Shroud of Turin, the science

[two-timer]

Try to stick to scientific arguments and evidence only please, then give your opinion on whether or not you believe Jesus was the man wrapped in the Shroud of Turin. If you're not familiar with the scientific study of the Shroud of Turin, here are a couple of nice places, both were acquired from everyone's friend, Google:

worldwideweb.historian.net/shroud
worldwideweb.world-mysteries.com/sar_2


Based on what I've read, 1) I think it's a possibility that the carbon dating technique is made unreliable based on what might have happened in time, and 2) the stains on the Shroud are too authentic to be made by a forger.

I think the Shroud of Turin is hard physical evidence of the existence of Jesus.

 

[Numenor]

I think the Shroud of Turin is hard physical evidence of the existence of Jesus.

The shroud may well date from the time of Jesus' death, it may well also be a real burial shroud. But what hard physical evidence do you have that it was actually Jesus' burial shroud?

 

[Ishmael Borg]

Try to stick to scientific arguments and evidence only please, then give your opinion on whether or not you believe Jesus was the man wrapped in the Shroud of Turin. If you're not familiar with the scientific study of the Shroud of Turin, here are a couple of nice places, both were acquired from everyone's friend, Google:

worldwideweb.historian.net/shroud
worldwideweb.world-mysteries.com/sar_2


Based on what I've read, 1) I think it's a possibility that the carbon dating technique is made unreliable based on what might have happened in time, and 2) the stains on the Shroud are too authentic to be made by a forger.

I think the Shroud of Turin is hard physical evidence of the existence of Jesus.

How do the stains' authenticity support the idea that the man wrapped in the shroud was Jesus? Is his the only body that's ever been shrouded?

 

[llDayo]

Easy to fake

 

[random_guy]

Should this be in GA or something?

 

[JohnR7]

give your opinion on whether or not you believe Jesus was the man wrapped in the Shroud of Turin.

I believe that it is real, but even if it is not real, then it is a masterpeice. It is a wonderful work of art that no one can duplicate. In additon to that, it gives a witness and testimony to Jesus having died on the cross for our sins, so that we can be forgiven and so we can be restored to a right relationship with the God who created us. So what is more difficult to believe, that this is the Shroud that Jesus was buried in, or that He was resurrected from the dead on the third day as the Scriptures said in accordance with prophecy? Or is it more difficult to believe that we can be born again and that God desires to restore us to the people that He intended for us to be? So that we can become a child of the Living God.

Four tons of scientific equipment was used to examine the Shroud.

 

[JohnR7]

The shroud may well date from the time of Jesus' death, it may well also be a real burial shroud. But what hard physical evidence do you have that it was actually Jesus' burial shroud?

If it is real, then it had to be Jesus. Because of the crown of thorns on His head, the 39 lashes from the cattail on his back, the nails in his hands and feet and the spear wound on His side. No one else died that way. All of these things and more clearly show up on the shroud.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

Based on what I've read, 1) I think it's a possibility that the carbon dating technique is made unreliable based on what might have happened in time, and 2) the stains on the Shroud are too authentic to be made by a forger.

I think the Shroud of Turin is hard physical evidence of the existence of Jesus.

Good shroud stuff from the Skeptic's Dictionary.

More shroud fun, including a replica from Joe Nickell, at CSICOP.

The executive summary:

1. The carbon dates obtained by 3 different labs testing 3 different samples is legitimate. The amount of contamination needed to cause the estimated age to be off by 1300 years would have to weigh more than the sample itself.

2. The carbon dates agree with the time period in which the shroud made its first documented appearance.

3. The bishop in the region where the shroud first appeared called it a fake.

4. The manufacture, sale, and exhibition of false religious relics was big business then (and now: consider the Holy Mary of the Grilled Cheese Sandwich sold for more than $10K).

 

[GoSeminoles!]

It is a wonderful work of art that no one can duplicate.

Joe Nickell of CSICOP duplicated it using 14th century techniques.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The coins struck over HIS eyes had Ceasar on them...pinning them to the exact dating...and the blood markings on the side, the head, and the feet and hands all are conclusive to Christ.

AS it was prophecied that HIS bones would not be numbered...IE, NOT broken.

SO since Christ was dead b4 the time they broke the legs of the criminals to cause asphyxiation... and bring on a sooner death, and since he had died, they struck HIS side. Which was an uncommon practice...
AND THAT marks this burial clothe as Christ.

Since they never practiced piercing the sides.

Christ was unusual case, and also, his piercing was prophecied.
EVEN a Jewish scholar admits this is Christ.

Thanks for the post.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Finally in 1988 the cloth was radiocarbon dated by three independent labs using accelerator mass spectrometry. The resulting age span of circa 1260–1390 was given added credibility by correct dates obtained from a variety of control swatches, including Cleopatra’s mummy wrapping.

Hate to burst the bubble... BUT, no, in fact the carbon date was misrespresented to the carbon of the fire of that time.

BUT when recarboned, it did in fact show the correct date as to the time of Christ...AND furthermore, a scientist who is Jewish found an ancient 'pollen seed' from an extinct plant that was died off b4 the 1200's BUT was present when Christ lived...

No, we can THINK the lies are true...but I think you need to research the more updated findings.

I just watched a show on this.

POINT is, A Jewish person would NOT want this to be true..BUT he conceded.

 

[Deamiter]

Should this be in GA or something?

Indeed, I moved it here to physical sciences. Perhaps not a perfect fit, but better than C&E (and it'd quickly be lost in GA).

Personally, I can't accept it as real simply because the face isn't laterally elongated. If you wrap a piece of cloth around your face, and then mark some features (your eyes, nose, ears, mouth) when laid out flat, they'll be streached quite a bit horizontally. Either Jesus really had a pinhead, or the thing is fake.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

The coins struck over HIS eyes had Ceasar on them...pinning them to the exact dating...and the blood markings on the side, the head, and the feet and hands all are conclusive to Christ.

Wow, so Jesus was buried in a cloth that came from 1300 years from the future? That's got to be a record of some sort.

I haven't heard the Caesar coin thing before. Do you have a source? And for the record, the Roman coins don't prove it dates to the 1st century. It only proves it doesn't date from before that time. I could put Roman coins on my eyes and that wouldn't mean I date from the 1st century.

Ever notice the portait on the cloth looks very much like the Jesus featured in late Middle Ages European art? This is interesting since nobody knows what Jesus looked like and the very earliest Jesus artwork has him with short hair and clean-shaven, not a Haight-Ashbury hippie.

 

[TheBear]

It is a wonderful work of art that no one can duplicate.

Joe Nickell of CSICOP duplicated it using 14th century techniques.

The ball is in your court, John. What's the next play?

 

[Deamiter]

Hate to burst the bubble... BUT, no, in fact the carbon date was misrespresented to the carbon of the fire of that time.

Again, in order for the carbon from this later date (or any later date in fact) to change the date of the shroud by over 1300 years, the weight of the carbon ALONE would have to outweigh the shroud!

In other words, in order for that dating to be off due to a fire, it would have to combine the decayed C14 from Jesus' time with the weight of the shroud AGAIN in pure carbon (from the atmosphere) to throw off the dating that much.

Further if the contaminating carbon came from a wood fire, not simply from the atmosphere, it would take even more soot (perhaps TWICE again the mass of the shroud itself) to throw off the dating.

Sensational documentaries make for high numbers of viewers, and more ad revenue, but they're not always the best source of information.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am relaying what experts in their fields employed.

PLUS...did you see where I said, A POLLEN SEED was found in the cloth, which was extinct b4 the 1200's....BUT was grown in the time of Christ.

NOW tell me how that happened.


The Jewish scientist said that could occur in like 1 billionith of a chance..and not at all probable. Because the wind would not still have carried an extinct pollen seed like 1200 years later.

{{IN fact...any claim from the 'supposed' artist would to have had the seed...and how would they have found it...or known it was from an extinct plant??}}

The ball is in your court, John. What's the next play?

Sorry...I already quoted and answered that site. Sorry.


AND to answer where someone said the head was wrapped seperate...this was the outer clothe that was laid on top of the body, until they could undress and cover the body with oils...as is proper. But due to the Sabbath, they did not do so and were in fact....heading to go do so, when they discovered He had gone.

 

[theFijian]

If it is real, then it had to be Jesus. Because of the crown of thorns on His head, the 39 lashes from the cattail on his back, the nails in his hands and feet and the spear wound on His side. No one else died that way.

How do you know no one else died this way?

 

[theFijian]

Four tons of scientific equipment was used to examine the Shroud.

So what if they used four tons of scientific equipment, what's important is that they used the correct scientific equipment.

 

[llDayo]

So what if they used four tons of scientific equipment, what's important is that they used the correct scientific equipment.

Not just the correct equipment, but used said equipment correctly!

 

[WarriorAngel]

http://www.shroudstory.com/breaking02.htm

Here is the 'refute of the carbon 14' dating back in 1988.

theFijian, I already answered HOW Christ died distinctively different.

PLUS, the fact that this 'exists' shows how bright the LIGHT radiated from the person to the cloth, it became like a negative effect only duplicated to camera's..however if I remember correctly... THIS was even brighter.

How could it have happened....? During the Resurrection, the Brightness {AS described prior to His death, when Jesus showed the Apostles His transfigured body and how bright it would become}...His BEING is light.

Ok, now someone asked about His eyes and the coins.

http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-coins.htm <~~Here ya go...

About 1980, the Rev. Francis Filas, S.J., of Loyola University in Chicago and Michael Marx, an expert in classical coins, examined the area over the right eye and detected patterns of what appeared to be the letters UCAI (from TIBERIOU CAISARUS). They also found a lituus design (an auger's staff). Father Filas concluded that this was a lituus lepton coin minted by Pontius Pilate between 29 and 32 CE. Over the left eye, Father Filas also identified what he believed to be a Juolia lepton with a distinctive sheaf of barley design. The Juolia lepton was only struck in 29 CE in honor of Tiberius Caesar's wife, Julia.