward sinners; because God's disposition toward sinners is grace, mercy, salvation: It's Jesus Christ living and incarnate, crucified for all men. Yes, all. Everyone. Which is also why all are (objectively speaking) already justified (Romans 5:18)--but without faith this treasure, this good, is never brought home to us.

Thus Martin Luther writes in his Large Catechism (and I very much believe he writes truthfully here):

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." - Large Catechism, Part 2, Article III

The condemnation of the Law isn't that God is a big meany pants up in heaven. The condemnation of the Law is that we should be good but we are not. We should love, but we do not. We should be humble, but we aren't. We should be kind, but we are unkind. We shouldn't murder, but we murder; we are bitter, we are angry, we are hostile, we are violent. That's the condemnation: the naked truth of what we are in our sin.

-CryptoLutheran

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No one is condemned as long as the are still alive. Everyone who is still alive has the opportunity to repent and come to Christ and be saved. John Calvin teaches that some cannot be condemned and some cannot be saved no matter what they do because it’s not up to them, they have no control over whether or not they repent or believe.