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Sin and the Second Death

newton3005

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One of the nice things about the Bible is that if one Verse leaves you scratching your head or otherwise leaves you with unanswered questions, there’s more than likely another Verse in the Bible where you can find the answer. At first glance it seems terms such as “sin’ or the “second death” are bandied about, and some who are without patience may find it frustrating that the Verses mentioning those terms don’t define them. And often even preachers may use those terms, mentioning them to people who don’t exactly know what they are and would leave the church still not knowing.

Yet there are others who aren’t too familiar with the Bible who see no problem in calling out a person, telling them, ‘You’re gonna die, you sinner,’ while they themselves don’t know what they’re talking about or lack the depth needed in determining to what extent a person may be subject to the “second death” and the mitigating circumstances that may prevent a person from meeting that fate.

What is sin? James 4:17 says that sin is knowing what the right thing to do is but failing to do it. Well, that explains it, right? Perhaps not. It begs the question of what the right thing to do is. Since this definition is in the Bible, one wouldn’t be wrong in believing that the right thing to do is that which God would consider to be “good,” as He considered the things He did in creating the world in Genesis to be “good.” Seems that if we use the story of Creation told in Genesis, something good as God sees it is anything that adds to what God created instead of detracting from it.

If you still don’t know what sin is at this point, Galatians 5:19-21 lays some examples: “sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies…” Well, then. I guess we all know where people like the Roman Emperor Caligula might be spending their eternity! To be clear, that Verse says these are “works of the flesh,” and it says that those who commit such acts “will not inherit the kingdom of God.” One could safely conclude that these acts are acts of sin, if we can presuppose that these are not the right thing to do and detract from what God created. Can you conceive of the Lord considering the above acts to be “good”? Then again, God’s thoughts are not our thoughts, as the Bible reminds us.

The various acts considered to be sinful are just one part to considering an act to be an act of sin. The other part, in order to charge a person with committing sin, is that the person engaged in such acts has to know these acts are not the right thing to do. Otherwise, although we know the person committed sinful acts, it may not be enough to lay the charge of sin on him for all time and evermore. Some may say we could have used a James when many lawful authorities moved to hold that ignorance of the law is not a defense, particularly when it comes to giving out traffic fines, but that’s another story.

Anyway, what about the “second death”? Between Matthew 25:41 and Verses such as Revelation 21:8, the second death involves the lake of fire. Offhand, it’s hard to think of anyone that would want to spend eternity there. But anyway, Jesus in Matthew 25:41 says that he would say to those who failed to help the poor and needy to go into the lake of fire. Revelation 21:8 says, “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” So, we know what the second death is. It is the death that sinners may go to after having died once, that is after having been buried when they died the first time.

Is there a way of avoiding the lake of fire? There is. Although Passages such as 1 John 5:17 says that “All wrongdoing is sin,” it goes on to say that ”there is sin that does not lead to death.” This certainly applies to those who know what is sinful but have done the sin anyway. What sin would not lead to the lake of fire? 1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, God would be faithful and just to forgive us those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Note that the Verse doesn’t say He WILL forgive us, it just says He will be faithful and just if He does so. So, like lots of things in the Bible, there are no absolutes. But safe to say, you stand a better chance in asking for forgiveness than if you don’t ask at all, to avoid the second death. And recall Luke 23:42-43, in which the condemned man on the cross next to Jesus asks Jesus to remember him when Jesus enters Paradise, and Jesus tells him that today he will ‘be with him in Paradise.’
 

St_Worm2

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1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, God would be faithful and just to forgive us those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Note that the Verse doesn’t say He WILL forgive us, it just says He will be faithful and just if He does so. So, like lots of things in the Bible, there are no absolutes.
Hello Newton3005, your OP has some interesting thoughts in it, but I'd like to ask you about the one above first. Here's the verse in question (which I understand as a promise from our loving, heavenly Abba, but it's something that could also be read and understood as simply a statement of the facts, I suppose, especially when taken in context with the verses that surround it).

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

So, which part of v9 leads you to believe that it is neither a promise nor a statement of fact from God, but only a possibility instead? After all, this passage was written specifically to those who are already believers, and that at every level of maturity in the church (take note that the pronouns used by the Apostle show us that he is including himself in the mix).

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
 
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newton3005

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So, which part of v9 leads you to believe that it is neither a promise nor a statement of fact from God, but only a possibility instead?
No one knows for sure what God "will" do. Only He knows what he'll do. Just like no one can predict the future, only God can. We cannot hold God to anything. As it says in Isaiah 55:8, God's thoughts are not our thoughts. Sometimes, as in the Wilderness with the Hebrews and as with the Ninevens, He changes His mind. I imagine that if there were any witnesses at the time, aside from Jonah, who really took it personally, they would have believed that the destruction of Nineveh to be a foregone conclusion, yet God did an about-face and forgave them. There are no certainties in the Bible except for one...whoever sins is held accountable, in this life and/or the next. And that accountability CAN take many forms, including forgiveness. No one knows who God WILL ultimately forgive for their sins Lot's wife wasn't forgiven for looking back.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hello Newton3005, you said,
No one knows for sure what God "will" do.
That's true, unless He tells us what He's going to do (which He does quite often in the Scriptures). Then we know exactly what He's going to do, and why (and sometimes how).

Only He knows what he'll do.
Again, that's true, unless He tells us (which means that He is not the only one knows from then on, yes?).

Just like no one can predict the future, only God can.
Jonah seemed to because He knew the living God well enough to know what He would do. That's why he ran away from God when God told him to go to Ninevah as a missionary and preach, because he knew that the Ninevites would repent at his preaching and that God would choose to forgive them when they did (he hated them and wanted God to destroy them instead).

As far as "knowing" the future goes, you are correct, only the One who ordained it actually knows what will happen (unless, again, He shares what He knows with us so that we can know it too :amen:).

We cannot hold God to anything.
Since becoming a believer at age 30 (almost 39 years ago now) I've found Him to be completely trustworthy. Are you saying that He has lied to you, deceived you/misled you somehow? Please explain how, if it's not too personal.

As it says in Isaiah 55:8, God's thoughts are not our thoughts.
That's true :amen: Of course, this hardly means that He is capricious, only that His ways/thoughts are higher than ours are .. THANKFULLY!! He acts selflessly and out of love towards us, and always for our good (even if it seems the very opposite of "good" to us when we are in the midst of a trial that He has allowed us to face .. e.g. Romans 8:28, 32; Hebrews 12:7-11).

He also sees to it that we will not be tempted beyond that which He knows we are able to handle .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 10:13. IOW, as our loving, heavenly Abba, He is always "for us", never against us. As Pastor Charles Spurgeon once said, "I've learned to kiss the waves that throw me up against the Rock of Ages".

He changes His mind.
In a sense/from our POV, that's true sometimes. God sent word to the Ninevites through Jonah that their time was up due to their sinfulness and pride, but they all repented in sackcloth and ashes and God forgave them because they did (Jonah knew this would happen, as I mentioned earlier, and so did God, of course). God ALWAYS knew that they would, and He also knew that He would forgive them when they did :)

All of this, like the Lord's death on the Cross, was known and ordained by God from before the foundation of the world .. e.g. Revelation 13:8.

He is called the Rock of Ages and His Name is Yahweh, not Caprice ;) (again, THANKFULLY!!)

God bless you!!

--David

Numbers 23
19 God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
 
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