Should you need a threeletter excuse to behave like a descent human being?

[Marcel]

Regardless of my 'seculiar humanism' (man I dislike labels ), I think I can safely say one shouldn't turn God into a lame three-letter excuse for devilish thoughts and deeds...

...but if you're not going to apply yourself to make a positive contribution to your environment, what kind of Christian would you be anyway?

If (IF) "because God said so" is the desicive motive for 'doing the right thing', wouldn't there be something horribly wrong?
If you need those beliefs, or being involved with your church, in your life, for whatever reason, that's one thing... but...

I guess the question is: should, when push comes to shove, believing or not believing in God matter?

And what do God's 2cts on the matter say about God?
(meaning God as portrayed in the Bible, rather than whichever personal concept you might have of him.)

 

[Havoc]

If I'm hearing you correctly you are asking...

Should "God said so" be an acceptable excuse for intolerance, hatred, and misuse of other people?

Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting what you asked.

 

[Marcel]

a motive for doing the right thing havoc...

I'll edit the o.p. to make sure I'm understood correctly. Thanks for your question.

 

[seebs]

So, to clarify, your question is "should you only act morally because God says so"... This question is exceptionally hard to translate to the traditional Christian set of assumptions.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"should, when push comes to shove, believing or not believing in God matter? "

Matter to if your going to heaven or hell? Yes. No one is moral if the reject the most important moral set by God. God is the standard to how's that decided. And if you reject him your far from his standards. Now I talk to athiests all the time. In fact most people I work with are athiests. I don't give them the cold shoulder or ask them if they are ready for hell when I see them in the morning. I pray for them a lot. If they have any questions for me about Christianity I'm more then happy to answer them. Only God can make us righteous, we, ourselves are dead in sin.

"meaning God as portrayed in the Bible, rather than whichever personal concept you might have of him"

Well if your god doesn't match the God of the Christian bible then your god is just a false god that doesn't exist.

 

[Marcel]

Originally posted by Project 86
"should, when push comes to shove, believing or not believing in God matter? "

Matter to if your going to heaven or hell? Yes. No one is moral if the reject the most important moral set by God. God is the standard to how's that decided. And if you reject him your far from his standards. Now I talk to athiests all the time. In fact most people I work with are athiests. I don't give them the cold shoulder or ask them if they are ready for hell when I see them in the morning. I pray for them a lot. If they have any questions for me about Christianity I'm more then happy to answer them. Only God can make us righteous, we, ourselves are dead in sin.

"meaning God as portrayed in the Bible, rather than whichever personal concept you might have of him"

Well if your god doesn't match the God of the Christian bible then your god is just a false god that doesn't exist.

There's choices you believe will have consequenses, and there's choices that certainly have consequences.

If you have to walk around believing all those nice colleagues are facing eternal torment in the sea of flames, that's something you'll have to live with I'm affraid.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"There's choices you believe will have consequenses, and there's choices that certainly have consequences."

Well choosing to accepts God's gift of salvation certianly does have consequences or rewards depending how you decide. If you ask me how can I be so certain since we can't test it in a test tube I'll say seek and you'll find. Open up the door to Jesus and release any pride or sin that may be stoping you from doing it. It would be the best choice of your life.

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Project 86
"There's choices you believe will have consequenses, and there's choices that certainly have consequences."

Well choosing to accepts God's gift of salvation certianly does have consequences or rewards depending how you decide. If you ask me how can I be so certain since we can't test it in a test tube I'll say seek and you'll find. Open up the door to Jesus and release any pride or sin that may be stoping you from doing it. It would be the best choice of your life.

Actually you believe it has consequences. Whether it actually does or not remains to be seen.

As for the rest of your post, we've all heard the religious rhetoric about you have to believe to find a being you don't believe in. It doesn't mean any more when you say it than the hundred times before we've heard it.

 

[amie]

Originally posted by Marcel
I guess the question is: should, when push comes to shove, believing or not believing in God matter? 

when it comes to moral behaviors? no. however each person's belief is individual so to some people the believing in God and not believing in God does matter to them in terms of morality.

basically your question is "Do I need to be a believer to be a decent person?" and of course the answer is no. I think that there are many factors that may cause our moral behaviors to evolve and while religion may be one of them for some people it is essentially culture, society, familial upbringing, our own set of moral virtues that we attain in life through varying degrees of life experiences, thought processes and what not...

 

[Marcel]

Originally posted by amie
when it comes to moral behaviors? no. however each person's belief is individual so to some people the believing in God and not believing in God does matter to them in terms of morality.

basically your question is "Do I need to be a believer to be a decent person?" and of course the answer is no. I think that there are many factors that may cause our moral behaviors to evolve and while religion may be one of them for some people it is essentially culture, society, familial upbringing, our own set of moral virtues that we attain in life through varying degrees of life experiences, thought processes and what not...

Thanks Amie

Now let's wait and see who'd (dis)agree with that.

 

[LouisBooth]

I would agree with amie, nothing that there are "moral hethens" that we see. In terms of being "moral" they may succeed, though it would mesh right along with what "God says" as well.

 

[Havoc]

So if there are moral people ( i assume you incorrectly used the word "hethens"(sic) to mean non-Christians) without God then it stands to reason that we do not require your God to be Moral.

 

[LouisBooth]

"without God then it stands to reason that we do not require your God to be Moral."

I would say you are correct but only because the foundation of morality was laid down by God long ago and thus you still draw from it. Being moral and being saved are 2 different things though

 

[Marcel]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"without God then it stands to reason that we do not require your God to be Moral."

I would say you are correct but only because the foundation of morality was laid down by God long ago and thus you still draw from it. Being moral and being saved are 2 different things though

That statement TMHO brings us back to the original post.

Should it matter whether this moral code was laid down by God, would it be any less of a sensible set of guidelines coming from an earthly source?

I'd say... If it makes sense it makes sense. If there's a nessecity to uphold it, there's a nessecity to uphold it. Regardless of the existence of a higher power.

To add another question...

...doesn't choosing and acting, be it 'good' or 'wrongly', on behalf of a higher power, constitute as the shunting of responsibility? (which TMO is an immoral thing in itself)

 

[LouisBooth]

"Should it matter whether this moral code was laid down by God, would it be any less of a sensible set of guidelines coming from an earthly source?
"

The means matter because if it is just an "eathly source" the spirit of the law christ talked about when he came back to clarify the law would be missed.


"constitute as the shunting of responsibility? "

Not at all.

 

[Blessed-one]

Should it matter whether this moral code was laid down by God, would it be any less of a sensible set of guidelines coming from an earthly source?

sure, for human aren't perfect, we change the moral code all the time, eg, now that homosexuality is considered to be ok in societies.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

The Ten Commandments, or more simply and eloquently, 'love your neighbor as yourself.' whether God inspired or not, are simply common sense when it comes down to it. Be honest, don't covet (the grass is not always greener in your neighbor's lawn), don't judge, have faith that there is enough.

When you add, 'do this or receive eternal damnation' to the mix it takes away from the common sense aspect. Look around at the world today. Is this not Hell already? If we truly loved our neighbor as ourself, not the one down the street, but also the ones starving in Africa or South America or even here in the USA, the ones dying of disease, the ones willing to kill themselves (and/or others) for respect and freedom, the ones dying because of injustice, then we would find Heaven here on Earth.

This is what Jesus, and all the other 'masters' through time have said and taught. Some may have gone about it the wrong way, but the bottom line is we ARE all one and need to live and act accordingly, not selfishly, not "I'm right and you're wrong," not "my God is better than your god(s)."

So, No Marcel, it matters not if one believes in God if one lives a moral or selfless life, for the 'reward' is the action, the love, itself. Truly, is there a better feeling than helping someone, just for the sake of helping?

 

[Marcel]

Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
The Ten Commandments, or more simply and eloquently, 'love your neighbor as yourself.' whether God inspired or not, are simply common sense when it comes down to it. Be honest, don't covet (the grass is not always greener in your neighbor's lawn), don't judge, have faith that there is enough.

When you add, 'do this or receive eternal damnation' to the mix it takes away from the common sense aspect. Look around at the world today. Is this not Hell already? If we truly loved our neighbor as ourself, not the one down the street, but also the ones starving in Africa or South America or even here in the USA, the ones dying of disease, the ones willing to kill themselves (and/or others) for respect and freedom, the ones dying because of injustice, then we would find Heaven here on Earth.

This is what Jesus, and all the other 'masters' through time have said and taught. Some may have gone about it the wrong way, but the bottom line is we ARE all one and need to live and act accordingly, not selfishly, not "I'm right and you're wrong," not "my God is better than your god(s)."

So, No Marcel, it matters not if one believes in God if one lives a moral or selfless life, for the 'reward' is the action, the love, itself. Truly, is there a better feeling than helping someone, just for the sake of helping?

 

No disagreement there buddy.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Truly, is there a better feeling than helping someone, just for the sake of helping?"

Agreed, and as Christians this should be emphasised, but salvation is A VERY important step in this process. Thus it does matter what you believe. Christ didn't tell people, its okay if you don't believe in me, he said it was a neccessity.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
The Ten Commandments, or more simply and eloquently, 'love your neighbor as yourself.' whether God inspired or not, are simply common sense when it comes down to it. Be honest, don't covet (the grass is not always greener in your neighbor's lawn), don't judge, have faith that there is enough.

When you add, 'do this or receive eternal damnation' to the mix it takes away from the common sense aspect. Look around at the world today. Is this not Hell already? If we truly loved our neighbor as ourself, not the one down the street, but also the ones starving in Africa or South America or even here in the USA, the ones dying of disease, the ones willing to kill themselves (and/or others) for respect and freedom, the ones dying because of injustice, then we would find Heaven here on Earth.

This is what Jesus, and all the other 'masters' through time have said and taught. Some may have gone about it the wrong way, but the bottom line is we ARE all one and need to live and act accordingly, not selfishly, not "I'm right and you're wrong," not "my God is better than your god(s)."

So, No Marcel, it matters not if one believes in God if one lives a moral or selfless life, for the 'reward' is the action, the love, itself. Truly, is there a better feeling than helping someone, just for the sake of helping?

Hmm if you what you say is true then how do you reconcile Jesus saying what He did below?


Matt 22:35-40
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him {a question}  testing Him,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
(NAU)

Notice the greatest commandment is to love God.  It really includes all others but Jesus taught that not just believing in God but loving Him is a necessity of morality.