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Simple question for the ID proponents

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Jimlarmore

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Giving examples of use in other parts of the Bible is fine. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is concluding that because the same word is used to indicate a local event means unequivically that it has to be a local event in the flood event. Here is the reason it's not a good thing to do. In the context of the flood narrative we see God saying that the end of all flesh was before Him. Do you see Him saying anything about not destroying part of creation or part of the earth being spared someplace else for this event? Nope, not at all.

Jesus Christ said that as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of man be Matt 24:37-39. The second coming is going to be a catastrophe of global proportions just like the flood was. At this time all mankind will be destroyed just like they were during the flood. There will be no survivers of the second coming of Christ who are not taken up with HIm in the clouds.

Read one of these article to see what will happen at the second advent of Christ:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/Home/SearchResults/tabid/133/Default.aspx?xsq=second+coming

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Maverick3000

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Here's some neat stuff to look at for the global flood"
http://www.globalflood.org/

God Bless
Jim Larmore

In my little time I look through the site, I discovered that the people who made it (a.) Have no clue how we came up with the age of the Earth <Hint: we don't use Carbon dating>, (b.) post articles by "scientists" who are in fields completely unrelated to their work they actually do (Why is an engineer talking about dating?) (c.) all their technical articles come from the exact same source.

Don't mind me if I am skeptical at best about that website.
 
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shernren

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I agree with your correction here. As usual, my "issue" with you turns out to be really just a pedantic quibble. =)
 
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Assyrian

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What is really sad is rationalizing away the clear word of the Bible.
By rationalizing away the clear word, you mean showing how a beloved traditional interpretation is not supported by the the actual text?

And Jesus said the fire from heaven destroyed them all. All means all right? All does not mean some and some survived does it? Did Jesus say there were other regions where men and animals did not get consumed? No he didn't. He did not have to. It is as much a fallacy to read the entire human race into Jesus statement that the fire destroyed them all, as it is to read it into 'the everything that had breath' in Genesis. It tells us of the totality of destruction there, not how wide the area.

The Bible says that all of the earth was full of violence and all of man's thoughts were evil.
Remember what I said about erets usually meaning a land or region? Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the land [erets], and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. It is the people in the land whose thought were evil continually. It doesn't say anything about people in other lands.

God repented that He made man at all. The only one that was found faithful was Noah and his family.
It is actually a really strange passage, I don't know of any creationists who actually take it literally. It refers back to the creation in the beginning of Genesis and uses the language of God creating Adam. God repented that he created Adam and said he was going to blot out Adam in a flood. Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made [asah Gen 1:26] Adam (or the man) on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will blot out Adam (or the man) whom I have created [bara Gen 1:27] from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them." According to any literalist chronology Adam was long dead at the time. Gen 6 is actually taking the creation account and using its language figuratively to describe the the destruction of the people in the land.

The Zephaniah does the same thing with the flood flood account, using it to to describe the destruction of Judah
Zeph 1:2 "I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth[ha'adamah]," declares the LORD.
3 "I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, and the rubble with the wicked. I will cut off mankind (or Adam or the man) from the face of the earth [ha'adamah]," declares the LORD
.

I should point out that some TEs say the whole human race was living in that region, so the flood was universal in that sense, just not geographically. But I don't think the account says anything other than all the people living in that land were killed.

Incidentally, it is worth looking at the tables of the nations in Gen 10. It describes the survivors of the flood spreading out and forming the nations of the Middle East from Libya and Ethiopia to Persia. It does not say anything about Maoris or Koreans, Zulu or Incas being descended from Noah.

A 'discerning mind' in other words you think God is telling you I am wrong. It would be better if you could support your position from scripture. Don't mistake discernment for the discomfort of facing serious flaws in what you thought was a key interpretation for Creationism.
 
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Assyrian

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The problem is, when we know the language is used to describe local events, then you have no basis to say it is global. It might be, the language could be read that way, there is just nothing in scripture that says we should read it globally.

The context of the all flesh is very clear. It is the all flesh through whom the land was filled with violence 13 And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the land is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the land. It is all flesh in the land filled by violence. Look at the previous two verses, it tells us that it was all flesh in the land that God is talking about. Gen 6:11 Now the land was corrupt in God's sight, and the land was filled with violence. 12 And God saw the land , and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way in the land. All flesh no more means the entire human race than the 'destroyed them all' meant all the human race was consumed when God destroyed Sodom.

Don't forget that while Jesus used Noah to describe this judgment, he also used Lot. Using Noah as an example does not mean the flood was aany more global, than the destruction in Lot's day.
 
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Jimlarmore

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(Why is an engineer talking about dating?)

Don't mind me if I am skeptical at best about that website.

Why would an engineer talk about anything but engineering? Being an old engineer this kind of struck a nerve with me. Why do we demand someone be an absolute expert in a particular field to intelligently comment on or evaluate it?

Why can't we see the workings of how conclusions are arived at and make good determinations on our own no matter what our training is? I"m not a geologist but I have studied it long enough to understand the basics of the field and how they arive at their conclusions. I'm not a medical doctor either but I have studied anatomy,physiology,pathology enough to understand what causes disease and what is appropriate practice of a physician. IOW, you don't have to be an expert in a field to know if something is wrong or not.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Jimlarmore

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Don't forget that while Jesus used Noah to describe this judgment, he also used Lot. Using Noah as an example does not mean the flood was aany more global, than the destruction in Lot's day.

The example was total destruction. There were no survivors in Sodom and Gomorrah and there will be no survivors of hell-fire in the end. This is what Christ was saying here. There were no survivors of the flood either except Noah and his family according to the Bible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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busterdog

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Unfortunately, you are not the first to use common sense with this verse in response to such arguments. SSDD
 
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Assyrian

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No you still can't get from the description of total destruction to claiming the extent has to be global. The destruction of Sodom was described as total, Jesus described both Sodom and the flood as 'and destroyed them all' but we know the area involved in with Sodom was limited. Your argument simply does not follow.

There were no survivors of the flood either except Noah and his family according to the Bible.
Very true. No one but Lot and his daughters survived the destruction of Sodom. But people outside the area where completely untouched, you would not even call them survivors because they weren't there.
 
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Jimlarmore

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I'm sorry my friend but you have convinced yourself of something that is contrary to common sense and a clear reading of the scripture. When Christ said that the end times would be like the days of Noah just before the flood He never said anything about survivors anywhere else on the earth. What He said was they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the flood came and took them all away. He used this example as a similar scenario that will be applied to the second advent when at His coming the elements will melt with fervent heat and all of the wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming, i.e. 2 Pet 3:10 and 2 Thess 2:8. There are a few other texts that tells us the same thing in Revelations and Zecharia.
Very true. No one but Lot and his daughters survived the destruction of Sodom. But people outside the area where completely untouched, you would not even call them survivors because they weren't there.

To show that this is an example of what will happen at the burning of hell-fire you need to show where the Bible says that there will be survivors of hell-fire. Sodom and Gomorrah were totally destroyed with eternal fire, i.e. Jude 7, also 2 Pet 2:6. That does not mean the fire didn't go out. What that means is it produced an eternal result of destruction. No amount of water hoses will put out the flames of hell once God lites them. So shall it also be for the lost wicked at the burning of hell-fire.

John 3:16 is clear that there are two ways for us to go, life or death. God thru His Son Jesus Christ has provided us a way to escape the verdict of death that rests on all of us. Christ paid for our sins but if we refuse His sacrifice then we will have to pay for them ourselves.

The flood never left anyone who refused the way of escape, neither will those who refuse the way of escape at the end of time.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Maverick3000

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Why would an engineer talk about anything but engineering? Being an old engineer this kind of struck a nerve with me. Why do we demand someone be an absolute expert in a particular field to intelligently comment on or evaluate it?

Because the level it takes to understand aspects of these fields past the very basic requires years of training. You cannot just simply understand all aspects of a science by yourself. And besides, why would an engineer know about a subject more about the guy who did it for years?

I"m not a geologist but I have studied it long enough to understand the basics of the field and how they arive at their conclusions

Which is why your sources attack Carbon dating, even though it means nothing when it comes to the age of the Earth?


There is alot more to medical practice then just what knowing where diseases come from at a basic level. This isn't just pointing out methodological issues, which anyone can learn if they use common sense, this is going at some major long standing scientific theories that have been supported for years. Once again, why would an engineer get something right that 98% of Geologists get wrong?
 
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Assyrian

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Sorry Jim, no matter how large a font you use you cannot get around the fact Jesus used the same sort of language to describe the flood as he used for Sodom. If fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all Luke 17:29, simply meant the total destruction of everyone caught up in the fire, not that the fire was global, then the flood came and destroyed them all v.26, means everyone caught up in the flood was killed, not that the flood was global.

I don't see any significant difference between the description of the flood in:
Luke 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

and in:
Matt 24:37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away.

Yet the language in Luke is only talking about the totality of the destruction within the flood, not the extent of the flood. It cannot mean the flood was global because that would mean the fire that destroyed Sodom was global too and we know it wasn't.

You are quote right that Sodom is used as an illustration of hell fire in Jude and 2Peter. Now ask yourself, does that mean Sodom was destroyed by a global fire? Using the flood or Sodom as an illustration of judgement does not mean either have to be global. There is nothing in scripture that tells us the flood was global.
 
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Jimlarmore

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I didn't say he would know more. What I said was an engineer is very capable of arriving at proper conclusions based on the evidence without spending years in the disipline to do so. Experts are proved wrong all the time in science and in some cases by those who are not always within their field of study.


Which is why your sources attack Carbon dating, even though it means nothing when it comes to the age of the Earth?

I believe the attack was on radiometric dating per se' not just carbon dating. In both cases a lot of assumptions have to be made for the dating to be valid.


You throw figures around loosely without validation my friend. I am not sure just how many geologist are 100% convinced that the mainstream paradigm is correct. Of the five friends I have who are in the field. One is a geophysicist and the others are geologists, only 1 of them is 100% convinced the paradigm is correct. That is a small number of folks but based on percentages it would only be 20% not 98%. The larger the number quarried the larger your percentage may become but I would be willing to wager it would never reach 98% even if a thousand were polled.

Besides a majority a truth does not make. The majority of scientists used to believe that life arose from rotting flesh, they could debate well sighting that most well studied and good scientist believed this is what happens, guess what? They were wrong.


God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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shernren

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I believe the attack was on radiometric dating per se' not just carbon dating. In both cases a lot of assumptions have to be made for the dating to be valid.

Just curious - what are those assumptions? You claim to know the field; let's see if you do.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Just curious - what are those assumptions? You claim to know the field; let's see if you do.

Here's a short article that describes why radiometric dating is not always a sure fired thing.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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theIdi0t

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Does something need to be falsifiable to be true?

It has to be in order to be scientifically true. An unfalsifiable truth, is not a scientific truth. In the same sense that Christ proclaims he is the Truth, is not a claim that the seeking of Christ yields a grasp of biology. Christ is the Truth, is an unfalsifiable truth, and it's not a scientific claim to it either.

Only positivists, certain unbelievers, and foolish believers, attempt to validate truth with only that which is science, in a heretical belief that proposes science as God.
 
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LoG

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Is anyone going to answer the OP? We're three pages into it, and no one has taken a crack at answering the question I posed.

As Christians who believe God created the universe and everything in it, is the concept of intelligent design falsifiable?

Isn't the ToE an exercise in attempting to falsify that Intelligent Design was required? From that perspective, ID is falsifiable.
 
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Maverick3000

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An engineer would not know how to read the evidence, how to do the proper procedure, or know the entire background of a subject without training. There is a reason why many pro-creationist "scientists" get so many basic principles of evolution or the big bang wrong. Its because a very small minority of them actually know much about the subject itself.


Small sample. Not to mention your threshold is very narrow. There is a difference between believing in the general mainstream paradigm and completely agreeing 100%. Many geologists disagree over specifics, but they would generally agree on the most basic stuff.



That was over hundreds and thousands of years ago when science was in its infancy and much of the tools and methodology they use now didn't exist. Using them as an example of how current science could be wrong is faulty on many levels.
 
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