Shoulds gays allowed to be in the Boy Scouts?

outlaw · Nov 13, 2005

Adiya said:
It's not a comparison, or did you bother to read the rest of my post? I wasn't comparing prostitution to homosexuality, I was comparing the situation of a faith based organization (or religious based), disallowing members based on the fact that their behavior goes against the tenets of said faith (religion). Please read it again.

Before you attack meyes I did read your entire post

I have to agree with ebias assessment that the comparison you are trying to build is flawed. Ultimate you are comparing sexual orientation to prostitution just as your compare Islam to Christianity. The flaw is comparing something someone does (prostitution) with something that is intrinsically part of the person (sexual orientation).

I more accurate comparison would be to say a Christian organization is formed for children and adolescents that was based on their religion and their religion advocates the superiority of the white race.

I really dislike it when somebody responds to one of my posts without reading them in entirety. It's not only unfair, but it's an example of how a bias can make one's view so narrow, that they can't see the face inspite of the nose. (yes I realized that's reversed... think about it.... if your view is so narrow that all you can see is the nose, and not the entire face, then you're missing out.)

Perhaps you should examine and excise your own bias before condemning another for theirs

Stop being so complex in your thinking, where this topic is concerned. The answer is right in front of you..... and HERE IT COMES AGAIN.....

When the topic is discrimination it is impossible to not be complex unless one is trying to justify said discrimination.

I don't care if they're choices or identities. Don't you get that?

Sadly, yes I do. Sadly however you are disregarding the difference as a means of justification for discrimination.

Let me say it again: I don't care if they're choices or identities.
Neither do the boyscouts.

and what does that say about what this organization is teaching these young people? That what you do is more important than who you are? That discrimination is justifiable?

What they care about is that these choices or identities go against the tenets of the faith that the organization is based upon.
PERIOD.

For centuries the Christian faith was used to justify slavery and racism.

The Christian church's main justification of the concept of slavery is based on Genesis 9:25-27. According to the Bible, the worldwide flood had concluded and there were only 8 humans alive on earth: Noah, his wife, their six sons and daughters in law. Noah's son Ham had seen "the nakedness of his father." So, Noah laid a curse -- not on Ham, who was guilty of some type of indiscretion. The sin was transferred to Noah's grandson

Canaan. The curse extended to all of Canaan's descendants: Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "

Christians traditionally believed that Canaan had settled in Africa. The dark skin of Africans became associated with this "curse of Ham." Thus slavery of Africans became religiously justifiable. "This reading of the Book of Genesis merged easily into a medieval iconographic tradition in which devils were always depicted as black. Later pseudo-scientific theories would be built around African skull shapes, dental structure, and body postures, in an attempt to find an unassailable argument--rooted in whatever the most persuasive contemporary idiom happened to be: law, theology, genealogy, or natural science -- why one part of the human race should live in perpetual indebtedness to another." Anthony Pagden, "The Slave Trade, Review of Hugh Thomas' Story of the Atlantic Slave Trade," The New Republic, 1997-DEC-22

did the fact that the people engaged in slavery and racism could biblically justify their actions make their actions good or moral or just?

No, on this basis, everyone who lives by tenets of a faith or religion, has the right to exclude those who do not abide by the tenets. PERIOD.

Everyone is not a national organization that accepts tax monies and makes use of public property. If the BSA wishes to discriminate and advocate discrimination then they should not receive these benefits. The 14th amendment to the constitution declares that all citizens are equal the Boy Scouts declare this is not the case.

I always have wonder at those who call themselves more open minded, when this topic rears it's ugly head. Is it possible that you're so "open minded" that you're missing the point? Stop looking around for complex meaning. The reason is simple, and your complexity merely gets in the way of it.

If memory serves most of the posters here how think that discrimination is wrong and the Boy Scouts are being less than moral because they practice and advocate such discrimination have said it is their business to exclude anyone they wish to however the Boy Scouts should not receive tax payer monies or the support of the US government.

I fail to see how this is not being open minded other than these same individuals are not supporting your personal prejudice regarding homosexuals.

outlaw · Nov 13, 2005

Adiya said:
That is your PERSONAL opinion, and therefore it is not relevant to this conversation because as you have said, we are talking about the opinion of the Christian church, based on biblical and historical documents.

Your argument is a poor one, based on the fallacy of your statement above.

Well

Considering that Christianity is opposition to homosexuality is your opinion by your own decree That is your PERSONAL opinion, and therefore it is not relevant to this conversation

All of your arguments have failed to hit the mark of correction, based on the fact that they are grounded in fallacy, rather than perfect truth. That is what we're talking about here... perfect truth. Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. His truth is perfect. Yours is not. The Christian Church does not accept homosexuality. This is not about my personal view. This is not about your personal view. If it were, then perhaps you'd have an argument. As it stands now, you do not.

What you seem to be saying is this perfect truth is what you personally say it is and anyone who dares to disagree with you or think for themselves is just plain wrong or stupid or deceived.

This again is your opinion. What you are doing here is placing yourself above God's opinion.

And you are placing yourself as an equal to God saying that you and you alone determine how any scripture is to be interpreted and what is and what is not to be believed.

You're not alone in that behavior.
Lucifer said in his heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne
above the stars of God. (I will be like the most High.) Isa 14:13.

Now go look in a mirror.

This is what God thinks of homosexuality.

And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them.
Leviticus 20:13 Youngs Literal Translation

So a good Christian is to murder any and all homosexuals they happen to meet?

Regarding homosexuality and God's laws:
What I think doesn't matter.

This statement flies in the face of the rest of your post.

We are to embrace our laws, in accordance to God's laws. I leave Him with the final judgement on the issue of homosexuality, but on the issue of a faith based organization, you have no right to tell them what they should and shouldn't be allowed to object to regarding applications, and that is what it all comes down to.

Should a faith based organization be able to discriminate based on skin color?

ebia · Nov 13, 2005

Adiya said:
That is your PERSONAL opinion, and therefore it is not relevant to this conversation because as you have said, we are talking about the opinion of the Christian church, based on biblical and historical documents.

I'm not trying to argue that homosexuality is not a sin on this thread - there are plenty of other threads for that - but if people honestly think that opposing homosexuality is a basic tenet of Christianity then it's no wonder the church is going down the tubes.

All of your arguments have failed to hit the mark of correction, based on the fact that they are grounded in fallacy, rather than perfect truth. That is what we're talking about here... perfect truth. Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. His truth is perfect. Yours is not. The Christian Church does not accept homosexuality.

Some of the Christian Church does. But that's beside the point. None of the church should think that opposing any particular sin is the fundamental tenet and purpose of the Christian Church. Christ did not say the two great commandments are "Love the Lord your God with all your heart..., and beat up the gays." That's why your analogy with fails.

Oh don't be sorry. I don't want the final say. I never did. God has the final say,and based on God's word, you are incorrect, and illogical in your argument.

God's Word (Christ) never said anything about homosexuality.

This again is your opinion. What you are doing here is placing yourself above God's opinion.

No, I'm placing my understanding of God's opinion above your understanding of God's opinion.

What I think doesn't matter.
What you think doesn't matter.
You're not alone in that behavior.
Lucifer said in his heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne
above the stars of God. (I will be like the most High.) Isa 14:13.

You have said "an identity over which I have no choice cannot go against the Christian faith". You are in error.

This is why:

Man has not been given the authority and power to define the nature of crime. That authority belongs to the creator of all mankind, and rightly so. Mankind's responsibilities are the embrace the laws in accordance with the laws of God.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Romans 3:19

Another example of self-made rules.

This is what God thinks of homosexuality.

And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them.
Leviticus 20:13 Youngs Literal Translation

Regarding homosexuality and God's laws:
God is the final judge.

We are to embrace our laws, in accordance to God's laws. I leave Him with the final judgement on the issue of homosexuality, but on the issue of a faith based organization, you have no right to tell them what they should and shouldn't be allowed to object to regarding applications, and that is what it all comes down to.

Completely avoiding the point, which was that Boy Scouts pick on this sin, while ignoring the sins that everyone commits - gluttony, greed, gossip, etc. Sins which St Paul himself puts on a par with whatever homosexuality he was addressing.

Your typical accusation of "evading your questions" is wearing thin.

Then address my examples and stop avoiding them.

ebia · Nov 13, 2005

Adiya said:
Again, you have shown that you seek to determine what is a lie,

Do you seriously think that the Boy Scouts doesn't include anybody who ever tells lies and gets rid of anyone they find out who does?

and who is a theif, in a way that does not mesh with God's principles. You are ignoring the tenets of Christianity, (and for an atheist I would not bring this up but you call yourself a Christian, so it is applicable). Show proof of your statement. Where in God's word does it say that people are not allowed to purchase imports?

That's not quite what I said - I refered to "cheap imports". The implication being that, like most cheap imports, they are produced at low cost by child labour and/or other unfair exploitation of 3rd world workers, which amounts to systemic theft.

Don't avoid my question.

LOL.

Tangnefedd · Nov 13, 2005

I know one thing for sure, I would much sooner my young grandsons mixed with decent gays than having anything to do with judgemental, fundamentalist bigots!

"" · Nov 13, 2005

outlaw said:
Before you attack meyes I did read your entire post

I have to agree with ebias assessment that the comparison you are trying to build is flawed.

Well of course you do. Just like Jesus agrees with God. Who could expect you to believe anything different than ebia.

Ultimate you are comparing sexual orientation to prostitution just as your compare Islam to Christianity. The flaw is comparing something someone does (prostitution) with something that is intrinsically part of the person (sexual orientation).

No, the FLAW is when you begin to assume that sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person.

Orientation means "the act of orienting or being oriented", hence, it is learned. A learned behavior, is not an intrinsic part of a person in such a way that it cannot be unlearned. See the DSM manuals, and just about any psychiatry journal for more information on changing behavior.

I more accurate comparison would be to say a Christian organization is formed for children and adolescents that was based on their religion and their religion advocates the superiority of the white race.

That would be an illogical statement being that I myself am not of the "superior white race" and my brothers were in the scouts. See, this is what happens when you don't research a topic, and you just begin to spew out empty rhetoric, assuming that it's fact. Facts have a basis in truth. Your comments did not.

Again, no surprise here at your agreement with ebia. None whatsoever.

Perhaps you should examine and excise your own bias before condemning another for theirs

I have no bias. My own point of view has not become a part of this debate, where as yours (and ebia's ) has. I don't personalize debate topics, and I rarely bring in my own opinion. If you were to guess my opinion on homosexuality, as we both know, there is a 50/50 chance you'd be wrong.

When the topic is discrimination it is impossible to not be complex unless one is trying to justify said discrimination.

Oh, you don't have to school me on discrimination. Trust me.

what does that say about what this organization is teaching these young people?

It says that these young people are being taught the basic tenets of the faith that is at the basis of the organization, that's what it says. If their parents have a problem with that, then I suppose they should shop around for another organization.

That what you do is more important than who you are?

What you do? But you and ebia seem to be of the mind that homosexuality IS who you are. Having a change of mind, are we?

That discrimination is justifiable?

Why do you keep throwing discrimination into this, when it has nothing whatsoever to do with it? I just love the way you white folks bounce discrimination around as if it were something you were used to dealing with on a daily basis. If you want to discuss discrimination, then I may very well add a personal tone to the topic, but I didn't know that we were discussing discrimination. Discrimination is when you're not black enough, not scandinavian enough, not jewish enough, and frankly, people aren't quite sure what you are, but they know you can't be 100% of anything, so you're excluded from all of the above. That's what happens when you have a blond blue eyed grandmother, a jewish grandfather, a dark islander, and a middle eastern, all mix up into the pot that I call my family. But you know what? Discrimination is a part of life. Everybody gets some of it. Everybody. This isn't about discrimination though, and no matter how many times you stop your feet, that won't make it so.

For centuries the Christian faith was used to justify slavery and racism.

Seriously... stop telling me about slavery and racism ok?

did the fact that the people engaged in slavery and racism could biblically justify their actions make their actions good or moral or just?

Why don't you ask the dark africans who sold the dark africans to the whites? Or did you miss that part during your education? While you're at it, you might ask the folks who sold the Irish slaves to whites as well. Or did you not know about them either?

See, that's another thing that separates me from the average african american (besides the fact that I'm light skinned, and have a variety of other races mixed in as well). I don't buy into the "blame the white man for everything" deal. It's illogical.

Move on.

ebia · Nov 13, 2005

AdiyaOrientation means "the act of orienting or being oriented" said:
Wrong definition - check a better dictionary. So your logic falls at the first hurdle.

That would be an illogical statement being that I myself am not of the "superior white race" and my brothers were in the scouts. See, this is what happens when you don't research a topic, and you just begin to spew out empty rhetoric, assuming that it's fact. Facts have a basis in truth. Your comments did not.

Click to expand...

He gave you an equivalent hypothetical similar situation. What your personal race is completely irrelevent. He wasn't suggesting you espouse a "superior white race".

I have no bias. My own point of view has not become a part of this debate, where as yours (and ebia's ) has. I don't personalize debate topics, and I rarely bring in my own opinion. If you were to guess my opinion on homosexuality, as we both know, there is a 50/50 chance you'd be wrong.

Click to expand...

You have certainly given your of what God thinks. And your opinion on what the motives of the Boy Scouts are, and a heap of other things. But you seem to have difficulty distinguishing between your opinion and facts.

Oh, you don't have to school me on discrimination. Trust me.

Click to expand...

It seems someone needs to.

It says that these young people are being taught the basic tenets of the faith that is at the basis of the organization, that's what it says.

Click to expand...

To be bigotted hypocritical bullies is a basic tenet of which faith exactly? Because that is what is being taught.

If their parents have a problem with that, then I suppose they should shop around for another organization.

Click to expand...

Definitely.

Why do you keep throwing discrimination into this, when it has nothing whatsoever to do with it? I just love the way you white folks bounce discrimination around as if it were something you were used to dealing with on a daily basis. If you want to discuss discrimination, then I may very well add a personal tone to the topic, but I didn't know that we were discussing discrimination. Discrimination is when you're not black enough, not scandinavian enough, not jewish enough, and frankly, people aren't quite sure what you are, but they know you can't be 100% of anything, so you're excluded from all of the above. That's what happens when you have a blond blue eyed grandmother, a jewish grandfather, a dark islander, and a middle eastern, all mix up into the pot that I call my family. But you know what? Discrimination is a part of life. Everybody gets some of it. Everybody. This isn't about discrimination though, and no matter how many times you stop your feet, that won't make it so.

Click to expand...

But because you say "it isn't about discrimination" that makes it so? Because you have offered no reason for that position beyond claiming "I know more about discrimination than you do."

Why don't you ask the dark africans who sold the dark africans to the whites? Or did you miss that part during your education? While you're at it, you might ask the folks who sold the Irish slaves to whites as well. Or did you not know about them either?

See, that's another thing that separates me from the average african american (besides the fact that I'm light skinned, and have a variety of other races mixed in as well). I don't buy into the "blame the white man for everything" deal. It's illogical.

Click to expand...

That may or may not be correct, but either way it's completely and utterly irrelevent to the point.

"" · Nov 13, 2005

ebia said:
Wrong definition - check a better dictionary. So your logic falls at the first hurdle.

He gave you an equivalent hypothetical similar situation. What your personal race is completely irrelevent. He wasn't suggesting you espouse a "superior white race".

You have certainly given your of what God thinks. And your opinion on what the motives of the Boy Scouts are, and a heap of other things. But you seem to have difficulty distinguishing between your opinion and facts.

It seems someone needs to.

To be bigotted hypocritical bullies is a basic tenet of which faith exactly? Because that is what is being taught.

Definitely.

But because you say "it isn't about discrimination" that makes it so? Because you have offered no reason for that position beyond claiming "I know more about discrimination than you do."

That may or may not be correct, but either way it's completely and utterly irrelevent to the point.

So now you're answering for him too? Priceless.

No matter what I say, your response is that it's irrelevent, that I need to be better educated, and that I seem to have difficulty comprehending.

You're a walking, talking, bundle of insecurities, aren't you?

Go take a debate course ebia. Your approach is illogical, and within it are the manifestations of one who is poorly prepared.

When you have something REAL to discuss, you let me know.

Baten · Nov 13, 2005

bugg1 said:
Childeren are too impressionable.

So you think they would be making out with thier partner infront of them.

Rae · Nov 13, 2005

Well, considering where you live

--Illinois? Illinois has Boy Scout chapters. We have at least one locally in my home town. They appear at our annual town fair, selling food. I have not and will not give them a dime for their organization while they discriminate against gay and atheist boys.

sethad · Nov 13, 2005

i'd never let my kids join boy scouts or any other organization. but thats for other reasons too.

SimplyMe · Nov 13, 2005

Adiya said:
No, the FLAW is when you begin to assume that sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person.

Orientation means "the act of orienting or being oriented", hence, it is learned. A learned behavior, is not an intrinsic part of a person in such a way that it cannot be unlearned. See the DSM manuals, and just about any psychiatry journal for more information on changing behavior.

I would submit that "orientation" is the wrong word in this situation. We have any number of oxymorons floating around the English language, so it should be reasonable to expect that orientation might have a slightly different meaning in this context.

However, since you mentioned the DSM for information about changing behavior, a book published by the APA, lets look at the statement the APA published about homosexuality:

APA said:
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice? No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?

No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.

Dislike · Nov 13, 2005

Adiya said:
So now you're answering for him too? Priceless.

No matter what I say, your response is that it's irrelevent, that I need to be better educated, and that I seem to have difficulty comprehending.

You're a walking, talking, bundle of insecurities, aren't you?

Go take a debate course ebia. Your approach is illogical, and within it are the manifestations of one who is poorly prepared.

When you have something REAL to discuss, you let me know.

Goodness, so clever!

crazyfingers · Nov 13, 2005

The Boy Scouts founder was gay.

In England, Lord Robert S.S. Baden-Powell, "the Hero of Mafeking," had started a program of training for boys with his book "Scouting for Boys" in 1908. The book became an instant best seller. "He was later proclaimed Chief Scout of the World." 2 A number of his biographers have concluded from the available evidence that he was gay. Tim Jeal wrote: "The available evidence points inexorably to the conclusion that Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual." 3 There is no evidence that he acted on his sexual orientation.

Religious Tolerance

crazyfingers · Nov 13, 2005

sethad said:
i'd never let my kids join boy scouts or any other organization. but thats for other reasons too.

Yup. My boys will not be allowed to join the BSA because of the BSA's discrimination against gays and atheists. Of course my boys wouldn't want to join after I've explained to them why.

sethad · Nov 13, 2005

crazyfingers said:
Yup. My boys will not be allowed to join the BSA because of the BSA's discrimination against gays and atheists. Of course my boys wouldn't want to join after I've explained to them why.

I'd teach my kids to respect everybody no matter what their beliefs are. and I'd let the go ahead and decide for themselves what to believe in.

my main reason why I wouldnt is cases like this: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/national/main560304.shtml
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7326932/

etc.

boy scouts arent the only group that have problems, of course, but i'd keep my kids out of any of them.

419gam · Nov 13, 2005

I just wanted to correct a common misconception. Gays can be allowed into BSA, its up to the individual troop to make that decision. Not so sure about athiests, although most of the time I was in scouts I was agnoisticl, I just paid lip service to the religous aspects. I didn't see my lack of faith as any reason to miss out on rock climbing and river rafting and such.

crazyfingers · Nov 13, 2005

419gam said:
I just wanted to correct a common misconception. Gays can be allowed into BSA, its up to the individual troop to make that decision. Not so sure about athiests, although most of the time I was in scouts I was agnoisticl, I just paid lip service to the religous aspects. I didn't see my lack of faith as any reason to miss out on rock climbing and river rafting and such.

It is the policy of the BSA to exclude gays and those who do not believe in a supreme being. Some local councils or troops may silently ignore those policies but the fact remains that it is the policy of the BSA to exclude gays and atheists.

If you don't believe that, please look it up.

ChristianCenturion · Nov 13, 2005

crazyfingers said:
The Boy Scouts founder was gay.

Correction, you have a group of advocates for homosexuality that wish to make claims about many famous people in history.
That's all.

crazyfingers · Nov 13, 2005

ChristianCenturion said:
Correction, you have a group of advocates for homosexuality that wish to make claims about many famous people in history.
That's all.

Is there a reason why you think that the BSA website would admit that he was gay?

Shoulds gays allowed to be in the Boy Scouts?

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