sin, pain, suffering & Genesis 3

[Jenny85]

Hello all,


I'm doing this mini bible study with my boyfriend and right now we're reading Genesis 3 and I have a question...


if we were never to sin / experience pain or suffering then how is it that Jesus was always supposed to come and save us from all our sins if it was never intended for us to be like that (sinners)?


My boyfriend did a good job of explaining it to me but suggested I post a thread to get a better understanding...


God Bless!

 

[spiritwarrior37]

God never intended man to sin. Adam and Eve were perfect and placed in a perfect garden. It was when they disobeyed God that sin entered into the world.
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Sin entered into the world through Adam disobeying God and with sin came death. Not physical death, but spiritual death. It was then that man became seperated from God. Therefore in the Old Teatament lambs were sacrificed for the atonement of sins. Jesus was sent as the final sacrifice for the sins of man. We are born with a sinful nature because of Adam, but we have Jesus as our saviour. Hope this helps.

 

[Desruc]

I'm not sure why you think that "we were never to sin" were is this notion coming from?

 

[JimfromOhio]

In terms of "suffering". Whenever we are inclined to presume that the suffering of another person is the result of that person's sin, we should recall the foolishness of Job's "counselors" in attempting to explain the mystery of God's will (those with sin and those without sin). Job's friends were obstacles to Job's relationship with God when they don't really know why things are happening to Job. God has given us the grace to sanctify us. The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (which also includes sickness). Paul just needed to focus on God rather than the problem. God uses thorns (sufferings) to perfect His "power is perfected in weakness". God is saying "You should not have self-confidence and trust in yourself in the sense you believe you're capable of anything eternal that only I can provide grace and power." Only God can overcome situation as long as you trust in His GRACE. The question here is, when God given you the grace to handle the sufferings of life, did you allowed Him? That's the issue.

Christ's definition of Beatitudes (Matthew 5) contradicts temporal happiness. Only God can provide happiness when I have Jesus Christ in my heart and only Jesus Christ can give me true happiness from "within". Jesus is saying to me: "Happy are those who joyfully endure problems and trials because knowing God is teaching and leading me to where He want me to go." "Our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all" (2 Corinthians 4:11,17).

In my OWN life, I have learned TRUE happiness with the help from the Holy Spirit. To forget my own will because God's will is BETTER. I realized that when I allow Him, my life is more peaceful and more enjoyable. I noticed that. Even though God will not take away my problems but He always been there for me when I am facing problems. I am still having problems but very very peaceful because of God's GRACE. When we most aware of our problems, we are more inclined to collapse into God's strength and experience His amazing grace. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9).

 

[Cribstyl]

First of all understand that God is the beginning and the end, this mean that time is for man not God. He already knows what will happen, that's why prophets tell us what's on the Bside. So He already seen the videotape of every detail. He will even make some changes for some who ask Him to.

By creating us in His image after His likeness, this gave us power to chose between good and evil. Our independance is a great gift from God that we can betray by changing the image of God (us) into a creature addicted to the world.
God is Holy

In the end God's purpose will prevail. All things temporary will be burned. Our faith and trust in God with our lives are moves we will not regret.

the end

 

[outhwaar]

The Catholic Franciscan tradition teaches that Jesus was always intended to come as man, even if we didn't sin. This idea flows from the notion of the primacy of Christ. His coming was not contingent on human action (sin). He loved us so much from the very beginning, that He wanted to become one with us, by becoming one of us, and so to unite humanity into the Trinity. It is because of our sin that, when He did come, we rejected Him, instead of rejoicing in Him, and it became necessary for Him to die for our salvation.

 

[angelmom01]

As I see it, Adam and Eve were not created perfect and immortal (first the NATURAL then the spiritual). If they were "perfect" then they would not have sinned.

It was not until AFTER they partook of the tree ~of the knowledge of good and evil~ that God said NOW they are become "as one of us TO KNOW good and evil".

Seems to me that God did indeed what us TO KNOW good and evil.

All is according the will and plan of God. IMHO

angelmom

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The Catholic Franciscan tradition teaches that Jesus was always intended to come as man, even if we didn't sin. This idea flows from the notion of the primacy of Christ. His coming was not contingent on human action (sin). He loved us so much from the very beginning, that He wanted to become one with us, by becoming one of us, and so to unite humanity into the Trinity. It is because of our sin that, when He did come, we rejected Him, instead of rejoicing in Him, and it became necessary for Him to die for our salvation.

I totally agree.

Christ's incarnation was not merely a tool to get him on the cross. The complete union of divinity and humanity in his single person accomplished something in-itself.

Even if we had never sinned, we would require a fuller union with God- one provided by the fullness of that union in the person of Christ. So in becoming human, Christ brought humanity into the Godhead and the principle of godness into humanity. See the St. Athanasius quote in my signature.

 

[HypnoToad]

Hello all,


I'm doing this mini bible study with my boyfriend and right now we're reading Genesis 3 and I have a question...


if we were never to sin / experience pain or suffering then how is it that Jesus was always supposed to come and save us from all our sins if it was never intended for us to be like that (sinners)?


My boyfriend did a good job of explaining it to me but suggested I post a thread to get a better understanding...


God Bless!

Actually, I'd first like to see a reference to "Jesus was ALWAYS supposed to come and save us" from Scripture. (I'm not claiming you're wrong, just looking for a reference.)

 

[iannassah]

God is all-knowing... and since He is all-knowing then He would know what would happen--what Adam & Eve would do. (We can't blame Adam & Eve... if we had been in the garden we would've made the same mistake). He knew that we would need a Savior.
Wouldn't you want people to love you because they want to or because they choose to....instead of having no choice and being forced to love you. He gives us freewill to choose to love Him or not. Who knows the mind of The LORD. He is infinite, we are tiny finite beings and know so little!!!

Shalom,
iannassah

 

[armothe]

Actually, I'd first like to see a reference to "Jesus was ALWAYS supposed to come and save us" from Scripture. (I'm not claiming you're wrong, just looking for a reference.)

Genesis 3:22 - "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Revelation 2:7 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Revelation 22:19 - and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Isaiah 59:15&16 - Now the LORD saw, and it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice. And He saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede; then His own arm brought salvation to Him, and His righteousness upheld Him.

Zechariah 9:9, Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Isaiah 53:3-7, He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

 

[holyrokker]

I see it like this. God never wanted mankind to sin, but in creating moral beings, knew that sin was a possible choice. For that reason, God had already set up, before the creation, a plan for redemption.

 

[holyrokker]

God is all-knowing... and since He is all-knowing then He would know what would happen--what Adam & Eve would do. (We can't blame Adam & Eve...

I prefer to define "all-knowing" as God knows all that is possible to be known.

For example; one of the reasons God came in the flesh was so that He could experience temptation. Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted. As a result, He is able to help us when we are being tempted. But He does not know what it is like to sin. He has never sinned. He has never known sin. It is foreign to Him.

Likewise, I don't think He knows our ultimate moral choices beforehand. It is something that can't be known in advance.

There are instances in the Bible where God tested His people to see what they would do. Why would that be necessary if He already knew in advance?

 

[angelmom01]

Actually, I'd first like to see a reference to "Jesus was ALWAYS supposed to come and save us" from Scripture. (I'm not claiming you're wrong, just looking for a reference.)

Here are a few more...


Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were FINISHED from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world.

There are other verse that speak about things establish "from the foundation of the world".

God declared THE END ~from~ THE BEGINNING.

 

[davec375]

I see it like this. God never wanted mankind to sin, but in creating moral beings, knew that sin was a possible choice. For that reason, God had already set up, before the creation, a plan for redemption.

I prefer to define "all-knowing" as God knows all that is possible to be known.

For example; one of the reasons God came in the flesh was so that He could experience temptation. Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted. As a result, He is able to help us when we are being tempted. But He does not know what it is like to sin. He has never sinned. He has never known sin. It is foreign to Him.

Likewise, I don't think He knows our ultimate moral choices beforehand. It is something that can't be known in advance.

There are instances in the Bible where God tested His people to see what they would do. Why would that be necessary if He already knew in advance?

Two truly excellent posts and I would like to add. Throughout human history from Adam's sin and the fall of man to this very day, all recorded human history, hasn't the earth been convulsing and writhing going through the terrible birth pangs. The "knowledge of good and evil"?