Sin and forgiveness

[Markh]

I have been thinking about the scope of the extra-personal affects of sin and how forgiveness works in a domino rally of sins.

basically, if someone commits a sin, lets say murder, a person is killed and it is a terrible sin.

One can be forgiven from murdering a person if he is truely sorry- but how does this affect the person who has been murdered and his soul? As I am finding it difficult to see a person being able to be forgiven for murder and going to heaven- but the person he murdered going to hell because he did not have the chance to confess his sins.

also a similar point- Does confession of the initial sin nullify external sins which may have happend because of your initial sin- lets say with murder again, lets say the murder victim's brother- because of what you did, went mad and did loads of terrible things- like rape and such- would you be forgiven for secondary effects in the confession of your sin if you were not aware of the secondary effects happening?

And would your confession nullify, partially or fully, the sins which the brother, in this case commited- since they were directly caused by you.

or is God isolationist in his forgiveness- does confession of murder mean only forgiveness of murder and if this is the case- upon who do the secondary sins remain.

 

[karla]

This is how I think about it. Only God knows what is truly in our hearts, so only God can judge us. The person who was murdered - no one knows what was in their heart at the moment of death - did they turn to God in that instant, did they live a life in which they tried to please God, or did they live a life as though God never existed. Even if it is the latter, we on earth still do not know their fate, because God is the final judge.


As far as other sins that are committed because of the murder (ie. rape or other terrible sins) we are in control of what we do and are held accountable for our actions despite the circumstances. These are sins in their own right and may also be forgven by God. There are plenty of people, who because of grief and tragedy, go and do things that they would not normal do. A mother or father who snaps and kills the person who murdered their child, a greving person who turns to drugs, alcohol, or sex etc. These actions are wrong and are sinful, but as I said before only God can judge us. e must each seek forgiveness for our own sins and not try to place the blame of those sins on others.

God Bless

 

[marciadietrich]

Maybe a better example of a sin that has a causal link would be when children are abused and grow up to be abusers themselves. There might be some lesser culpability where they might have a lessened will and lessened responsibility, but at the same time they probably are not totally blameless. Many people who were abused or witnessed it as children are afraid to have children. There are certainly effects that go beyond what the original person who started the chain reaction intended or might foresee. Yet each person effected by sin does have personal responsibility for their actions.

On the murderer having a chance to repent and his victim not, maybe that person had a last thought of plea for mercy and had a chance to repent. Sometimes there is no real warning - say people who died in the Oklahoma City bombing or 9/11, many died instantly. That would be why I don't see where the death penalty is thought to possibly keep a person from having a chance to repent, it gives every chance for the person to reflect, receive the gospel if they are receptive and to repent before that happens. The victims of murder sometimes die with no chance to reflect and repent or have last terrorized moments where they are trying to survive and not a nice environment to think and reflect on your life and sins.

Anyhow, good topic for discussion.

Marcia

 

[Markh]

Perhaps though there is a structualist element to sin.

Surely if the structures around you cause you to sin, or at least make it inevitable that you will sin, then these people are less culpiable than if the structures are of that which do not produce sin and the person still sins.

 

[Markh]

so basically. you think there is an element of human agency behind these chain reaction sins- rather than them being totally pre-determined by the social structures the person is situated within.

 

[Y_Cathol]

An entry I found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not
observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the
moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without
complete consent.
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for
created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the
virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment.
Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to
commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition
to the will and friendship of God; it does not break the covenant with
God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not
deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and
consequently eternal happiness."[134]
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light
sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take
them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number
of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a
number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all,
confession.[135]
1864 "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness,
but is guilty of an eternal sin."[136] There are no limits to the mercy of
God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting,
rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy
Spirit.[137] Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and
eternal loss.
V. THE PROLIFERATION OF SIN
1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of
the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud
conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin
tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the
moral sense at its root.
1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also
be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has
distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They
are called "capital" because they engender other sins, other vices.[138]
They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are "sins that cry
to heaven": the blood of Abel,[139] the sin of the Sodomites,[140] the cry
of the people oppressed in Egypt,[141] the cry of the foreigner, the
widow, and the orphan,[142] injustice to the wage earner.[143]
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the
sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do
so;
- by protecting evil-doers.
1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes
concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise
to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine
goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal
sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous
sense, they constitute a "social sin."[144]
IN BRIEF
1870 "God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy
upon all" (Rom 11:32).
1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law
(St. Augustine, Faust 22: PL 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It
rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of
Christ.
1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man's nature and injures
human solidarity.
1873 The root of all sins lies in man's heart. The kinds and the gravity
of sins are determined principally by their objects.
1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it -
something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of
man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without
which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal
death.
1875 Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity,
which it allows to subsist in us.
1876 The repetition of sins - even venial ones - engenders vices, among
which are the capital sins.