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Romanseight2005
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So what do you make then of Adam? Do you see him metaphorically, and if so, what is the metaphor?
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I don't see the problem. Sin isn't a historical event or a genetic condition. It's something we all commit because we're all human and live in a human society where we all rub each other up the wrong way. I don't see why there has to be some historical figure to do the first sin.
I have to admit that this does not add up to me. There is no indication in scripture that there was any death at all until Adam and Eve sinned.
In fact it makes a huge deal of the fact that sin caused death. Without sin there would be no death.
Why would animals kill(innocently)
Your understanding of what animals do is based on what we currently see animals do, but scripture states that the ground was cursed at the fall of man. We see a change occurring that would very likely affect all of nature.
Why would death be such a huge deal for humans, yet already happening to everyone else.
Furthermore, wouldn't death already be part of the natural state of man if what they came from was already part of a life and death cycle?
But before the law was given, people were already dying because of sin. That verse must not be taken out of context,
So what do you make then of Adam? Do you see him metaphorically, and if so, what is the metaphor?
There is indication of vegetative death, since vegetation was used as food. There is no explicit indication of animal death but nothing to suggest that animal death did not occur either.
For humans, yes. Because humans are aware of their mortality. Unlike animals we know we will die. So death is a big deal for humans.
Let's not misapply human emotions about death to animals. In other passages of scripture God glories in his creation of predators. We don't know that animal death has the moral implications of human death. We do know that only humans are subject to spiritual death.
The only scripture that suggests an effect through all nature is the passage in Romans that speaks of "bondage to decay". I can't see that has anything to do with whether or not animals died before the fall.
Because we are human with the intellectual and emotional capacity to contemplate our own mortality and because for us, death implies spiritual as well as physical death--eternal separation from our creator. Death IS a much bigger deal for humans than for other animals.
Yes, indeed. If not, why was the Tree of Life needed in the garden?
It's not. Paul makes the same point, that death reigned from Adam to Moses before the law was given right in that same passage. Yet he also says that it was the law that made sin known.
Are you aware that in the Hebrew the word "adam" is never used as a name? "Adam" in the sense of a personal name appears only in the New Testament and then only in contexts where its application to one historic individual is controversial.
"ha-adam" the actual Hebrew term used in Genesis means simply "the man" (or "the human" as in Gen. 1 it is applied to females as well) and can be used either of an individual or generically for humankind. The personification of all humanity as one individual is a figure of speech called "metonymy" where a part stands for the whole.
Were you implying that Adam was already going to die, and that sin wasn't necessary for his physical death?
I completely agree with your points, but thought I'd clarify that had Adam not fallen, he wouldn't have likely died, since he then would have been able to eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal. There certainly, afaik, isn't any indication that he wouldn't have eaten from the Tree of Life if he didn't fall.Quite likely. Gen. 3:22 implies that Adam could have lived forever even after the fall, as long as he could reach the fruit of the Tree of Life. I take that to mean that the Tree of Life was also necessary to eternal life before the fall. Note that the Tree of Life also appears in the new Jerusalem in Revelation.
I completely agree with your points, but thought I'd clarify that had Adam not fallen, he wouldn't have likely died, since he then would have been able to eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal. There certainly, afaik, isn't any indication that he wouldn't have eaten from the Tree of Life if he didn't fall.
So while he had the potential to die prior to the fall, he would not have actualized death if he didn't fall. If that makes sense.
It's a story. Adam is a representative of the whole human race, and I see the word "ha-adam" as being rather similar to the way people used to talk of "hands", as in "deck-hands" or "mill-hands," where the word "hand" represents the whole man. I can't remember if the technical term for that is synecdoche or litotes, but it's something like. Adam represents the whole of humanity rather as "hand" represents the whole of humanity.So what do you make then of Adam? Do you see him metaphorically, and if so, what is the metaphor?
Which makes sense, since adam in Hebrew literally means mankind.It's a story. Adam is a representative of the whole human race, and I see the word "ha-adam" as being rather similar to the way people used to talk of "hands", as in "deck-hands" or "mill-hands," where the word "hand" represents the whole man. I can't remember if the technical term for that is synecdoche or litotes, but it's something like. Adam represents the whole of humanity rather as "hand" represents the whole of humanity.
It's a story. Adam is a representative of the whole human race, and I see the word "ha-adam" as being rather similar to the way people used to talk of "hands", as in "deck-hands" or "mill-hands," where the word "hand" represents the whole man. I can't remember if the technical term for that is synecdoche or litotes, but it's something like. Adam represents the whole of humanity rather as "hand" represents the whole of humanity.
That's one possible way to look at it, yes.So do you mean that what Genesis describes of Adam and Eve in Eden is some path that each of us takes?
So do you mean that what Genesis describes of Adam and Eve in Eden is some path that each of us takes?
I can't remember if the technical term for that is synecdoche or litotes, but it's something like.
A nice idea, but they need to change their web address from Natural burial coop. If I am in Canada, remind me not to buy any eggs from them.Speaking of natural death, I recently came across this site on natural funerals.
http://www.naturalburial.coop/canada/
Maybe you all are too young to give this topic much attention yet, but I thought it worth a look see.
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